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Re:Post World War II Food by kibwen on Thursday October 24, 2024 @06:04PM (#41940310)
I'm struggling to imagine what would happen in the modern day if the US government went to war and tried to resort to WWII-style rationing. Limited meat, limited sugar, limited gasoline, a national speed limit of 35 MPH to save on tires... I legitimately think that the country would collapse.
Re:Post World War II Food by adastra22 on Thursday October 24, 2024 @07:46PM (#41940937)
We wouldn’t because there is no reason to. All those restrictions back then were because fertilizer, gunpowder, and rubber were all naturally sourced and in limited supply. We have self-sufficient synthetic or domestic production of all now.
Re:Post World War II Food by vasco on Thursday October 24, 2024 @08:43PM (#41941254)
In all out war, all available production or very close to it gets repurposed for the war effort. Those or other new rationing limits would certainly come into play when the US gets into a war that threatens survival instead of the run of the mill "make sure we keep production going in case we need it later" wars that we're used to. Maybe it'd be no new iPhone models due to semiconductor rationing or things like that but there's always limits.
Re:Post World War II Food by adastra22 on Thursday October 24, 2024 @11:46PM (#41942044)
Not the same limits though. Bacon was rationed because animal fat was turned into gunpowder. But the Haber-Bosch process is self-sustaining. There will be no shortage of gunpowder.
Re:Post World War II Food by ls612 on Friday October 25, 2024 @12:46AM (#41942299)
In an all out war short of nuclear exchange it’s plausible fuel and electronics could be rationed but the USA produces so much food nowadays and even a huge military has pretty hard ceilings on food consumption it’s hard to see the food rationing (which was most impactful to ordinary people) returning.
Re:Post World War II Food by adastra22 on Friday October 25, 2024 @10:53AM (#41945830)
Food rationing in the USA wasn’t to ensure a supply of calories to troops, but to ensure that industrially useful foods (e.g. high nitrate fats) got recycled into military use.

The development of synthetic gunpowder via the Haber-Bosch process, which fueled Germany through two world wars, but only became available to the allies after WW2, means this particular form of rationing is a thing of the past.

Re:Post World War II Food by philipkglass on Friday October 25, 2024 @12:58PM (#41947146)
The fat was actually used to make glycerin, which could be nitrated to nitroglycerin:

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/04/reluctant...

Nitroglycerin was used as a component of smokeless powder -- propellant for bullets, mortar shells, and artillery.

The Haber-Bosch process was used by all belligerents in World War II. Germany was the only operator of the process during World War I, but it rapidly spread throughout the world between the wars.

Re:Post World War II Food by adastra22 on Friday October 25, 2024 @01:30PM (#41947464)
Thanks for the correction on glycerin. If I remember my history right, the Haber process spread through the world after WW1 for making ammonia, and from there known techniques were available for transforming it into saltpeter. But BASF / IG Farben continued to develop their high pressure chemistry to stay ahead of foreign competition, and the use of Haber-like processes to turn air into all kinds of war munitions was still limited to Germany until after WW2. A lot of the war restrictions would not have been necessary if they had access to IG Farben’s latest tech.

For the USA at least. The UK was a different issue, as they were actively being bombed and therefore experienced direct shortages.

Re:Post World War II Food by philipkglass on Friday October 25, 2024 @01:54PM (#41947733)
the use of Haber-like processes to turn air into all kinds of war munitions was still limited to Germany until after WW2

The US and other countries also used synthetic Haber process ammonia to make nitric acid and explosives from it during World War II.

Here's a 1946 report about American chemical plants and facilities built to support the war effort:

https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/001108531

From pages 2 and 3 of the report:

The Government has invested more than $200 million in 10 synthetic ammonia plants, having a combined design capacity of about 800,000 tons of fixed nitrogen per year. These include eight ordnance plants, of which six have been declared surplus, one Defense Plant Corporation plant and one belonging to the Tennessee Valley Authority. Four plants have facilities for producing ammonium nitrate solutions. The nitric acid facilities located in the explosives plants of (2), and the ammonium nitrate graining facilities found in the ammunition loading plants of of (1) have a definite relationship to the ammonia plants.

