I would imagine that they've been feeding these booby-trapped devices to the supply chain for at least a few months and showing that multiple devices are potentially bombs is just an even more powerful psychological victory. What devices can they even trust now? Will they need to go back to sneakernet?

   Rule 12. Indiscriminate attacks are those:
   (a) which are not directed at a specific military objective;
   (b) which employ a method or means of combat which cannot be directed at a specific military objective; or
   (c) which employ a method or means of combat the effects of which cannot be limited as required by international humanitarian law; and consequently, in each such case, are of a nature to strike military objectives and civilians or civilian objects without distinction.

(b) The pagers were specifically distributed to Hezbollah operatives, not civilians. It targeted, by definition, the owners of those pagers, supporting the military objective.

(c) It was limited, by definition. This contained tiny amount of explosives, focused very much on targeting the owner of the device, not “civilians or civilian objects without distinction” (from military objectives).

No violation here.

Once again, people in that grocery store who were standing near the militant mostly walked away - you can see that on nearly every video that has been released.

A non-targeted attack would have been a rocket hitting the grocery store. This was, by definition, a targeted attack. Even if a person had stood there and shot the militant directly, and there had been a civilian that caught a stray bullet, this would still have been a targeted attack.

As it is, eight Hezbollah militants have died, and the one civilian injury was a Hezbollah militant’s daughter; killing a child was clearly not the intent.

That’s a successful military operation.

That there was collateral damage is unfortunate, but Israel was definitely not indiscriminately targeting civilians, which is what would make it terrorism.

This was a surgical strike that happened to have some unfortunate collateral damage. Well within the accepted rules of war.

Some civilians got hurt, but the intent was not to harm them, and that is the point.

What makes you think that I did not watch them? And why do you think a few videos circulating online are representative of a few thousands explosions?

> Some civilians got hurt, but the intent was not to harm them

What makes „some“ any different than a hundred or a million? How can you be certain of the intent if civilian casualties were/should have been anticipated?

> What makes „some“ any different than a hundred or a million? How can you be certain of the intent if civilian casualties were/should have been anticipated?

The point I’m trying to make is that there was a very small amount of explosive in each device. They could have added more material had they wanted to do more damage.

There were many ways to make this far more damaging, and they could simply have shot rockets or bombs from the air.

This was a targeted attack, focused on the specific users of these devices, who are Hezbollah militants. Bystanders were not intended to be harmed, which makes this, by definition, a discriminate and surgical attack on Hezbollah militants.

I’m not really sure what about that isn’t clear.

When planning such operation you cannot be certain that:

1. all the devices will land in hands of legitimate targets (e.g. pagers could be used in hospitals by doctors and nurses etc).

2. all those devices will be actually used by targets at the moment of explosion (exploded device could be left at home near family members)

3. there will be no civilians in the range of explosion (even if the range is short, in a crowd people can still be injured or killed).

Because of that civilian casualties should be anticipated at unknown scale. Since Israel pulled the trigger knowing that, it means they deliberately targeted civilians along with legitimate targets.

Their strategic goal was of course to make an impressive hit on Hezbollah. However it is not clear if they really cared about collateral damage or just minimized the weight of the bomb to avoid discovery.

2. Of course you can’t guarantee this, but the expectation is that operatives have these devices on them, as it is how they communicate with the rest of Hezbollah. That is a reasonable assumption in the fog of war.

3. Of course you can’t guarantee that. You minimize casualties by making the impact smaller but still meaningful; by using less explosive, but still enough to accomplish the goal.

There are no guarantees in war. Ops fail sometimes. You try to predict collateral damage, which Israel clearly did, by targeting specific devices used by and distributed by Hezbollah, and by using a relatively small amount of explosive.

Both of those things indicate that care was put into minimizing collateral damage. Even if they minimized the amount of explosive to avoid detection, that still accomplished the secondary effect of minimizing damage.

This was as successful a military op as it gets.

Hezbollah actually runs hospitals and employs doctors and nurses in them, so, "they were purchased by Hezbollah, for Hezbollah" is not, even if one assumes it is true, even remote support for "these weren't used by doctors and nurses".

In addition to being a political party, and having an armed wing, Hezbollah operates a fairly extensive set of social services.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah_social_services

I did not misunderstand what Hezbollah was, please. I spent years working intel. I'm well aware that terrorist groups often provide social services to the civilians they claim to protect. In large part, it's how terrorist groups often maintain power.

This attack did not target doctors or nurses. It targeted Hezbollah operatives. Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, and Israel is at war with them. Social services run by Hezbollah were not the target, but if a doctor or nurse happens to be a Hezbollah operative, then they were targeted.

Again: the goal was Hezbollah operatives. If you were a doctor or nurse and unaffiliated with Hezbollah, you were not targeted.

I'm not really sure how to be more clear.

So you used juxtaposition of concepts you new were unrelated to create a false impression knowingly, rather than because you failed to understand the nature of the situation, and we are to take the deliberately dishonest propaganda technique as superior to genuine ignorance?

But no matter how many words you use to say that, it will remain untrue.

I did not intend to create a false impression, imply any kind of propaganda, be dishonest, or anything else. Your implication is, frankly, insulting.

My contention is very simple: they targeted Hezbollah operatives, very clearly, and given this particular vulnerability could not really have targeted them any more specifically. These were devices that were owned by and used by Hezbollah operatives, regardless of their role in the organization. Civilians did not use these devices, and the intent was not to harm any civilians.

