It’s just not ready for a non-technical user. Try to explain to your mother how to properly get NVIDIA graphics cards running. I couldn’t even do it myself. When I installed Debian, the included open source drive was unusable (lagging even when just moving the mouse) so I wanted to get the driver by NVIDIA. You need to mess around with secure boot and even then, I couldn’t log in using Wayland and would just loop back to the login screen because Wayland didn’t start properly. That’s not acceptable for noobs.

For a "mother proof" / "noob" system, I'd recommend:

1. Install Ubuntu 2. Select closed source Nvidia driver during install 3. Done

I don't recall having to mess with secure boot -- is that some dual boot thing?

My mother taught me to program, and ran my first programs (FORTRAN) on paper with me. Please don't casually use "mother" or "grandmother" to mean technically incompetent.

>Try to explain to your mother how to properly get NVIDIA graphics cards running

why would she need that? 1. on almost all big distros thats included by default 2. 99% of user do not use a GPU they just browse the web.

For 1., I was citing Debian as an example which doesn’t include it, and that’s certainly a big distro. Other might be better and this isn’t needed for them. For 2., as i said, the default driver was absolutely unusable for me.

no mom is gonna install debian lol besides are we gonna act like there are no drivers needed on windows? People will get the information how to install the drivers like on windows. By using a search engine.

Two problems here:

1. Debian has ideological reasons for not including nvidia. If you're not a proponent of FOSS software, you wouldn't even look to Debian. It's popular because it's a good distro, but it's a very particular kind of distro.

2. Debian Stable does now include nvidia drivers. Yes, they relented, specifically because of situations like yours. Personally, I think it's a good thing they relented.

Yeah, the ideal Linux desktop for non-technical people is a Chromebook. Roast me if you want, but that's what my mom uses. I did have her using a Ubuntu install awhile ago but the amount of times I had to provide technical support or her to do very normal stuff just made it impractical.

My mom gives a f** about Nvidia.

Well does she give a f** about a usable computer? Because you have to care about Nvidia to get Linux working if you have a nvidia graphics card.

My mom doesn't have nvidia gpu. She doesn't need it, so it was not purchased for her. She uses Intel integrated graphics, that's all what she needs. It is perfectly usable computer.

Thus, a side effect is no need to install any third-party drivers at all.

So the response to "Linux isn't ready for mass adoption due to suboptimal driver availability" is "Well it works on one machine I care about"? Good for you, but how does that contradict my point? Is the solution to not just switch everyone over to Linux but also get new graphics cards for everyone who has a nvidia GPU (which is probably the majority)?

No, the point is, that when you are switching someone to linux, especially when it is a "normie", that would not be capable of installing windows either (nevermind dealing with windows update overwriting their oem driver), you do that for them.

Edit: No, most users do not have Nvidia GPU. Most Steam gamers do. But gamers are not entire computer market; it is just a small slice of the market. Meanwhile, Intel iGPU is the majority.

I want to love Linux, but No. Last time I tried Mint, I had to use a script that runs on startup to configure mouse scrollweel speed?!

No.

There's probably a long list of these types of experiences ranging from scaling issues on external monitors (if they work at all) to other basic hardware and functionality just not working.

The best coders I know use Mac or even Windows while managing FreeBSD on their servers. There are reasons why they don't use Linux or (non-Apple) Unix on their desktop.

There are 2 usable desktop OS'es for the masses and those are Windows and Mac. Don't take my word for it, just look at the market. The market has spoken.

Would you like a list of the hours needed to deshittify Windows (and free disk space)? Preventing macos telemetry is another time sink.

There’s no free lunch.

I've never had to deshittify Windows, everything just works. But every time install Linux, I have to spend hours searching for little configuration problems. Like why Ctrl+C doesn't work in the terminal. Why doesn't Shift+arrow select text? Yes, there are solutions for these problems, but you have either install some crap or copy-paste stuff into config files.

> Like why Ctrl+C doesn't work in the terminal.

Bad example, this is the same as asking why doesn't sudo work in windows.

Sudo is a thing now in Windows [1]

[1] https://devblogs.microsoft.com/commandline/introducing-sudo-...

sudo literally works in Windows.

Both in Windows itself as well as in WSL.

This post is evidence against. There’s hundreds more. Ctrl+C has always worked—but there are real issues, which makes me think you’re not being honest.

>Ctrl-C

Ctrl-C it's a signal. Now, try creating these folders under Windows:

- NUL

- AUX

- PRN

- COM

Good luck.