Re:Post World War II Food by vasco on Friday October 25, 2024 @04:27AM (#41943360)
> or other new rationing limits

I did write this!

Also you have no idea if there will be no shortage of gunpowder. Rationing gets applied where the shortages are, and the shortages are many times difficult to anticipate or predict. I get your point and agree it's more likely to be new items, but that's just a gut feeling. In reality shortages can happen on basic products that are easy to manufacture but which a country doesn't manufacture anymore, for example if it's not very profitable.

Re:Post World War II Food by adastra22 on Friday October 25, 2024 @10:49AM (#41945802)
The contribution of animal fat to gunpowder (it is surprising that there is a connection!) is the nitrate content. Essentially the compost waste is turned into fertilizer, and from there to high explosives.

Nitrate is NO3. It is produced 100% from the air, by a process which is exothermic. So it’s (almost) free, at the margin, or would be if not for the need of pure input gasses.

A Haber-Bosch plant is a factory the size of a city that produces all the fertilizer or explosives you’d ever want, using nothing but air, water, and electricity as input.

We can confidently say that this particular shortage won’t be an issue anymore.

Re:Post World War II Food by liveoneggs on Thursday October 24, 2024 @08:49PM (#41941283)
WW3 is just the excuse they need to keep data caps!
Re:Post World War II Food by hammock on Thursday October 24, 2024 @08:51PM (#41941296)
It would be different resources today.

Resources like aluminum, copper, rubber, pharmaceuticals, chips and rare earth elements.

Re:Post World War II Food by _heimdall on Thursday October 24, 2024 @07:20PM (#41940804)
It would be a totally different world, but I expect we would adjust. People are surprisingly adaptive, you just don't expect it beforehand and don't notice it after.
Re:Post World War II Food by rgmerk on Thursday October 24, 2024 @08:27PM (#41941179)
We spent a total of 262 days (by an NYT estimate, though the rules varied throughout that period) in lockdown throughout the pandemic. Did it suck mightily? Yes. Did we get through it? Yes.

(Are our boomer parents in rural areas in the least grateful that we collectively saved them from dying at the same rates experienced in most of the world? No.

Did it have a serious effect on our psyche? See last paragraph…).

Re:Post World War II Food by vasco on Thursday October 24, 2024 @08:55PM (#41941314)
How are you under the impression that you saved anyone or that the US had lower rates than other countries? The US is top 10 or close, in deaths per case or deaths per capita of most statistics I can find for COVID-19. It doesn't seem to me like you're basing your thoughts on reality if your pre-existing supposition is "there were less deaths in the US".

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

Re:Post World War II Food by DavidPeiffer on Thursday October 24, 2024 @09:11PM (#41941411)
I'm not able to research this in depth right now, but obesity was a pretty strong predictor of outcome. In general, the US population has is very unhealthy and obese.

I'd be curious to see rates by country by BMI and infection date. There were definitely lessons learned from Italy's early surge that helped other countries in the early days.

Re:Post World War II Food by vasco on Thursday October 24, 2024 @09:14PM (#41941426)
There's no need to research the why. The only point I'm making is the end result - which they used as the main base of their argument on, is not true. Why it's not true is likely very complex, but it's not true.

Nobody is going to be grateful for something that didn't happen, why would people be grateful for dying less as a population, if they in fact did not die less? Also there were lockdowns all over the world, not just in the US.

Re:Post World War II Food by bruce511 on Friday October 25, 2024 @01:09AM (#41942393)
Researchers and statisticians will be poring over covid data for decades to come. There are so many variables to control for that at this point that definitive statements are hard.

For example, the "US death rate" is somewhat meaningless because it encompasses multiple communities which adopted multiple strategies, with multiple levels of diligence, and covers both large concentrated populations and small distributed populations.

US deaths were not evenly spread, so there was certainly some variety of outcome with variety of mitigation.

Overall, the US death rate though is high, which suggests that it's very high in some areas. The correlation between strategy, compliance and outcome will feed researchers for a long time.

