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Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by netsharc on Sunday November 24, 2024 @12:21PM (#42228993)
When entering China, they take your fingerprints, iris, and I guess face too... I was there in 2019, at one point I was at an airport, and a screen was bragging, "Stand where the camera can see your face, and we'll tell you which way to your gate.". It worked too, the screen displayed my name, flight number and direction to my gate. And implicitly, "We can identify you wherever you are.".
Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by mu53 on Sunday November 24, 2024 @12:31PM (#42229046)
Facial recognition systems like this are used everywhere in china. Its common for gates in apartment buildings.

Its just how things work there. It feel more malicious to pretend its not happening

Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by casenmgreen on Sunday November 24, 2024 @03:53PM (#42230482)
The problem is that by this it becomes ever more difficult to get rid of an oppressive, dictatorial, unelected and violent Government.
Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by bayindirh on Sunday November 24, 2024 @04:05PM (#42230575)
For an insider's perspective about "The Social Credit System", and the biometrics which underpin it, you can watch https://media.ccc.de/v/35c3-9904-the_social_credit_system

It's a long, but interesting talk.

Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by aspenmayer on Monday November 25, 2024 @04:52PM (#42240539)
Also available on the media.ccc.de YouTube page:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7UKYUTke58

Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by tehjoker on Sunday November 24, 2024 @05:23PM (#42231150)
tbqh, first if the insinuation is that China is not democratic, that is only true in the sense it is not a liberal democracy with a conservative wing represented (a good thing), but it is still a democracy with elections.

secondly, if people surviving a literal genocide in Palestine can resist the most technologically sophisticated, surveilled, and completely enclosed death camp ever constructed by the U.S. and Israel, you can figure out how to deal with cameras.

Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by BriggyDwiggs42 on Sunday November 24, 2024 @09:12PM (#42232577)
China is a one party state is it not?

> you can deal with cameras

Still rather not.

Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by tehjoker on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @11:34PM (#42252972)
Is it more democratic to let the majority be oppressed by a tiny property holding parasitic class or is it more democratic to repress them and express the interests of the majority?

Bear in mind when you answer that scientific surveys show American "democracy" is an oligarchy with popular opinion being almost entirely disconnected from policy.

Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by BriggyDwiggs42 on Wednesday November 27, 2024 @04:28AM (#42254455)
I wouldn’t argue that China is a representation of the latter, the CCP fails to represent the interests of the majority. Furthermore, I think the ideology of herding and repressing the confused masses is a despicable and blatantly invalid one, which is why I despise its use in America.

Yes, the US is an oligarchy of rich people with enormous influence over our sham system. That’s why I don’t want the system pointing cameras at me; I know the person behind the screen doesn’t represent my interests.

Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by kelnos on Monday November 25, 2024 @12:01AM (#42233378)
Insinuation? It's a fact that China is not a democracy.
Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by southernplaces7 on Monday November 25, 2024 @03:30PM (#42239870)
It's sometimes hard to credit that there are people who think in such a contorted way as you apparently do.

China isn't a democracy. The word doesn't apply when your choices for candidates can only come from one political party that pre-approved them. Don't be absurd.

It's a one-party state in which variations of style among different senior figures are still forced together under the rubric of a general monolithic dogma that's only marginally beholden to public opinion, and very much subject to the whims of dominant figures. Also, many elements of the Chinese state are at least as conservative as the worst you could see in the U.S, just without the religious overtones. Truly, go study the subject and it's history a bit better.

What's happening in Palestine, or more specifically in the Gaza Strip, is not a genocide. It's a tragedy of destructive military strategies by Israel, but calling it a genocide is demeaning to the definition of real genocides, which you should also study a bit better.

>the most technologically sophisticated, surveilled, and completely enclosed death camp ever constructed by the U.S. and Israel

Death camp, really? Also, if you're disgusted by technologically sophisticated, heavily surveilled, enclosed camps, then you really might want to find out what the Chinese "democracy" is doing in the Xinjiang Uyghur Region...

Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by throw3828374 on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @12:05AM (#42242756)
OP brings up a good point.

The news likes to allude to China's "genocide" in Xinjiang, but no one is dying.

At most they can stretch it to a "cultural genocide" but even that's not true as the native culture is not being repressed, only religious extremism.

However it is true that thousands of Palestinian civilians are being killed and those same media are afraid to call it out.

Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by southernplaces7 on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @01:18AM (#42242991)
Your point is a good one actually, and it's why I didn't mention anything about genocide in Xinjiang. It's a grotesque political atrocity of social repression and culture eradication, but as far as any sources I've looked at go, the Chinese state isn't literally killing the Uyghers en masse as an ethnic or religious group.

