Is this the image you are thinking about? https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/642b16caa70131...
Because the problem is that it is not the "full body" of the coffee maker. Those pipes go somewhere. At least in the sense of how people usually think of an espresso machine the machine also contains the pump and the boiler. This apparently doesn't have those parts? Or if it has they are not good looking and minimalist enough to show.
We are discussing the photos as if those are the problem, but I think the issue people are having is with the product design. If I make a picture of a laptop on a charger people don't ask where do the cable go, because they know it goes into a charger connected to the wall. But with this people have to imagine a standalone boiler/pump setup just waiting to be connected into this coffee extractor thingy which is not a thing most people have (or expect to one day have ) in their kitchen.
The kind of coffee enthusiast who is going to preorder a $650 unreviewed coffee machine probably has at least one temp holding kettle they use for pour over.
But fully agreed this needs some clarity on the website.
Thinking about it now, of course. What else would the power lead be for? It doesn't heat the water. The pump being in that part can be the only other explanation.
> The kind of coffee enthusiast who is going to preorder a $650 unreviewed coffee machine probably has at least one temp holding kettle they use for pour over.
Yeah. I think that's the key here. This is for an enthusiast who wants the latest coolest tech, and is willing to accept some amount of discomfort for it.
It sounds like it is not hard to make the decision. I made my decision and it is a no. This is a cool thing for people who want to try the latest concepts but don't worry about it being an already polished and integrated whole product.
It is how some people kit build their Rutan Long-EZ to fly with, and some people just buy tickets from an airline. They are both flying but they are not the same class of thing. This is more towards the kit built airplane end of the scale for me than what I would be comfortable with.
I got to push back on this and align with the dozens of other comments being critical of the website. If I had the physical and budgetary space for it, I'd already be salivating at this point and wanting to hear more, polished or not.
But, the website is utterly lacking in conveyance of practical use and just dressed up in marketing design. While there is a disclaimer that the (device) design may undergo further revision, it's orthogonal to the fact that this completely kills any chance of an immediate, impulse buy (again, if I had the space). I would at this point be asking other buyers to post videos of it in use long after units have already been sold into the wild.
I do take my coffee somewhat seriously, with the consumption of fresh microroasted beans and a few prized pieces of brew equipment.
I see that the OP has already stated they will upload some videos. That would be great; many angles, both in use and not in use, both overview and zoomed in on components.
I am not most people, but I would prefer the kind of videos without excessive (though not to say "devoid of") pre-/post-processing, editing, green-screening, video cuts every three seconds, and all that shebang. Even your teenaged child or friend/significant other conscripted for twenty minutes to hold the phone with a steady hand while you show things off, minimally rehearsed and to-the-point... would be _fantastic_.
Don't even need to publish it on the official website if you deem it too tacky; but it will be infinitely more valuable to have on the ready than no demonstration at all if people are reaching out to you through channels like HN or even any address listed on the website. IMO.
I think people are being a bit harsh about the site and presentation. I think most of the criticisms are legitimate, but it is only fair to recognize the trends right now; it is no better or worse than most any other new product website - which tend to be similarly devoid of real information, no matter how much the product might cost.
From looking at the site and reading his comments here, this is a soft-launch / teaser, and he seems receptive to feedback. I look forward to seeing how things progress. I especially look forward to some solid videos showing everything in action. As with all things coffee, I can only be cautiously optimistic. But that means he is doing great :)
Any effort to get early wave buy-in from a certain (IMO critical and not uncommon) type of enthusiast (i.e., someone like me) in that meantime will be cripplingly handicapped by their web presence lacking information and not showing anything w.r.t. what the real-life use looks like.
I suppose that's my feedback, but you are right about the good move to make themself available here for feedback/Q&A. I'm jealous that I don't have the funds right now to actually consider buying one, so I'm here pontificating instead.
I suppose it says something important about the major defects with modern marketing that many people stopped there. Although I often would do the same, I did not, because I sense there is something great in this product line, and I want to be uncharacteristically patient to allow it to blossom.
Push back on what exactly though? I claimed that it is not hard to decide if one wants to buy it. I just decided that i don’t want to buy it. It sounds like you came to the same decision. So what is exactly the thing you disagree with me?
> fresh microroasted beans
But absolutely, going to add more "banana for scale" photos asap
The error is basically to film the product as if it was a sexy woman. I'll put it bluntly: I don't want to fuck your product. I might want to buy it but only if you show me the practical details. (Speaking generally - I'm not in the market for a coffee machine). Videos that solely try to convey allure and mistique are a net negative for the vast majority of products.