Re:Post World War II Food by vasco on Friday October 25, 2024 @04:23AM (#41943335)
I know many deaths were wrongly attributed to COVID everywhere, the whole debacle about deaths 'with COVID' or 'from COVID', among others. Question is your point only reinforces my argument, because the data we have shows the US rates were roughly the same up to one of the worst, and the data we don't have we don't know what it says.

So to conclude the complete opposite of what the current data shows, dirty or not, is wrong. To then be upset at it is misguided.

Re:Post World War II Food by roenxi on Thursday October 24, 2024 @10:39PM (#41941774)
Are they still be alive to be grateful? Statistically a big chunk of the people who would have died to COVID have probably died in the intervening period between the lockdowns and now. It has been a couple of years and the 60+ demographic shrinks pretty quickly at the best of times.
Re:Post World War II Food by _heimdall on Thursday October 24, 2024 @08:33PM (#41941215)
> (Are our boomer parents in rural areas in the least grateful that we collectively saved them from dying at the same rates experienced in most of the world? No.

> Did it have a serious effect on our psyche? See last paragraph…).

That's a huge caveat you just snuck in there. I'm totally with you on the first part about largely having gotten through lockdowns, though it wasn't without some damage and suicide and crime rates did go up for example.

We simply don't have data about how many boomer parents in rural areas were saved from dying. For one thing the virus mortality rate was much less than it could have been. For another we never actually ran randomized control studies testing efficacy against death.

Given that you singled out boomers in rural areas, I also assuming that they either didn't get vaccinated or were somehow saved by those younger people in cities that did choose to get the shots. How do you assume that? The vaccines didn't prove out to be very good at preventing transmission, and preventing transmission between populated cities and rural areas is pretty well handled by geography.

Re:Post World War II Food by HeyLaughingBoy on Friday October 25, 2024 @04:41PM (#41949492)
I live in a rural area and we were far less affected by COVID lockdown than cities and suburbs. The main impact was (a) my kid went to school online (b) I worked from home and (c) I wore a mask when I went grocery shopping.

Besides that? I live in an extremely low-density area, it was pretty much business as usual. Restaurants were takeout only, when parks weren't mostly deserted, people spaced themselves out. I remember meeting a couple of my wife's friends in a park and we all just sat in a giant circle. Lockdown was more a minor irritation than anything.

Re:Post World War II Food by SalmonSnarker on Thursday October 24, 2024 @07:57PM (#41941015)
you're probably right that the country would collapse. people could hardly handle masking in public for a year, it's hard to believe they could last more than a couple months with world war two rations.

we lack the ability to make sacrifices for the communal good.

Re:Post World War II Food by crossroadsguy on Thursday October 24, 2024 @11:26PM (#41941972)
> we lack the ability to make sacrifices for the communal good.

Or maybe we learnt that there’s no common good.

Look at how money flows (and flew right after WW2 and kept flowing) and concentrates at a certain section of pyramid - yes even in developed countries, in fact especially there.

On the other hand, go look into the history of cannon fodder soldiers from colonies in both of the “great” wars of the West and look at what happened to those nations right after and even until now. In fact somewhere told “tough luck, we still feel like keeping you enslaved little more”.

Well that’d happening inside nation's now. Differently - the name could be exploitation or something else.

I think the world has finally had enough of recorded history to learn the exact “common and communal good”!

Re:Post World War II Food by lupusreal on Friday October 25, 2024 @06:34AM (#41943945)
The whole American economy is already rigged to let baby boomers cash out at the end of their lives so they can travel Europe while younger generations struggle to make rent. Then I'm supposed to mask up and stay inside for an indefinite period of time ("two weeks to flatten the curve" becomes two months, then starts to look like it will be two years...), for what? To protect myself from an illness which nearly everybody my age shrugs off effortlessly? No, to protect the baby boomers so that they might live even longer. American society revolves around baby boomers.

A century ago, old people would have made sacrifices so that young people could live their lives. Baby boomers are too self absorbed for that, far too selfish. I gave them two months, which is more than I should have. Give an inch and they'll try to take a mile. If it wasn't for the pushback we'd all still be isolating to make baby boomers feel safe.