I don't care about creating such folders.

But I care about Ctrl+C working.

Your obscure requirements are meaningless.

I'm happy to report Ctrl+C doesn't work in cmd either.

Also if Windows is perfect out of the box then just use Windows. For me, I'd always have to spend hours configuring Windows to not be shitty and to adapt to my workflow. At that point I'm better off just running Debian.

Ctrl+C also doesn't "work" (assuming you mean "copy text"?) in Windows command prompt last I checked. (Ctrl+Insert I believe performs copy.)

I don't think it's that bad, the duration is certainly not enumerated in hours, at least on Windows. It depends on how high a standard you have, but since other people were long aware of the issue, third-party scripts and software to automate a lot of the tedium exist and work pretty well, anything else can be smoothed out by hand.

Freeing up the disk space in a VM is definitely an hours long struggle the first time, must count research time into it as well. I did it last year. Don’t forget the privacy tweaks and research. Sure you could script most of it, like anywhere.

so you don't trust ms but you trust a script from some guy in his mom's basement in Russia?

Any such tools that are worth their salt have their code posted publicly, you can check it yourself. Most of it isn't some groundbreaking stuff, a lot can be stripped out by just changing registry values and other deeply-ingrained settings that would take a long time to find and edit by hand. I also don't see how "trust into Microsoft" factors in here - it's not about trust, we know there's telemetry that can't be disabled through standard settings, and I know there are features I'd like to uproot entirely (like deep OneDrive integration).

Yeah I can't deal with rug pulls every version. I use xmonad on linux, with no rug for anybody to pull on me.

Yeah, I use Mint on my laptop (not my main PC), but it's a bit rough around the edges. I spent an hour trying to get the fingerprint reader to work, having to compile the driver myself, and it's still a bit buggy sometimes.

Bluetooth also randomly bugs out, mouse or airpods refuse to connect for no reason. Touchpad a bit wonky, pinch zoom doesn't work out of the box, I assume it's some setting somewhere but can't be bothered.

Discord can't update itself, I have to download and install it from a file each update.

Little things that add up to hours and hours of your time wasted.

>Last time I tried Mint, I had to use a script that runs on startup to configure mouse scrollweel speed

not a linux but Mint issue. Both Plasma and GNOME offer this.

Not trying to be a jerk to you but this is the type of response that keeps Windows firmly ahead of Linux. Most users don't care who in the Linux ecosystem is at fault for things not working, they just know some function that works without a thought on Windows is an issue on Linux and they don't care about who in what stack is to blame. If they have to research which combination of distro, desktop environment, and bundle of hacks and flags they need, they'll go back to Windows where the scroll wheel just works. Ditto for all the excuses and finger pointing over audio, printing, and dozens of other pain points that have lingered around for decades.

>this is the type of response that keeps Windows firmly ahead of Linux

and that is fine. they can keep using a continuously worse and hostile OS while linux just keeps on improving with or without them :)

The surveillance, ads, and preference reverts just work as well. Choose your poison.

The problem is that people expect Linux to work exactly the same as Windows. But they simultaneously expect it to fix all the things Windows has broken. Those two aren't compatible.

Linux desktops having different design philosophies is why they're any good. if they worked like Windows, they would suck ass, and nobody would even think about switching. I mean, really? Windows or shitty cheap Windows? Come on now. We need to think about what makes Linux intriguing in the first place.

You can talk about design philosophy all you want. You can confirm that Windows sucks all you want (I agree).

That doesn't change the fact that my external monitor doesn't work and will never work on Linux/Unix (random example, I can give you tons of others of things not working).

Is it Linux's fault? No. Does it make Linux suck in that it is completely unusable for most people? Yes.

Apple (and System76 and Frame.work) understood this and are changing this fortunately.

It’s not like those are better. I switched back from Fedora KDE a month or so ago. If it isn’t mouse scroll wheel it’s fractional scaling in X11 applications. And if it isn’t that then it is broken hibernation. And if it isn’t that it is broken fan control. And if it isn’t that then it’s device driver support. And if it isn’t that then it is that one application that supports Linux but actually doesn’t well enough to be usable.

There is always something messed up. At least with Windows, people have spent time building scripts to remove the garbage.

> fractional scaling in X11 applications

Very real, no solution either. The only solution is Wayland.

> broken hibernation

This is broken on Windows, too. Basically, suspend to RAM just doesn't work properly/reliably on a bunch of laptop manufacturers firmware.