Yep, you bring the hot water, the machine does everything else! There is a pressure seal directly in the group head that holds the water in at the end of a shot. You can preheat just by pumping water into a cup for a couple seconds, which is around the same as a purge cycle on a traditional espresso machine. The fluid path is kept as small and as insulated as possible to avoid thermal losses or unnecessary water being held in the machine.
I added a pre-release version of the manual to the warranty page! Please excuse any minor errors.
I definitely agree that there needs to be a simple clean 30 second video of the full workflow with every part visible - I will work on that ASAP.
Besides that, anyone who has used an espresso machine knows that there's quite a bit of resistance when locking in a portafilter so that it seals properly. This thing looks like it would move off your countertop before the portafilter would lock in. Do you have to hold the legs with one hand while you lock the portafilter or something?
We figured out how to heat water thousands of years ago. Flow control is considerably newer
Then why doesn't this device heat the water
> you bring the hot water
E.g.
- Hot water poured in from a kettle?
- Hot water plumbed in from a domestic hot-water supply?
- Hot water plumbed in from a boiling water tap (such as Quooker?)
Like a check valve? Does that mean that some (clean) water is trapped between the pump's output and the seal at the end of the shot? If so, this doesn't seem so terrible.
One thing I've often found odd about espresso machines is that they all seem to have some mechanism to depressurize the basket when a shot ends, and that this mechanism lets water that may have been in contact with the grounds go through some portion of the machine. What's the point? The pressure will naturally dissipate quite quickly through the grounds unless like kind of pressure-retaining basket is in use.
stop hiding, be proud.
I've just looked at low end robot vacuum cleaners. It was hilarious, non of them are willing to show the product in action.
Have you thought about making a water heater accessory? I'd be open to collaborating - contact[at]otekengineer.com
That grinder is a thing of beauty. I was going to impulsively splurge until I saw the price (not complaining, you're doing the right thing by launching at a high price point).
You raise a ton of good points.
- It's going to ship with a full spare parts catalogue available
- Full prusa-esque upgrade paths will be made available for existing customers
- Every single part on either product can be changed off with the removal of 1-5 screws.
- The switches, cords, buttons, and (gear)motors are all standard sizes.
- and I absolutely commit to open sourcing everything if a day came where the project could not continue (I have done this for previous projects, it isn't an empty promise)
You make a good point about the burrs being a non-standard size. The thing to remember is every size of burr was once a non standard size. One of the most important parts of being a good engineer is only making something new when you can truly add value, and I think the burrs are valuable enough to have them be probably the only non-standard wear item in either machine.
IMHO, you should be putting these details in the spotlight. As a new brand in the espresso world, this would help convince customers go with you instead of a tried-and-trusted brand with decades of history on their back. Also, if there is a hackable PID controller or if there are plans to add one, this would also be a selling point for many (see the renewed popularity of the relatively humble Gaggia Classic).
For the burrs, maybe running a lab test of Turbina against a traditional grinder of the same class would help make a solid argument for the new design. E.g. start grinding 2 kilo batches on each grinder and then take a sample and lab-test it for consistency. Continue until the ground coffee becomes inconsistent on both. Yes, this may turn out to be pricey. And maybe there are established test procedures that I'm not aware of (not a coffee pro - just pulled this out of my engineering bottom).
As a final comment, for the wooden parts of Trefolo, maybe a darker or even black varnish would look more premium/classy. The pale wood color is vaguely reminiscent of IKEA furniture, something you probably want to avoid.
Also, IMHO, the sustainability pitch is a nice one but needs to be put down in more precise terms. It is good as it is for people who would otherwise buy a Nespresso machine, but anyone who has bought something above that level would need more convincing.
Overall, a good espresso machine already scores pretty high sustainability-wise. Apart from the used of sustainable/premium materials, a key factor to that is the replacement parts and repairability. So, how does Trefolo do in terms of replacement parts and compatibility with 3rd party parts?
For me, the future lack of replacement parts is especially concerning for the Turbina coffee grinder. The use of bespoke grinding burrs adds a wow factor and may be functionally superior to other types of burrs. But this is the one part in the whole setup that is guaranteed to need replacement down the road. What are the provisions for that? How much would it cost? And if you decide to stop selling it, would you e.g. be willing to commit to releasing the burr design so owners or some independent manufacturer can machine replacements?