Re:Post World War II Food by umanwizard on Friday October 25, 2024 @07:42AM (#41944291)
Old people weren’t the ones asking for more pandemic restrictions. They were most strongly supported by politically progressive city-dwelling Millennials.
Re:Post World War II Food by lupusreal on Friday October 25, 2024 @09:35AM (#41945128)
Oh yes they were. "You're killing grandma!" was the battle cry of the isolationists.
Re:Post World War II Food by umanwizard on Friday October 25, 2024 @10:06AM (#41945448)
The lockdowns were justified in the name of old people, yes. That doesn't mean old people were the ones calling for them.
Re:Post World War II Food by lupusreal on Friday October 25, 2024 @12:06PM (#41946584)
Appeals to grandma weren't targetted at baby boomers; their grandmas are long dead already. The baby boomers are the grandmas the rhetoric referenced.
Re:Post World War II Food by umanwizard on Friday October 25, 2024 @01:19PM (#41947364)
I understand that. Regardless of who the rhetoric referenced, it was not propagated primarily by old people.

Just like arguments to “think of the children” are almost never made by children themselves.

Re:Post World War II Food by chasd00 on Friday October 25, 2024 @07:41AM (#41944285)
> If it wasn't for the pushback we'd all still be isolating to make baby boomers feel safe.

From what I remember it was the boomers who were the loudest voices against “shelter in place” during the pandemic. Young people were the ones happily following what ever order the authorities demanded.

Re:Post World War II Food by Damogran6 on Friday October 25, 2024 @01:00PM (#41947164)
Hindsight being 20/20 and all that. This is clearly something you feel strongly about. I don't like people dying and societally, don't mind doing things that help other people not die.

Success was quite the moving target back then and to be cranky that two weeks lead to two years drastically underestimates the difficulty of the problem. Paxlovid, Boosters, knowledge on how to treat AND THE FACT that the ones that were susceptible are DEAD... (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1191568/reported-deaths-...)

Your take on it is tone deaf and lacking in empathy.

Re:Post World War II Food by umanwizard on Friday October 25, 2024 @02:35PM (#41948206)
Everyone dies, no matter what you or anyone else does or doesn't do.
Re:Post World War II Food by Damogran6 on Saturday October 26, 2024 @12:15PM (#41955683)
Yes, but. It’s the time in-between that people generally want to maximize…and if they’re the kind of person I want to hang out with, they want to help other people maximize their short time as well.
Re:Post World War II Food by umanwizard on Sunday October 27, 2024 @01:09PM (#41964004)
Maximizing the quality of one's time on earth is not only done by maximizing its duration. Nobody, including the people you want to hang out with, optimizes for 100% longevity without caring about any other variable.
Re:Post World War II Food by lupusreal on Friday October 25, 2024 @03:31PM (#41948787)
Tone deaf and lacking empathy is a good way to describe people in their 70s who want society shut down, children locked out of schools even, because they're terrified of their own mortality.
Re:Post World War II Food by Damogran6 on Saturday October 26, 2024 @12:17PM (#41955693)
You’re not up on pandemic math, are you?

There’s emergent behavior that came out of well known scientific behavior in trying to contain a global phenomenon that we didn’t fully understand when it hit.

Re:Post World War II Food by Cthulhu_ on Friday October 25, 2024 @07:04AM (#41944090)
I'm no sociologist but WW2 was different in that they had one (or more) common enemies, same with post-9/11; if Americans have a common enemy, they can tolerate a lot of shit.

But with the 'rona it wasn't presented as such; there was a clear propaganda push from some corners telling people that their freedoms were being taken away, that they were suffering, etc.

Re:Post World War II Food by umanwizard on Friday October 25, 2024 @07:47AM (#41944325)
> there was a clear propaganda push from some corners telling people that their freedoms were being taken away

People’s freedoms were, literally, being taken away. Whether the extent to which freedoms were curtailed was worth the extent to which doing so helped slow the spread of the virus is a subjective question that reasonable people can debate. It’s unfair to dismiss either side of that debate as “propaganda”.