> device driver support

Pretty much not a problem on x86 and commodity hardware. It becomes a problem on ARM because ARM is a hot mess, but then again that's the case on Windows, too. Some laptops have strange hardware, unfortunately. This is becoming less of a problem as time goes on.

> supports Linux but actually doesn’t well enough

Getting better with containerization deployments like Flatpak.

In 2024, Mint is a net negative to Linux adoption and its name.

I try to completely get into Linux desktop at least once a year.. Been more than 20 years I've been doing that. There is always some blocker. Had 2-3 months of exclusive linux use a couple of times but never stuck.

My latest main issue btw:

Fractional scaling does not work reliably. It just results in different type of fuckery for different apps. Yeah yeah I know wayland x11 this that. No. There are workarounds for different apps, env vars, cmd line flags. Some simply do not cooperate (JetBrains...) It is complete shit show.

It is just not worth it. I'm fine with macOS desktop and Linux on servers. And I salute all the masochists running Linux on their desktops.

At this point, I am afraid that you will never be able to switch to Linux completely. You know what they say, can't teach old dog new tricks. Linux has it's issues and Windows also has it's own issues. You have to choose which ones you can live with one you cannot.

For me, I use a FHD display where 100% scaling looks the best and also it's the small things I cannot live without, like Super+drag to drag/scale windows from anywhere, middle-click paste, powerful POSIX shells (yes, yes I know PowerShell, too old to learn a new shell), etc. But I cannot live with Windows privacy nightmare, mouse-heavy desktop environment.

Just do use what you like. Just have fun computing.

> mouse-heavy desktop environment

Ironically, Windows still being the best system for keyboard GUI usage is an important reason why I continue using it. With Cygwin for my POSIX shell needs.

I am on Windows for the same reason but KDE finally has fractional scaling that works just as well as Windows. AFAIK, it is the only Linux DE that has it though.

Hasn't fractional scaling always been a problem on Linux? How is it your latest issue, did you never use Hi-DPI screens before?

I say “latest” in relation to years of issues. I’d probably get around other smaller stuff at the moment. But the fractional scaling simply blocks me from using desktop linux at the moment.

It might be easier to buy a 2x resolution display, like the 2.8K Display on the framework laptop, and not have to deal with fractional scaling.

Personal anecdote, installed Linux Mint on an old Laptop of a friend. First thing, we open Firefox and go to YouTube, hard freeze of the whole OS. Not a single key worked anymore.

Not the best advertisement for the stable and better OS Linux I was showing him.

I like Linux, but sadly Windows will keep the monopoly for a long time.

i'd rather have MS taking 8GB away from my 1TB disk than having Linux taking away at least 6 hours of my life per week cause something broke or cause I have to hoop through the entire internet to install or configure some shit that could've been a single click in windows.

This isn't 2010 any more. If you're doing any dev work at all native linux will cause way less headaches than WSL/mingw or whatever. Even the old folks in my family are all using linux these days because everything they do is in a browser and it's easier for them than windows. That and microsoft constantly changing things out from under you and reverting settings you thought you picked for your own computer.

> This isn't 2010 any more.

I've used Linux Desktop for 2 years in 2018 for IT studies, it was mandatory. We were like 20 students and there was a new Linux-related complaint, timewaste and workaround every day. Nobody got their degree and thought "Y'know what? i'm gonna use linux at home!"

I still use Linux for servers nowadays, though.

> If you're doing any dev work at all native linux will cause way less headaches than WSL/mingw or whatever.

I use visual studio and I don't dev for linux, so I don't have this problem.

> Even the old folks in my family are all using linux these days because everything they do is in a browser and it's easier for them than windows.

If all you do is use a web browser, you might as well just use a chromebook.

> That and microsoft constantly changing things out from under you and reverting settings

My settings are never touched, but I agree they sometimes change stuff in a way that bothers me. Like, removing file explorer functionality in W11 and remaking it months later. But they usually make up for it by adding other cool features. Such as native (but slow) unzipping, file explorer tabs, power toys and so on.

Yes, Microsoft will not touch your settings if you haven't disabled all the anti-features they force upon users.

For the rest of us, they are relentless. They won't take no for an answer. They won't hesitate to take their users' precious time as hostage. During each update, they coerce users to enable their numerous spyware with full screen nags riddled with dark patterns. They revert explicit opt-outs. They remove user choice altogether if things don't go their way. This has been reported in the media so many times. You can't just pretend that this hasn't happened.