Nonetheless, the deaths of civilians in the Gaza Strip also aren't a genocide. They could be defined as a war crime, or if you want to be really generous to Israel, as unfair collateral damage (a phrase I mostly detest in this context) but the Israeli state isn't deliberately targeting the Strip's ethnic Palestinian population for eradication.

Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by aguaviva on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @12:01PM (#42247439)
The Israeli state isn't deliberately targeting the Strip's ethnic Palestinian population for eradication.

Total eradication, no.

It just wants to see it the resident population vastly reduced. And what it is deliberately doing is creating conditions favorable to this outcome, which it refers to as "voluntary transfer":

https://www.972mag.com/intelligence-ministry-gaza-population...

Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by godelski on Sunday November 24, 2024 @07:37PM (#42232002)
For people unfamiliar with this topic, it is commonly referred to as "Turnkey Tyranny".

It is about the belief that you "don't give Mr Rogers any power you wouldn't give to Hitler." Basically no matter how great you think your current leader is, you recognize that they will not be in power forever (or that they may not be good forever). Democracy, autocracy, oligarchy, whatever your system of government, there is a singular truth: all men die. All things change. Obviously this policy can go too far, but personally I think it is worth considering not just how good a policy or power can be, but how much harm it can do if abused or misused. It is easy to ignore this part because we want to believe people are good and have good intentions. Because we see the advantages and get excited about them. Because it is harder to think about abstract scenarios. But it is an important thing to think. You need not think your government is evil or nefarious to still be concerned with turnkey tyranny. In fact, the more faith you have in your government, the more you should be concerned. Because it is at that time that people are less likely to keep their guards up, and it is that same time that hostile actors look to take over. There is no absolute defense against malicious leaders, so it takes constant care.

Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by refurb on Sunday November 24, 2024 @10:54PM (#42233108)
This is basically the intent of the structure of the US government.

High degree of separation of powers (unlike most other democracies, the executive is separate from the legislative and there are two independent legislative bodies). High level of agreement across multiple bodies before a law can be passed (House, Senate and President).

I thought Scalia's explanation was a good one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ggz_gd--UO0

Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by godelski on Monday November 25, 2024 @12:45AM (#42233587)
I agree, that its the intent. The downside of the US is that it moves slow. But the upside is that it’s the oldest country in the world if you measure by (codified) constitution. You might think European countries are older but Germany didn’t exist till the late 1940’s. If you really want to stretch it you can argue early 1800’s but that’s facetious.

The point is to be highly distributed. Many keys to power. It makes it hard to get shit done when people are unwilling to work together (read partisan hacks). Which is what makes it strong against takeover, even getting half the keys will still grind your takeover to a slow roll. That’s petty robust to adversaries.

I have a hot take. My faith in the system strengthened with Trump and especially the stupid coup. Because I saw a man try very hard to take over and despite having a coalition that was practicing party over country, he still couldn’t. Though how many keys does he have now and did he do the legwork to make it work a second time? That we’ll see. But even then, I think it tells a successful story of robustness. That it took a few hundred years of growing power and extreme partisanship to break it. Clearly it can be and needs to be improved but clearly it’s got something of value. Something to learn from and iterate from rather than rework from scratch. I’m not aware of any country that’s survived under such extreme circumstances, but I’m not knowledgeable enough here. Please correct me but cite so I can learn more. Defining what is a country, let alone a continuous empire is very messy business with a lot of national narrative tied in (we can even argue the US’s fragmentation would disqualify, but the constitution stayed ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)

Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by bilekas on Monday November 25, 2024 @03:01AM (#42234178)
> But the upside is that it’s the oldest country in the world if you measure by (codified) constitution.

Iceland would very much like a word about this. But your point in fair, maybe phrased a bit wrong.

Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by godelski on Monday November 25, 2024 @12:51PM (#42238365)

  >> Please correct me but cite so I can learn more
Wiki says

  > The current constitution was first instituted on 17 June 1944 when Iceland became a republic; since then, it has been amended seven times.
The earliest date I even see in the wiki is 1849 which isn't even really on topic.

The official document also says 1944[0]

  CONSTITUTION OF THE REPUBLIC OF ICELAND
  (No. 33, 17 June 1944, as amended 30 May 1984, 31 May 1991, 28 June 1995 and 24 June 1999)
So I'm going to need that citation because I'm having a hard time verifying what you're saying.

[0] https://www.government.is/library/01-Ministries/Prime-Minist...

Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by yownie on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @12:11AM (#42242776)
he is speaking of our [Alþingi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Althing) which has existed since 930.
Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by shiroiushi on Monday November 25, 2024 @02:32AM (#42234020)
>it’s the oldest country in the world if you measure by (codified) constitution

I think a better way of phrasing it might be "a continuous system of government". Germany certainly existed before the late 1940s, but the system of government was obviously very, very different.

Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by godelski on Monday November 25, 2024 @12:47PM (#42238331)

  > Defining what is a country, let alone a continuous empire is very messy business with a lot of national narrative tied in
Definitely gets fuzzy with definitions when we have things like Prussia, German unification, the German Empire, and all that. Especially, again, with the national narrative. It is messy business and I think we often pretned it is a lot cleaner than it actually is.
Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by shiroiushi on Monday November 25, 2024 @06:55PM (#42241330)
It's not that messy, it's just a disagreement about what a "country" is. You're thinking with the European mindset of "nation", where a country is defined by its borders, history, etc. The OP is thinking with the American mindset where the country is defined by its founding documents and legal principles. They're entirely different.

In the latter mindset, Prussia, the German Empire, etc., really have nothing to do with modern Germany, because Germany is not a kingdom or empire, it's a country that was founded in 1945/6 by Allied occupiers. The only messy thing about it is the reunification in the early 1990s, because two formerly separate countries (DDR and BRD), with extremely different systems of government, were stuck together, but under the same system of government as the western side, which really makes it an annexation.

Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by smolder on Monday November 25, 2024 @04:32AM (#42234659)
That's the intent, but evidently, (and sadly,) it doesn't work how it should. There's too much influence from moneyed interests and just too much bad faith participation and gaming of the various processes. It was bad when I was born and it's gotten ever more corrupt and dysfunctional since.
Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by spacemanspiff01 on Monday November 25, 2024 @07:13AM (#42235584)
I think that the biggest issue is that congress is underfunded and has ceded too much control to the executive.

By that I mean that the modern world is incredibly complex, yet in the house, each house member only gets 1.25 million per year for staff. Yet despite that they are supposed to create and manage the rules and regulations for a 30 trillion dollar economy.

It's impossible, even if you have good faith of all actors. This leads to lobbying groups providing texts for laws, because they have the resources to provide people to write and review them.

It also leads to shifting the bureaucracy of the regulations to the executive branch, because that is where there is the money to hire staff/expertise/ and regulate something as large and complicated.

My pet peeve is that each congressional rep should be receiving ~25 million for staff, then use that to build up in house expertise, vs having everything under the executive.

Congress has ceded too much power.

Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by avmich on Monday November 25, 2024 @11:19AM (#42237478)
Doesn't Congress have all the access they want to the governmental services?
Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by rightbyte on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @02:38PM (#42249161)
> "Turnkey Tyranny"

Thanks this is a really great concept. I'm going to use this for the slippery slope fallacy fallacy.

Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by namaria on Wednesday November 27, 2024 @06:06AM (#42255052)
I am pretty sure this is the loophole Gödel found with the American constitution. It is pretty easy to turn the US government authoritarian, if you elect an authoritarian president.
Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by thisisnotauser on Sunday November 24, 2024 @05:34PM (#42231217)
There's a famous saying about Mussolini making the trains run on time. The joke was that anyone who complained about the trains running late, which was an endemic issue emblematic of the financial failures of fascism (his government system), was killed.

But if you didn't complain about the trains, maybe because you didn't take them, you didn't get killed. It was fine.

Maybe things are actually kinda bad, but you're just not willing to admit it to yourself because you aren't complaining about the trains.

In the US, we complain about the trains. And if the gov't is spying on us with facial recognition, we're going to stop them.

Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by LtWorf on Sunday November 24, 2024 @06:25PM (#42231523)
> And if the gov't is spying on us with facial recognition, we're going to stop them.

I wish I still had this childish optimism.

Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by redserk on Monday November 25, 2024 @06:49AM (#42235453)
No, in the US we just stick fingers in our ears while we let the private sector do it while screaming “la-la-la” and closing our eyes.
Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by paulluuk on Sunday November 24, 2024 @12:53PM (#42229201)
I was in China a few years ago, didn't take fingerprints, iris, or face recognition. Just a routine passport check and that's it. I flew from Europe to Beijing, might be different if you fly from the US.
Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by jpcom on Sunday November 24, 2024 @03:02PM (#42230068)
Must be the Amazon benefits for being a US citizen
Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by netsharc on Sunday November 24, 2024 @05:10PM (#42231067)
I was travelling by train from Mongolia/crossed the border by bus because it was cheaper, and when I mean by bus, the bus collects you at the station before the border and drives you to the big border checkpoint building where you cross the border by foot/where they have booths and guards that do the passport and visa checks, just like at an airport.

Maybe I'm misremembering the iris scan. If it did happen, it could be because there were loads of Mongolian students about to embark on their next semester of studies in China.

Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by seanmcdirmid on Sunday November 24, 2024 @05:55PM (#42231334)
It changes every month it seems, port of entry is also probably significant.
Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by dylan604 on Sunday November 24, 2024 @07:05PM (#42231803)
Wouldn’t it just be easier if they forced you to provide your TikTok account. They’d know everything they’d need to know about you. We’re so sure that CCP has access to that data anyways right? That’s the point of the forced sell legislation.
Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by lmz on Sunday November 24, 2024 @07:48PM (#42232069)
You do know the US government also asks for your social media accounts when you apply for a Visa? https://travel.state.gov/content/dam/visas/Enhanced%20Vettin...
Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by Yeul on Sunday November 24, 2024 @12:45PM (#42229142)
A new Chinese export market: surveillance technology. I think Israel will be very interested... And the West will follow in time.
Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by _zoltan_ on Sunday November 24, 2024 @12:45PM (#42229139)
I was there and they didn't do an iris scan.

Taking a photo and fingerprint is pretty standard everywhere.

Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by xyst on Sunday November 24, 2024 @12:47PM (#42229157)
The selfie normalized public photography.

Travel by plane/DMV applications normalized fingerprinting.

What’s next? Semen and blood samples as well?

The terrorists have won. Fear has ruled the major powers of the world. And the current major power of the free world is a puppet and an all around idiot.

Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by bastardoperator on Sunday November 24, 2024 @05:03PM (#42231026)
Too late, I already gave the US government my DNA/reference via blood sample. The military has been doing that since the early 90's.
Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by shiroiushi on Monday November 25, 2024 @02:40AM (#42234059)
All Americans have DNA samples stored at an abandoned mine in West Virginia. The code to open the door is the first 5 digits of Euler's number: 27828.
Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by 1659447091 on Monday November 25, 2024 @11:03PM (#42242495)
> What’s next? Semen and blood samples as well?

That would seriously hamper ~50% or so of the worlds population from travel

Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by X-Istence on Sunday November 24, 2024 @04:50PM (#42230936)
When entering the United States they also take fingerprints and a picture of your face.
Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by applied_heat on Sunday November 24, 2024 @06:14PM (#42231432)
Canadians don’t have their finger prints taken when entering USA
Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by hoppyhoppy2 on Sunday November 24, 2024 @06:26PM (#42231541)
...unless you're a US citizen, correct?
Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by HWR_14 on Sunday November 24, 2024 @08:33PM (#42232349)
Correct.
Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by DanHulton on Sunday November 24, 2024 @10:17PM (#42232918)
Fingerprints? I haven't ever had that happen. Perhaps only certain countries?
Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by iamjackg on Sunday November 24, 2024 @10:41PM (#42233035)
People from (all?) visa waiver countries have their fingerprints taken when entering the US, in addition to having to submit an ESTA[0] application before arrival. Last I checked, it still asked for all your social media handles (although you're not required to provide them).

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_System_for_Travel_A...

Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by iszomer on Monday November 25, 2024 @08:31AM (#42236132)
I've seen it while returning from a trip to Taiwan recently, via JFK. They took fingerprints from non-US passport holders at Customs, I think; they didn't take mine.
Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by X-Istence on Monday November 25, 2024 @09:26PM (#42242022)
I am a US resident alien (green card holder) and I have my fingerprints and picture taken each time I enter the United States.
Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by reddotchaser on Tuesday November 26, 2024 @08:21AM (#42245471)
Yeah all non-citizens have to do that. If and when you become a citizen you won’t have to. It’s crazy how much nicer entering the country feels after that lol
Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by yuserx on Monday November 25, 2024 @01:19AM (#42233732)
That was the main reason why Europeans were forced to switch to a passport with biometric data (some fingerprints and photo) on a chip more than a decade ago.
Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by abdullahkhalids on Sunday November 24, 2024 @05:25PM (#42231169)
Pictures are also taken on entry in Canada, at least at Vancouver airport [1]. And obviously getting the visa requires submitting your fingerprints.

[1] https://www.yvr.ca/en/passengers/navigate-yvr/customs-and-im...

Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by swat535 on Monday November 25, 2024 @08:25AM (#42236085)
It's Canada wide, we have these in Montreal as well
Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by kyawzazaw on Sunday November 24, 2024 @11:59PM (#42233367)
Also in singapore
Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by swat535 on Monday November 25, 2024 @08:24AM (#42236076)
Same thing when entering Japan, they even have machines where you can do it yourself
Re:Senators Say TSA's Facial Recognition Program Is Out of C... by antipaul on Monday November 25, 2024 @11:17AM (#42237461)
They've had facial recognition in Europe at airports for a few years now.

At least if you are EU citizen, you don't need to interface with humans.

I believe, though not certain, that you can opt out simply by going to the human booths (right?)