Re:Post World War II Food by xattt on Friday October 25, 2024 @08:05AM (#41944442)
It wouldn’t have been framed as liberty-quashing if it wasn’t for said propaganda circles. Most people can’t form an opinion better than a stool without simple “[VERB] the [NOUN]” talking points, and these were readily available in low-quality yellow-on-black text JPEGs.

Sitting around at home is much better than dying or suffering long-term effects of COVID-19 infection. How people did not see beyond this is beyond comprehension. What the hell was so important that it couldn’t wait a few months?

Re:Post World War II Food by umanwizard on Friday October 25, 2024 @08:24AM (#41944558)
> Sitting around at home is much better than dying or suffering long-term effects of COVID-19 infection.

Yes, obviously, but that wasn't the choice. It was probabilistic: sitting around at home vs. some chance of dying or suffering long-term effects of COVID-19 infection.

> What the hell was so important that it couldn’t wait a few months?

Everything? I don't know if I even understand the question. Why do you think people don't like going to prison for example?

---

EDIT to explain further:

Let me give a hypothetical extreme example. Now I'm not claiming that the tradeoff in the case of COVID is this lopsided, but I'm just trying to illustrate the framework for thinking about these kinds of question. Imagine you are given two options:

OPTION A: You go to prison for 10 years. Separately, much later, you die at age 83.

OPTION B: You don't go to prison. There's a 99% chance that nothing happens (you stil dies at 83). There's a 1% chance that you die a year earlier, at 82.

In this extreme example, obviously, everyone would pick Option B.

Because of our self-preservation instinct, we don't like to think about the fact that we're inevitably going to die someday, so human moral intuition tends to think of saving a life as having infinite value. But that's not the case: the point of this reductio ad absurdum is that there is no such thing as saving a life, only extending it for some finite amount of time.

If you make V people's lives worse by W% for X time, to extend Y people's lives by Z time, whether it is "worth it" depends on the values of all the variables involved. Reasonable people can debate whether this was the case for the Covid lockdowns, and that is properly a political question, not a scientific one (though science can help inform it).

Re:Post World War II Food by xattt on Friday October 25, 2024 @09:12AM (#41944941)
Incarceration happens because of a willful act. A pandemic, like seasons or natural disasters, are events beyond the control of individuals except for preventative measures that mitigate risk.

You wouldn’t have a picnic in the middle of a forest fire, just like you shouldn’t go out into some me-first in the middle of a pandemic. If you did, you’re going suffer consequences and use up resources of those that were caught up by a accident. Both can wait.

This Kantian mindset has to go.

Re:Post World War II Food by Izkata on Friday October 25, 2024 @10:07AM (#41945462)
That's kind of the point: There was a pandemic in 2009 that everyone seems to have forgotten about because we didn't have such an extreme response with things like masks and lockdowns, and the world didn't collapse. Neither did it this time in the areas that didn't have such an extreme response. It was unnecessary, and a lot of people realized this early on. Some of the pushback is from that group. Most of the rest is from people who just want to decide the risk for themselves instead of having it forced on them.
Re:Post World War II Food by umanwizard on Friday October 25, 2024 @10:06AM (#41945442)
This is completely unrelated to the point I was making. Come on, going to prison was just an example of something bad that decreases quality of life. Can you please try to engage with the actual argument?
Re:Post World War II Food by acka on Friday October 25, 2024 @05:04PM (#41949743)
I believe there are several important points missing from this discussion.

Firstly, there is the issue of hindsight bias. At the onset of the COVID-19 pandemic, we had limited knowledge about the potential impact of the virus. Our understanding was primarily based on previous outbreaks like SARS and MERS, which had mortality rates as high as 50%, and alarming outbreaks on cruise ships and in apartment complexes which suggested fast spread of the virus through contaminated surfaces as well as through the air. The rapid global spread of the virus, facilitated by increased air travel, compounded these concerns.

Authorities were acutely aware that regions with less advanced healthcare systems would be particularly vulnerable. Even in countries with robust healthcare infrastructures, there was a significant risk that ICU units could be overwhelmed by the influx of severely ill COVID-19 patients requiring extended duration intensive care, with high-flow oxygen therapy often followed by intubation and a prolonged period of induced coma. This situation threatened to reduce the availability of intensive care for other critical cases.

