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Re:Cybertruck's Many Recalls Make It Worse Than 91 Percent o... by graemep on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @03:57AM (#42243778)
I wonder whether OTA updates being possible encourages manufacturers to be sloppy with software quality.

They know they can fix problems cheaply. If they had to physically update vehicles they would have a lot more incentive to make updates unnecessary.

Re:Cybertruck's Many Recalls Make It Worse Than 91 Percent o... by _puk on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @04:35AM (#42244033)
Of course it does.

Think about how, even in software, knowing that a physical shipping of a product (CD / Blu-ray) can be updated from "day 1" has led to poor quality releases with last minute patches.

The cost of having to physically recall / resend CDs back in the day meant that what went out had to work. The cost of sloppy software has now been externalised.

Re:Cybertruck's Many Recalls Make It Worse Than 91 Percent o... by imiric on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @05:53AM (#42244558)
Exactly.

Back in the day it was a major milestone for video game projects to "go gold". It meant that the rigorous QA process was passed, and that retail copies were ready to be manufactured. Since that involved significant costs and physical logistics, companies certainly didn't want major bugs shipped at this stage. There were some exceptions, but ultimately this led to much higher customer satisfaction. Removing this "inconvenience" for companies and allowing them to ship updates and fixes at any point is a major reason why most modern game releases are a clusterfuck at day one. They treat it as public betas, and day one customers (or, worse, preorder suckers) are testers and a replacement for a QA process they don't have. It's essentially crowdsourced development. This also allows them to hype the game up to boost initial sales, and then go "oops, sorry" while they finish implementing it. This scam has been pulled numerous times over the past decade+, yet these companies keep doing it because it's profitable and there's no legal accountability for it.

The fact these practices are now seeping into software on which human lives depend is criminal, and should be prosecuted and strictly regulated.

Re:Cybertruck's Many Recalls Make It Worse Than 91 Percent o... by thrw42A8N on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @08:02AM (#42245337)
I get it's wrong in cars. But who the hell cares about games? So your game updates after a month with a fix. So what? It's not like you pay for the update.
Re:Cybertruck's Many Recalls Make It Worse Than 91 Percent o... by imtringued on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @08:20AM (#42245457)
There are lots of studios who just run away with your money and never deliver the fixes.
Re:Cybertruck's Many Recalls Make It Worse Than 91 Percent o... by r2_pilot on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @09:58AM (#42246329)
I'm still deeply disappointed about Kerbal Space Program 2,for that matter.
Re:Cybertruck's Many Recalls Make It Worse Than 91 Percent o... by sitkack on Thursday November 28, 2024 @07:00PM (#42269576)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerbal_Space_Program_2

I had no idea. That sounds like fraud.

Re:Cybertruck's Many Recalls Make It Worse Than 91 Percent o... by brookst on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @08:24AM (#42245498)
It’s bad business because it gives your most enthusiastic customers the worst experience. It’s good business because it pulls revenue forward and sometimes pulls revenue into higher seasonality.

Those two somewhat offset and you end up with the classic business decision of whether quality is important.

Re:Cybertruck's Many Recalls Make It Worse Than 91 Percent o... by lancesells on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @08:42AM (#42245635)
People who pay for a working game to play probably care. I'm not a gamer but I occassionally will try to pop something in every six months or so. Two hours later after I have to sign in from a controller, update the OS, then update the game I'm over it. I can't say that's all from shitty software development but some of it probably is.
Re:Cybertruck's Many Recalls Make It Worse Than 91 Percent o... by ssl-3 on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @09:14AM (#42245928)
Who cares about a $183bn industry, indeed.
Re:Cybertruck's Many Recalls Make It Worse Than 91 Percent o... by TeMPOraL on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @11:59AM (#42247402)
> So your game updates after a month with a fix.

Tell that to your kid this December, when you gift them a new console and a newly released game. Watch the wonderful experience of it taking forever to download a few gigabytes of patches from overloaded servers, and then not starting anyway because auth/billing/DRM/other bullshit server couldn't handle the demand.

Game studios love releasing around Christmas. I'm surprised they're not being held accountable for ruining that holiday for kids year over year.

