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Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by epgui on Saturday December 28, 2024 @01:32PM (#42533233)
The only part of this that is totally implausible is the notion that Magnus wouldn't be super familiar with the rules.

I'm not saying I agree with the rule or the specific way it was applied... But Magnus definitely knows the rules.

Edit: for people downvoting... Can you please explain how the world's best chess player of all times wouldn't be familiar with FIDE rules? How is that even plausible? All of the players who compete at these events know the rules.

Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by elif on Saturday December 28, 2024 @03:29PM (#42534353)
The rules themselves aren't clear. In fact the rules say that jeans themselves are allowed. The rule is about having frayed worn, or light portions on jeans.

Magnus pants were fine. He is absolutely correct that they were singling him out and you can look back to many recent tournaments to see the clear double standard.

Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by epgui on Saturday December 28, 2024 @03:46PM (#42534551)
The rules say no such thing, and seem pretty clear to me.

    4.10.1. The dress code is strictly observed for the
    tournament and all the official events and press
    conferences.

    4.10.1.1. Dress code for men.

      Shoes: Oxfords, loafers, leather shoes or boots, classic
    suite shoes.

      Dark-coloured pants: black, navy, grey, beige, brown, in
    any case unicoloured. No bright colours.

      Long-sleeved light-coloured (white, light blue, beige,
    brown, etc.), blue or black shirt, in any case
    unicoloured. No bright colours.

      Dark-coloured jacket, waistcoat or cardigan with
    buttons: black, navy, grey, beige, brown, in any case
    unicoloured. No bright colours.

      Jacket, waistcoat or cardigan may be taken off during
    play.

    Tie is not mandatory.

    [...]

    4.10.1.3. No players with t-shirts, jeans, shorts,
    sneakers, baseball caps or inappropriate dress are allowed
    in the playing area. Any requests to wear national or
    traditional dress shall be approved by FIDE Supervisor.

    [...]

    4.10.9. If a player fails to fulfil his/her duties listed
    in Articles 4.10.1, 4.10.4 – 4.10.8, he/she can be
    penalised by FIDE Council as follows: 5% of his/her prize
    money shall be forfeited to the Organiser and a further 5%
    to FIDE for each breach. In cases of serious misconduct,
    the player may be disqualified from the event.
Reference: https://www.fide.com/docs/regulations/wrbc_regulations_2024_...
Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by david-gpu on Saturday December 28, 2024 @03:58PM (#42534667)
So it says nothing about jeans at all? Magnus was wearing unicoloured navy jeans at the time, which fall within the rules you quoted.

Refusing to match him with a competitor because of this, effectively preventing him to compete, was disproportionate regardless.

Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by epgui on Saturday December 28, 2024 @04:04PM (#42534714)
I thought it was clear from the context and phrasing that "dark-coloured pants" excluded jeans, but in case there was any doubt:

    4.10.1.3. No players with t-shirts, jeans, shorts,
    sneakers, baseball caps or inappropriate dress are allowed
    in the playing area. Any requests to wear national or
    traditional dress shall be approved by FIDE Supervisor.
Reference: https://www.fide.com/docs/regulations/wrbc_regulations_2024_...
Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by david-gpu on Saturday December 28, 2024 @04:18PM (#42534837)
Thank you, I had missed the section about jeans. I stand corrected.
Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by munch117 on Saturday December 28, 2024 @04:25PM (#42534896)
To a Norwegian reader, blue jeans are definitely included in "pants".

It's entirely possible to read 4.10.1.1, conclude that blue jeans are fine, and then skim over 4.10.1.3.

However the Carlsens read it, after reading it, years will have passed. Carlsen didn't dress like he did after a studious read of the rules. He just put on some nice clothes that were no different from what he usually wears at tournaments.

Except he forgot a belt. A proper organiser would have offered to lend him one.

Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by epgui on Saturday December 28, 2024 @04:28PM (#42534914)
I would assume (but can't know for sure, of course) that Magnus receives the rules before every event, and that he probably has people to help prepare/brief him on anything he needs to know.

He's not a regular participant, Magnus is almost an institution of his own.

Either way, it's literally his job to follow the FIDE rules (which is unusual but true), and he's the best in the world at his job.

---

> "It's entirely possible to read 4.10.1.1, conclude that blue jeans are fine, and then skim over 4.10.1.3."

In all fairness I originally did the same, so I hear ya. But I'm not a pro at this.

Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by RandomThoughts3 on Saturday December 28, 2024 @04:48PM (#42535072)
> He's not a regular participant, Magnus is almost an institution of his own.