Moreover, there was an initial shortage of personal protective equipment (PPE) and oxygen supplies, exemplified by the oxygen shortages in India.

Finally, there was a real concern about the emergence of more lethal variants of the virus, particularly given the rapidly increasing number of infections and the vulnerability of immunocompromised individuals as potential incubators for new variants.

All these factors contributed to fears of a devastating societal and economic impact, as seen in the mass migrations of unemployed individuals in India returning to their hometowns and villages to support their families.

In my opinion, these considerations underscore why many measures taken during the pandemic were deemed necessary at the time.

Re:Post World War II Food by potato3732842 on Friday October 25, 2024 @09:35AM (#41945134)
>What the hell was so important that it couldn’t wait a few months?

How much runway do you think the average service industry business has?

How much runway do you think the people it employs has?

My favorite Chinese buffet is now an armed forces recruiting center. The adjacent movie theater is unoccupied. I can go on.

I'm not saying it should have been business as usual but to ignore that many parties lost big because of what was done is to be misleading at best.

Re:Post World War II Food by watwut on Friday October 25, 2024 @08:22AM (#41944541)
I think that it is completely unfair to try to pretend that there was good faith political intention beyond these. It was pure cynic "if I spread the bullshit I get more cake for myself and can harm enemies" decision making in the process.
Re:Post World War II Food by umanwizard on Friday October 25, 2024 @08:25AM (#41944564)
Well I'm someone who thinks the lockdowns were a bad idea because they genuinely made the world worse off, and I'm making that argument in good faith. Certainly not trying to harm anyone. What makes you think there's no good-faith argument to be made?
Re:Post World War II Food by veunes on Friday October 25, 2024 @02:19PM (#41948033)
The way people reacted to even small-scale inconveniences in recent years highlights just how much has shifted since the 1940s
Re:Post World War II Food by susiecambria on Thursday October 24, 2024 @06:28PM (#41940486)
Totally agree.

I think a lot about victory gardens since I moved to rural Virginia. Commercial agriculture is big here and some I've spoken with assume that because so much of the land is farmed, that individuals have gardens or know how to grow fruit and vegetables. But this is just not true. There is a huge difference between commercial agriculture and home gardens.

I haven't looked into it enough to determine if people don't know how to garden, rent so can't create a garden, or what. But I'll keep taking about it and maybe someone will do something about it.

Re:Post World War II Food by _heimdall on Thursday October 24, 2024 @07:19PM (#41940794)
One thing I learned after moving to a rural agriculture area is how few farmers produce their own food. It just doesn't happen with anyone farming commercially.

We're the weirdos around here with a small herd of dairy cows, pigs, and chickens along with a small-ish garden for ourselves.

Re:Post World War II Food by HeyLaughingBoy on Friday October 25, 2024 @04:53PM (#41949642)
Of course. They're far too tired after dealing with the farm all day.
Re:Post World War II Food by _heimdall on Friday October 25, 2024 @10:06PM (#41951919)
My grandfather managed a pretty large hog ranch back in the day. They still had a garden on the ranch that helped feed most of the families of the people who worked on the ranch.
Re:Post World War II Food by bobthepanda on Thursday October 24, 2024 @06:37PM (#41940557)
It is important to note that people in 1939 often did not have experience with this either. A lot of WWII rationing and planning focused on educating people on how to do these things in the first place.
Re:Post World War II Food by singleshot_ on Thursday October 24, 2024 @07:20PM (#41940802)
Also in 1939, people did not have experience self-organizing into bands of likeminded internet-enabled jerks. I posit this helped avoid civil strife immeasurably.
Re:Post World War II Food by wileydragonfly on Thursday October 24, 2024 @11:01PM (#41941868)
If you put three people in a room, two clubs will be formed immediately that leave one of them out. Internet has nothing to do with it.
Re:Post World War II Food by ssl-3 on Friday October 25, 2024 @12:40AM (#41942272)
So the two clubs have a membership of exactly 1 person each, and the remainder of exactly 1 person is unaffiliated?