Re:Cybertruck's Many Recalls Make It Worse Than 91 Percent o... by liontwist on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @11:00AM (#42246843)
It’s also bad for preservation because the disc doesn’t actually have the playable game anymore.
Re:Cybertruck's Many Recalls Make It Worse Than 91 Percent o... by TeMPOraL on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @11:55AM (#42247352)
Indeed; at this point, a disk is just treated as a cache for speeding up the initial installation.
Re:Cybertruck's Many Recalls Make It Worse Than 91 Percent o... by imiric on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @01:46PM (#42248619)
Physical media is almost entirely dead, and will not exist in a few years anyway. So, yeah, the move to digital releases, pervasive DRM, and live service games make preservation difficult.

I hope industry heads realize that they're actively pushing consumers towards piracy. These days you often get a better experience with a pirated game than a legally bought one: it runs better without DRM and doesn't infect your system, you can play it offline, and no license change will take it away from you. At least GOG seems to be the only store giving you DRM-free and offline installers, but not all games are released on it.

Re:Cybertruck's Many Recalls Make It Worse Than 91 Percent o... by liontwist on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @03:25PM (#42249678)
Right but physical media is not dead because of consumer demand. PS4 physical games were huge.

In the US there are still a lot of regions where a 50-100 GB download is just not reasonable.

I know console manufacturers hate retail and the used market, and want that sweet direct income. but it would be a powerful brand move to set higher standards for the physical release. I believe Nintendo has gone this direction.

Re:Cybertruck's Many Recalls Make It Worse Than 91 Percent o... by mrguyorama on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @12:35PM (#42247800)
People say this a lot but there were in fact examples of software being released back before ubiquitous internet patching that were broken.

For example, no copy of Space Station Silicon Valley for the N64 is completable because of a bug that prevents you from collecting the final plot device.

I'd say it's definitely worse now, with nothing meaningful being on the disc you pay $70 being insane.

Re:Cybertruck's Many Recalls Make It Worse Than 91 Percent o... by imiric on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @01:26PM (#42248410)
Like I said, there were some exceptions. But the current state is reversed: most games ship broken/incomplete at launch, and the exceptions are when a game is actually complete and relatively bug-free.

It's not a matter of not relying on patches or updates altogether. The issue is when companies use this as a crutch to offset their shoddy development practices. Or worse: scamming consumers into buying their broken/incomplete game, and then taking years to deliver a stable experience or what they advertised (No Man's Sky, Fallout 76, Cyberpunk 2077, etc.), shutting down (Redfall, The Day Before, etc.), or straight up taking the money and running. Consumers are lucky if they even get their money back. Thankfully most storefronts have decent refund policies, but that's not an excuse.

The saddest thing is that a lot of people either don't care, or end up forgetting about this if companies appear to work hard to ship updates, which is how they eventually gain their good will back. The reputations of studios like Hello Games, CDPR and even Bethesda are practically untarnished despite of their scams, which gives them the freedom to keep doing this.

Re:Cybertruck's Many Recalls Make It Worse Than 91 Percent o... by myrmidon on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @04:49AM (#42244118)
As an embedded software developer: 100% yes. Having a cheap OTA option will always lead to more sloppiness in development; the problem is that this makes it possible and easy to delay "features" in general when software projects are behind schedule (instead of delaying everything), these delayed features/releaes alone are then additional surface for bugs/regressions to slip through testing.

For the manufacturer this is still mainly a win I'd say... possibly even for the customer (because he gets features and fixes faster, at least), even though it sounds bad.