He is also very much no in agreement with FIDE (a tradition for chess champions - see Fischer, Kasparov). And to be honest FIDE is on FIFA level when it comes to being dodgy as an organisation so it’s hardly surprising.

Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by wongarsu on Sunday December 29, 2024 @09:16AM (#42540099)
When you attend a conference, how much time do you dedicate to studying the terms of the event?
Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by sdwr on Sunday December 29, 2024 @01:49AM (#42538162)
Presumably after years of coming to these events in dress pants and jackets, around other players all wearing suits, he would know the rules without having to read them. It's not like they changed the rules just to catch him out.

This is some combination of

- "I'm above the law"

- teenage rebellion

- protest against the system

Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by jasonjmcghee on Monday December 30, 2024 @01:32AM (#42547046)
He's in his 30s
Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by HarHarVeryFunny on Sunday December 29, 2024 @11:03AM (#42540726)
It's interesting how much simpler the dress code for women is.

4. 10. 1. 2. Dress code for women.

Classic shoes.

Trouser or skirt suit or dress, preferably unicoloured, but not mandatory

Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by GuB-42 on Sunday December 29, 2024 @11:56AM (#42541098)
Women in general have much more freedom in the way they can dress. There are also higher expectations and more unwritten rules.
Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by HarHarVeryFunny on Sunday December 29, 2024 @02:08PM (#42542117)
Agreed, but on the surface of it one might think that given the more varied ways that women might dress, they need more rather than less written rules for women vs men to control the way they actually do dress (at FIDE events).

So, the logical conclusion is perhaps, no surprise, that FIDE don't really want to enforce a strict dress code, but rather want to promote the sport, and that translates differently into dress codes (or lack of them) for men vs women...

Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by rasz on Monday December 30, 2024 @11:41AM (#42550883)
>The dress code is strictly observed for the tournament and all the official events and press conferences.

Meanwhile Arkady Dvorkovich, President of FIDE : https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/1hntyjb/arkady_dvork...

Dvorkovich is putins puppet, covering for Medvedev when putin was pretending to take a break.

Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by addicted on Sunday December 29, 2024 @08:58AM (#42539974)
Honestly, it doesn’t matter whether the rules are clear or not. FIDE isn’t a rule enforcement agency.

FIDE is an agency that exists to promote and develop chess.

Magnus Carlsen is the biggest draw in the chess world by far.

A minor dress code violation should have been dealt with a fine as the rules very much allow for the benefit of the game.

Also, I don’t think there’s a single player who would complain about that (well, other than Kramnik, but Kramnik complains that spectators breathe too loud and that’s cheating).

And then FIDE should have stepped back and thought about the recent growth in the popularity of chess, since the pandemic and thanks to the work of the likes of Magnus and Gothamchess and should have reconsidered the strict dress code rules in the first place.

Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by wirrbel on Saturday December 28, 2024 @01:35PM (#42533267)
He knows the rules, IMHO it's his way of pulling out of FIDE competitions without a face loss.

Not very sportsmanlike behaviour, I must say (and I am saying this as someone who admires MC).

Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by beepbopboopp on Saturday December 28, 2024 @01:46PM (#42533373)
How are you going to invent his intentions and then judge him for your inventions? This message board deserves better, the people deserve better.
Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by epgui on Saturday December 28, 2024 @02:02PM (#42533514)
While I don't think it's fair to presume anything about his intentions, it's totally fair to presume he is aware of the rules. He's the world's best chess player of all time, and it's not his first FIDE event.
Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by codr7 on Saturday December 28, 2024 @05:32PM (#42535416)
I think it's totally fair to ask the question, given that he seems to be involved in starting a competing organization.
Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by astrange on Saturday December 28, 2024 @10:20PM (#42537187)
> He's the world's best chess player of all time

This one is hard to tell because not all of them have been alive at the same time. Morphy was really, really good, but in the 1850s.

Currently there's Ivanchuk, who is good enough to beat anyone but has no stamina so can't win tournaments reliably enough to be world champion.

Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by epgui on Saturday December 28, 2024 @10:44PM (#42537330)
There’s no way Morphy at his peak would beat Magnus at his peak (and the same goes for any of the old champions)— The way chess is played today is very different. Morphy would have needed to start from scratch and re-learn the game today from a young age to have any chance… But then he wouldn’t be the same Morphy.
Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by gambiting on Sunday December 29, 2024 @04:02AM (#42538687)
Or maybe Magnus wouldn't be able to cope with how Morphy plays the game and would lose. Both of them were/are used to how the game was played in their time.
Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by 8note on Sunday December 29, 2024 @05:51AM (#42539168)
magnus likely has every game morphy ever played, along with all of his contemporaries memorized, along with at every position in each game, what a strong engine would prefer as a move. morphy would probably be an IM by todays standards, without modernizing
Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by bbarnett on Saturday December 28, 2024 @03:49PM (#42534586)
I don't think the prior was a valid tact, but aren't people here inventing reasons for the jeans ban, and then judging the org for that too?
Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by elif on Saturday December 28, 2024 @03:30PM (#42534369)
This is fully unsubstantiated and very unlikely supposition for anyone following the chess scene
Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by monkey_monkey on Saturday December 28, 2024 @02:06PM (#42533551)
Given that he removed himself from the World Chess Championship, the thought that he needs a pretext to pull out of lesser competitions is ludicrous.
Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by cjbprime on Saturday December 28, 2024 @03:14PM (#42534198)
Given the other ways he's currently in conflict in FIDE, the idea is that he finds being disqualified in this way strategically useful, and a way to garner public sentiment that delegitimizes them.
Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by david-gpu on Saturday December 28, 2024 @04:03PM (#42534711)
Magnus didn't make FIDE enforce a particularly asinine interpretation of their own rules. If they wanted to, they could have issued a clarification or rectification in the 24 hours after the event, but they haven't.

Both parties could have handled this much better.

Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by epgui on Saturday December 28, 2024 @04:07PM (#42534745)
> "a particularly asinine interpretation of their own rules"

It's pretty black and white.

    4.10.1.3. No players with t-shirts, jeans, shorts,
    sneakers, baseball caps or inappropriate dress are allowed
    in the playing area. Any requests to wear national or
    traditional dress shall be approved by FIDE Supervisor.
Reference: https://www.fide.com/docs/regulations/wrbc_regulations_2024_...
Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by david-gpu on Saturday December 28, 2024 @04:14PM (#42534797)
Thank you! I stand corrected. I had missed that portion of your quote.
Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by epgui on Saturday December 28, 2024 @04:17PM (#42534830)
I apologize for twisting the knife but-- the proper thing to do would have been to research the rules at the source, not to make up stuff or repeat things from third parties.

Wish I had found that section earlier, but I'm less familiar with the chess regulations so it took me a bit to assemble all of the essential parts.

Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by david-gpu on Saturday December 28, 2024 @04:21PM (#42534863)
> I apologize for twisting the knife but-- the proper thing to do would have been to research the rules at the source, not to make up stuff or repeat things from third parties.

Well, you are the one who posted the quote, which I used as the basis for my comment. I thought I had read it twice over, and saw no reference to jeans, hence my question. Not statement, question. I did not make anything up.

Did you by any chance add the relevant section of the rules to your comment after I asked a question? The proper thing to do would have been to quote the relevant portion of the rules, instead of adding that later.

So, no. Apologies not accepted. Sorry.

Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by Dylan16807 on Sunday December 29, 2024 @12:35AM (#42537818)
> the proper thing to do would have been to research the rules at the source, not to make up stuff or repeat things from third parties.

When you're the third party and they trusted your quoting skills, that criticism is pretty weak.

Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by stevage on Saturday December 28, 2024 @04:37PM (#42534977)
Not true at all. I've seen Hikaru talk about how he doesn't usually read the rules of tournaments and has been surprised by them.
Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by KennyBlanken on Saturday December 28, 2024 @07:53PM (#42536372)
I have no sympathy for a professional player who can't be bothered, or thinks it's beneath them, to read the rules of the tournaments they're participating in. It is literally your job. I'm guessing these guys are sponsored, get income from speaking appearances, tutoring, and so on. If you're getting paid for what you do, you have no right to complain about having to read tournament rules. At the same time, it behooves tournament organizers to standardize on rules, or at least summarize how their rules differ from some standard.

It makes me wonder if he's been enabled by tournament organizers being lax about enforcement of the rules for top players, when it should be the opposite - those with the most experience should be held to the highest standards because they should know better.

Women athletes who are forced to wear what amounts to underwear when the men aren't - they have a valid complaint about uniform standards. This sounds like a bunch of whiny silver-spooned brats.

Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by stevage on Saturday December 28, 2024 @08:55PM (#42536738)
Magnus Carlsen is extremely wealthy due to part ownership in large chess sites. He does not need income from these tournaments.

Everyone is saying it's literally their job to know the rules, but for players like Hikaru and Magnus, this is not their job in any meaningful sense, it's a hobby.

Also, Magnus isn't lookirg for sympathy, he's just saying why he can't be bothered complying with these regulations, there's not that much in it for him.

Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by ddtaylor on Sunday December 29, 2024 @02:26AM (#42538326)
> It is literally your job.

It's not his occupation in some ways. He makes a lot more money from every other venture, so there is not a major economic incentive for him. Likewise, he works with creators and platforms that pull in big numbers of engaged viewers.

Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by ddtaylor on Sunday December 29, 2024 @02:28AM (#42538334)
> Women athletes who are forced to wear what amounts to underwear when the men aren't - they have a valid complaint about uniform standards.

For what it's worth that was the same organization - FIDE - that has made those terrible choices in the past as well.

Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by 8note on Sunday December 29, 2024 @05:46AM (#42539148)
hikaru's comment is that fide run stuff is not at all how chess players make money, if they make money.

for the most part theyre paying a lot for non-playimg middlemen to be in the way

Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by emchammer on Sunday December 29, 2024 @08:49PM (#42545592)
> Women athletes who are forced to wear what amounts to underwear when the men aren't

What

Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by epgui on Saturday December 28, 2024 @04:38PM (#42534992)
I would find that a bit surprising. Do you happen to remember where you heard him say this?
Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by michaelt on Saturday December 28, 2024 @05:07PM (#42535219)
Sounds plausible enough to me.

I don’t read the license agreement of every bit of software or the privacy policy of every website, after all.

Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by epgui on Saturday December 28, 2024 @05:48PM (#42535517)
I think this is more akin to reading the rules of a formal assembly before participating (eg.: a senate or a formal committee). These guys do chess events for a living. :shrug:
Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by michaelt on Saturday December 28, 2024 @06:41PM (#42535917)
I’ve competed in many running races, and I’m not sure if they even have written rules. Presumably they do, but I’ve never read them. You don’t need to, everyone knows what a race is.

Likewise, I use GPL software daily, for a living - doesn’t mean I’ve ever read the license.

Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by sampullman on Sunday December 29, 2024 @05:00AM (#42538965)
It depends on the race, sometimes there are rules that might surprise you. One that I recently signed up for has pretty specific gear requirements for 10k/21k/42k/60k. Trail races can have strict rules as well, like the type of compass and nutrients you need.
Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by pdpi on Sunday December 29, 2024 @05:33AM (#42539086)
Exactly. They play chess for a living.

You need to care about the bits around the actual chess playing, but regulations for these things are overwhelmingly made of "play nice, be reasonable, don't be a dick" rules. If you try to play by those high-level rules, apologise if you break the nitty gritty of the low-level rules and fix things at the earliest opportunity, it shouldn't be a big issue. Also, things like dress code can easily be a "not an actual rule, just convention" sort of affair.

Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by hnlmorg on Sunday December 29, 2024 @07:59AM (#42539648)
It’s very common for sports professionals not to have memorised the rules for every aspect of their sport.

They’re professionals because they understand the game and are in the top 1% of people who play it. Not because they are the best at memorising rules. The latter group are people Who become umpires/referees instead.

Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by anticensor on Wednesday January 01, 2025 @08:37AM (#42565917)
One can be a professional champion and referee and professional referee, all at the same time, just not in the same game event.
Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by hnlmorg on Wednesday January 01, 2025 @10:38AM (#42566635)
Sure, but I feel you’re missing the point with that comment.
Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by wongarsu on Sunday December 29, 2024 @09:20AM (#42540115)
I get paid to attend conferences for my job, I rarely read the detailed rules of the conference and venue. I assume they all say common sense stuff and are mostly the same. It's no different for chess players
Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by munch117 on Saturday December 28, 2024 @06:01PM (#42535613)
I remember Hikaru saying such things too, on livestreams (twitch or kick). More than once.
Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by thelock85 on Sunday December 29, 2024 @04:13AM (#42538748)
Agreed. I’m just thinking about NFL players who have crazy wardrobe leeway in and out of games, but somehow adhere to the minutiae of game time uniform codes. Not because of the insane attention they put into their craft, but because of clear financial or competitive penalties for doing otherwise (that impacts people and time invested in them).
Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by eszed on Sunday December 29, 2024 @09:53AM (#42540296)
That's because the team's equipment managers lay all of their gear out for them. I doubt any player could confidently answer a minutae-level question about the league's uniform policy.
Re:Chess: Magnus Carlsen disqualified in N.Y. after refusing... by FrustratedMonky on Sunday December 29, 2024 @03:55PM (#42543002)
Not totally true. All NFL teams have dress codes. Some of those players with flamboyant outfits actually pay fines every week. They justify the fines as part of the cost of promoting an individual brand over the team brand or image.