Why not two clubs with 1 permanent member each, with one person swinging between them? Why not one club with 2 or 3 people? Why not 3 "clubs"?

Why must it be as you describe?

Re:Post World War II Food by faggotbreath on Friday October 25, 2024 @05:57AM (#41943754)
You’re gay.
Re:Post World War II Food by wileydragonfly on Friday October 25, 2024 @06:12PM (#41950334)
Don’t overthink this
Re:Post World War II Food by ssl-3 on Friday October 25, 2024 @07:09PM (#41950825)
Too late. It remains your move.
Re:Post World War II Food by ForOldHack on Sunday October 27, 2024 @02:40AM (#41960334)
I lived next door to a PhD in plant biology, who would almost foam at the mouth from anger about monoclonal farming. I asked him about alternatives...he said without even a thought: "victory gardens." Time for me to find out exactly why. Turns out the USDA brought all the regional managers and all the researchers to get together on very best practices. It has withstood the test of time. My sister in law planted one exactly out of the book. Plant for plant. Not even full sun and the crops explode. Another friend tried it at a rental unit with 5 galllon buckets. A bit screwed, but he also got great results.

Fundamentally a Victory garden is small scale soil managment at its very best. Thanks Gabe.

Re:Post World War II Food by ttepasse on Thursday October 24, 2024 @09:56PM (#41941620)
You may be interested in the early 90s BBC series The Wartime Kitchen and Garden, a series somewhat reenacting the homefront gardening effort in WWII Britain. It’s on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSxMUY_E07w

The series itself is a spinoff of the weirdly charming The Victorian Kitchen Garden which reenacted a year of growing in a victorian walled kitchen garden for a great house with a master gardener who learned his trade before WWII. It’s rather soothing, as the New Yorker noted at the start of the pandemic: https://archive.is/iAGgr

(Findable on Dailymotion)

Re:Post World War II Food by krisoft on Friday October 25, 2024 @06:54AM (#41944044)
> I'll keep taking about it and maybe someone will do something about it

What would you like to happen?

Where I live there are multiple allotments within walking distance from me. These are basically enclosed gardens where people can rent small plots to grow vegetables on. It is a nice hobby. You are outside a lot, have a nice comunal feel to it, you get produce you can feel proud of. But it is not really going to replace grocery stores for anyone. (Nor is it meant to.)

I can imagine scenairos where skills obtained from it would help resiliency and survival. But i can also imagine lot of other scenairos where other hobbies would do the same. Why is it growing small scale vegetable gardens is the skill to concentrate on?

Re:Post World War II Food by p3rls on Thursday October 24, 2024 @07:22PM (#41940819)
What? Do you not remember the war on terror or covid? Americans would bend over and ask to lick the boots for the nutritional value if a world war was going on.
Re:Post World War II Food by pyuser583 on Friday October 25, 2024 @12:33AM (#41942227)
There was a big crisis in the Spring of 43.

The US government realized they needed people to staff munitions factories more than they needed fresh recruits.

So the US government abolished voluntary enlistment, drafted new recruits, and told everyone else to get a job.

It did not go over well. People don’t like being told there is a crisis, but they should “stay home and do nothing.” Even if “do nothing” is building tanks.

So the government wisely fudged. The Coast Guard and Merchant Marine began recruiting. Paramilitary agencies were created. Proganda began pushing the importance of the “common man.”

People in the 1940s didn’t like being told to stay home and “mask up” any more than we do.

Re:Post World War II Food by bruce511 on Friday October 25, 2024 @01:18AM (#41942436)
I don't think they'd need, or want, to ration.

Rationing was necessary because pricing laws stopped prices from climbing. So demand was higher than supply.

Today there would not be rationing. Prices would be allowed to float, so things in short supply just get expensive. Fears of exhaustion cause people to stock-pile.

This is exactly the approach taken during, and after, the pandemic. It's simpler to let people complain about shortages and prices, and the rich can get whatever they like, as much as they like.

Look at the varied response to "stay home and mask up" - actions which are literally trivial to follow. No sane US govt would attempt "rationing" - the population would simply ignore them.