When is enough enough? Windows bombards you with ads, installs junkware users never asked for, forces you to use Edge, collects keyboard input, records your screen, and outright steals your email. On top of that, their UX is far worse than it was 2 decades ago.

In contrast, desktop Linux has improved dramatically. Unzipping and file browser tabs? They've been around since forever. They're only cool new features on Windows.

> If all you do is use a web browser, you might as well just use a chromebook.

Which is Linux.

We know MacOS is Unix. We know Linux server runs most of the internet. We know Android is Linux. Thanks for your input.

We were obviously talking about the classic Linux Desktop distros, and based on the whole conversation you should know that. If ChromeOS and Android were categorized as Linux distros, then nobody would hate/love Linux Desktop per se.

> We know MacOS is Unix.

We're obviously talking about Linux, not "Unix", and based on the whole conversation you should know that. Thanks for your input.

> If ChromeOS and Android

One is traditionally used on a laptop/desktop, one on a phone, not sure why you're conflating the two.

And the point is, if you are "just using a web browser", desktop linux has done this for decades. And Chrome OS is definitely a desktop linux distro, why do you not consider it to be one?

Linux without the shitty aspects of having to use desktop Linux.

The only downside is how firmly it is wedded to Google's cloud ecosystem.

> cool features. Such as native (but slow) unzipping, file explorer tabs

Linux circa 2005. I will admit that the file explorer ads are a nice feature. Maybe one day ubuntu will figure out how to do this.

> I use visual studio

That's not a solution. Visual Studio isn't portable, it's very close to worthless software. You can use VS, my company does too. But the baggage you take with it is pretty extreme. And now we're still maintaining COM stuff (sigh...)

> If all you do is use a web browser, you might as well just use a chromebook

Ironically, chromebooks have a full Linux environment and you can install graphical applications and whatnot. Also they run android apps.

> Such as native (but slow) unzipping, file explorer tabs, power toys and so on

Those are "neat" features, but IMO Windows 11 is still not a good desktop environment. KDE has significantly more features, is much more customizable, and also much more consistent in look and feel. Windows USED to at least be polished. Now there's 3 different setting apps and also Computer Management exists and none of them even look like they belong on the same system.

Yeah, I know Linux can do gaming, dev and is stable and good. But there is always something which needs a hack / fix, different lib or something.

"Normal" people just take the convenience of a working system out of the box than having a privacy respecting OS.

Personal anecdote, installed Linux Mint on an old Laptop of a friend. First thing, we open Firefox and go to YouTube, hard freeze of the whole OS. Not a single key worked anymore.

Not the best advertisement for the stable and better OS Linux I was showing him.

How certain are you it was a problem with Mint and not an issue with the laptop itself?

I have been a full-time Linux use for over a decade, running Linux desktop on all my machines. But there is a reason for the year of Linux desktop not coming: it is garbage. Horrible defaults everywhere, every customization is hidden in some totally unexpected place, bad error handling, driver quality all over the place...

Learning Linux as a user and developer made my career, but I use it at home just out of spite (I feel a special hate towards MS), and not because it is such a great experience.

I just got back from a work trip and conference where, for four days, my laptop couldn't go to sleep and wake back up. Every time my laptop went into my bag, I had to fully shut down the entire system then when I got where I was going spend a bunch of time starting everything back up, getting all my context back up, etc.

Good luck trying to search for sleep issues on Linux... I only managed to hunt anything down due to some incredible luck and a couple educated guesses.

Apparently some recent systemd update decided to start freezing user.slice during suspend and either there's something wrong with this or there are bugs in the kernel (I'm not going to try and figure out which) that this fails if you use unusual and esoteric things like "kvm" or "nfs". The only way to recover the machine when this happens is a particular Magic SysRq incantation since even switching to a console TTY doesn't work directly.

To resolve this in the meantime, you need to add a drop-in conf for systemd-suspend.service to set the `SYSTEMD_SLEEP_FREEZE_USER_SESSIONS` environment variable to revert the change in behaviour.

This isn't even getting into all the esoteric bullshit involved in getting everything to a reasonably usable state in the first place. (Never did get full disk encryption working and partial encryption involved a lot of failed starts and reinstalls; Steam wouldn't show anything but a black screen without setting DRI_PRIME; fingerprint scanner required editing some PAM configs and still doesn't _really_ work right; ...)

There is no chance in hell that the hours I've invested in Linux don't completely eclipse the hours it takes to deshittify Windows.

I'm not switching off, but I'm not also going to be flippant about suggesting other people switch to Linux. It's a project, and not one everyone is willing or capable to take on.