Re:Cybertruck's Many Recalls Make It Worse Than 91 Percent o... by sulam on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @01:33PM (#42248476)
I would argue that often the car or other hardware being delayed is not an option and so you get rushed software anyway, that has to be dealer serviced. We’ve seen that a lot in cars now that they’ve started having non-trivial amounts of software that is expected to multi-task. I don’t even know how many networks your typical EV has, it’s usually at least 4 or 5.
Re:Cybertruck's Many Recalls Make It Worse Than 91 Percent o... by silon42 on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @05:17AM (#42244339)
IMO... every OTA/mandatory update should make warranty be extended, as a minimum
Re:Cybertruck's Many Recalls Make It Worse Than 91 Percent o... by brookst on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @08:25AM (#42245503)
Great way to eliminate fixes for minor issues.
Re:Cybertruck's Many Recalls Make It Worse Than 91 Percent o... by gambiting on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @06:17AM (#42244704)
Absolutely. It's easy to see that with Volvo - they had their own operating system called Sensus that could only be upgraded at the dealership and you know, maybe it wasn't the flashiest thing but it worked fine. I've owned a car with it for nearly 5 years and it has never crashed for me once or really did anything weird - it's as stable as any automotive software should be imho. And then they swapped over to AOSS(android based) and it's a complete mess, people have been complaining about bugs and crashes literally constantly, and forums are just full of people going "are you on 3.452.123? They fixed that bug in 3.465.234, you need that update" and the updates literally come out every week, but now owners are worried whether an update actually fixes anything or of it makes things worse again. And I 100% blame the OTA updates for this, they just come in fast and thick clearly without the engineering rigor that automotive software should have.
Re:Cybertruck's Many Recalls Make It Worse Than 91 Percent o... by brookst on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @08:21AM (#42245474)
Is AOSP running any of the critical systems that would make the car undrivable or unsafe if it crashed? Or just IVI stuff? If the former that is horrifying.
Re:Cybertruck's Many Recalls Make It Worse Than 91 Percent o... by gambiting on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @08:42AM (#42245642)
It's running the infotainment display(the one in the centre of the car) , but not the driver display. Fortunately I've never heard about the driver display crashing while driving, so at least Volvo had the good sense of making sure that is solid - but the infotainment display is known to crash frequently requiring a hard restart(you hold the button under the display for at least 10 seconds then the entire thing reboots), which maybe it's critical but means you can't change any of the climate controls(other than windows demist since it has its own button, thankfully) while the screen reboots.
Re:Cybertruck's Many Recalls Make It Worse Than 91 Percent o... by sulam on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @01:31PM (#42248446)
Correct, the car can function without the infotainment system but you lose conveniences like climate control, the backup camera, and sometimes even audio, which is weird because you get no feedback from the turn signals. It’s not great but not an immediately pulling over kinda thing.
Re:Cybertruck's Many Recalls Make It Worse Than 91 Percent o... by sitkack on Thursday November 28, 2024 @06:55PM (#42269555)
All systems in a car are safety critical. If your infotainment system is freaking out it is taking your eyes off the road.

The same way that updates to Google Maps and Apple Maps kill people due to UI changes.

All systems are safety critical.

Re:Cybertruck's Many Recalls Make It Worse Than 91 Percent o... by mywacaday on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @07:04AM (#42244955)
Its not just car manufacturers, ever since SW stopped shipping in CDs the pressure to just ship and fix it with a patch has permeated everywhere. If there was no further opportunity to fix later I wonder would the Boeing issues have been as prevalent.
Re:Cybertruck's Many Recalls Make It Worse Than 91 Percent o... by tzs on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @11:54AM (#42247340)
It sure seems to be that way with pure software products. I'd not be surprised if is the same with embedded software in things like cars if they can be easily updated.

Back in the days before home internet was common I worked at a place that developed software for personal computers. The software was sold in retail stores such as Egghead, CompUSA, etc on floppy or CD.

Management was very insistent on high software quality. If a bug got through that was bad enough that an update to existing customers was needed the only option, aside from the small number of customers who would be able to use a modem to download an update from a dial up BBS, would be for us to mail them a floppy or CD with the update.

Even minor bugs that could be easily worked around by the customer were bad, because we had no means of contacting our customers except by writing or calling those who had filled out and returned in the prepaid registration card that was in the box when they bought the software. Instead what would happen is they would call our toll free support line.

Remember, this was not a subscription service. It's a one time purchase. If someone needs a long support call to solve a problem that could easily wipe out all profit made on that customer and more.

This wasn't just about bugs. If they had trouble using some feature due to poor UI or inadequate documentation that also meant calls to the toll free support line and so management also was very insistent on clear, well written, comprehensive documentation.

Compare to today. Updates are easy, you can have FAQs and searchable support articles on your website, someone will make a Reddit group where your customers can help each other, there will be bloggers and YouTubers posting tricks and solutions that in the old days would have been in the manual, and no one expects everything to work in any given release.