Re:Post World War II Food by m463 on Friday October 25, 2024 @03:13AM (#41942960)
> Today there would not be rationing. Prices would be allowed to float, so things in short supply just get expensive. Fears of exhaustion cause people to stock-pile.

is that what happened during covid for masks and toilet paper?

Re:Post World War II Food by justsid on Friday October 25, 2024 @01:36PM (#41947531)
Stores implemented limits per person/household, but you could easily work around those if you really wanted to. It wasn’t rationing on a federal or even just state level.
Re:Post World War II Food by mitthrowaway2 on Friday October 25, 2024 @01:39PM (#41947554)
What I recall in my area was retailers and distributors doing the rationing themselves; "limit 2 per customer" and so on. Masks often didn't make their way to retail shelves because hospitals had purchasing priority.

Retailers mostly didn't raise prices even when they could have, because it wouldn't have been worth the bad optics.

Some people skirted the rules, bought out store shelves and set up their own at higher prices, but they were pretty thoroughly shunned and some were later taken to court.

Re:Post World War II Food by Anotheroneagain on Friday October 25, 2024 @04:27AM (#41943352)
Overproduction was the problem at the time, not shortages. There was a shortage of money caused by loans - it was impossible to make money to both buy all the goods and pay all the loans. This is why money lending has to be banned, as it makes the markets stuck like this and causes a depression when the economy improves.
Re:Post World War II Food by lazide on Friday October 25, 2024 @07:40AM (#41944278)
Huh? How is the economy improved in a depression?
Re:Post World War II Food by Anotheroneagain on Friday October 25, 2024 @02:58PM (#41948466)
Loans cause a depression when there is plenty. A farmer takes a loan when the price of wheat is $2 a bushel. But the economy improves, there is plenty of wheat for everybody, so the price of wheat halves. The farmer can't react to it by growing less wheat, he has a loan to pay, he may even need to increase his production to be able to pay even with the reduced prices. This is happening to everybody. Any time money is made, part gets used to pay off debts, and isn't spent on goods that others produced, which further drives the prices down. You will soon reach a point when nobody will buy any more wheat for any price. You go bankrupt, and the bank gets your farm, but the farm is worthless, nobody's going to buy a farm in such an economy from the bank. The bank now has no money to fulfill its obligations. The money it lent you, and which was lost, is still on other people's accounts, so the bank can't give them their money when people demand to withdraw it. Nothing about it can be fixed by giving further loans - loans for consumption only create more debt in the process, and there is no opportunity for bussiness lians, as there is already too much of everything.
Re:Post World War II Food by umanwizard on Friday October 25, 2024 @07:38AM (#41944270)
Making people stay home is a more major restriction than rationing non-essential goods. Social interaction is more fundamentally important to humans than being able to eat chocolate etc.
Re:Post World War II Food by watwut on Friday October 25, 2024 @08:19AM (#41944515)
Food and gasoline are essential goods. The people were not overeating having to give up luxuries, they had trouble to get enough calories their bodies needed.
Re:Post World War II Food by rajnathani on Friday October 25, 2024 @02:57AM (#41942888)
Well, the article mentions preserving ham and eggs in tins in an era close to a 100 years ago, so I think that things will be fine.
Re:Post World War II Food by lupusreal on Friday October 25, 2024 @06:22AM (#41943884)
It probably depends... is it a necessary war for the legitimate defense of our country, or is it another bullshit futile war started by bankers or politicians trying to make some sort of twisted legacy for themselves?

Reminder that a significant portion of the American public opposed participation in WW2 until the US Navy got attacked by Japan and Germany subsequently declared war as well.

(And before anybody says it, refusing to sell oil to Japan so their armies could take over Asia wasn't America declaring war on Japan, nor did it give Japan a legitimate or rational cause to attack America. Japan caused war for themselves by their own imperialist ambitions.)

Re:Post World War II Food by veunes on Friday October 25, 2024 @02:17PM (#41948016)
On top of that, there’s the added complexity of global supply chains and digital consumption. Imagine rationing electronics or internet