The end. I'm done playing your games, as I believe I have stated my position very clearly, and at this point you are intentionally missing the point solely to argue some misguided other point about moral relativism.

Have a lovely week.

Do you have any hard evidence of that? It is absolutely plausible scenario that Hezbollah distributed some of the devices to non-members as part of civil defense plan. In case of the war they may want to have a reliable and authoritative communication channel to civilians.

> Of course you can’t guarantee this, but the expectation is that operatives have these devices on them, as it is how they communicate with the rest of Hezbollah. That is a reasonable assumption in the fog of war.

No, it is not reasonable assumption, on the contrary, and we have seen that. It does look like most of the victims weren’t on duty, so it is reasonable to assume that they won‘t be carrying the device all the time.

> 3. Of course you can’t guarantee that. You minimize casualties by making the impact smaller but still meaningful; by using less explosive, but still enough to accomplish the goal.

Minimize != avoid. They knew that the explosion may harm the wrong person, because they did not take the measures to prevent that (chosen method made it impossible). This is indiscriminate attack by definition.

Israel exploited an opportunity here to strike Hezbollah's communications network and leadership surgically; they did just that. No, there are never any guarantees there will be no collateral damage.

I'm done explaining that, as I think I have been very clear.

Is your contention that they should have individually confirmed each device was in each owner's pocket before triggering the explosions? That would be both impossible and unreasonable to expect.

(And thank you for engaging in good faith, rather than resorting to ad hominem nonense)

Yes, that would be impossible. This is the exact reason why it shouldn’t have happened. Israel must seek diplomatic solutions to these hostilities instead of testing ethical boundaries of warfare. I have reasons to believe they exist, even if it may seem a long way.

You don't win a war by not fighting.

As the attacker, it is incumbent upon Hezbollah to signal diplomacy.

By the same token, it is incumbent on Russia to signal that they would like to engage diplomatically, not Ukraine. It is entirely clear that Ukraine is willing to engage diplomatically, if and only if Russia retreats and surrenders, as they were the aggressor.

Anyway, I think we’ve both said our piece here, and I understand your position.

The „distrust“ cannot be seriously considered an objective, only if for short term. Next time they will add extra checks of incoming equipment, add random distribution and rotation of devices and problem will be solved.

> Welcome to warfare

Let’s not normalize it by such talks.

That's not true; for one thing, their communications infrastructure is now completely gone. Organizing is made much more difficult. Moreover, there is no guarantee that this wasn't Israel intending to force Hezbollah to use cellular means or other means of communication that Israel has already tapped/broken, giving Israel yet another advantage.

Also, they don't know if there are other devices that are compromised, so the next days will either be tossing all battery-powered equipment they own or inspecting it all, causing disruption to their plans for battle, which means this was a massive win.

> Let’s not normalize it by such talks.

Hate to break it to you, but war is normal. People have been fighting wars since we've existed on this Earth. It's not fun to talk about, but war is war.

I look forward to one day having real peace on Earth, but we're definitely not there yet.

You'll never hear me say war is good. It's awful.

It's a horrific attack with awful innocent deaths at the same time that any conventional attack that achieved the same impact on Hezbollah would have been even worse for those around them.

Otherwise:

1) UN Resolution: Done

2) Camp-David (or other such): Hezbollah has repeatedly refused to engage in any negotiations.

3) Something New: Okay, but until a never-before-seen peace genius comes up with that, and given the ineffectiveness of #1 and #2, we're left with the status quo where less bad options are the awful best to be hoped for.

Well, not exactly. The recent actions of Hezbollah are connected to Palestinian cause. If Israeli-Palestinian conflict is resolved, what does it leave to Hezbollah? It may not collapse, but Palestine becomes a major political factor. That’s the reason I mentioned Camp-David and „something new“. If statehood of Palestine is secured and adequate solution for refugees is offered, it will be the key to resolution of many conflicts in that region.

If you're broadening the discussion to the wider context, how do you reconcile this opinion with the origins and current stated goals of Hezbollah and other groups involved in these many conflicts?

Hezbollah is fundamentally against the existence of Israel: "It's destination is manifested in our motto, 'Death to Israel'." --Hezbollah secretary general Nasrallah circa 2022

I don't know why you keep mentioning Camp David if you are thinking in terms of Palestinian statehood. Hamas has the destruction of Israel baked into its founding charter. In fact that charter specifically calls out the Camp David agreement from 1978 as treacherous and outright rejects any negotiated peace, especially of the "Camp David" variety: "These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters." (Chapter 13 of the Hamas Covenant)

They are not set in stone.

> Hamas has the destruction of Israel baked into its founding charter.

Hamas is not Palestine.

I understand what are you talking about, but let me remind you that there were precedents in history of a political reconciliation with terrorist organizations (namely FARC). It requires a lot of goodwill and a lot of work. Israel does practically nothing in that regard, actually moving in the direction that leads to more radicalization.

On the other hand you now have a few thousand people who suffered unpleasant but not debilitating injuries who are now sadder, wiser, and very very pissed off. My impression is that many of those attacked could have been middle managers or mid-ranking officers. They're now veterans of a traumatizing national event, which will probably increase Hezbollah's standing among the general populace.

(The notion of Hezbollah as a mob of ak-47 wielding foot soldiers is a stereotype from movies and TV that seems to have taken root among many HN readers.)

Consider how Gaza has been pounded mercilessly for most of a year now, with the burden falling mainly on civilians, but they're not turning on Hamas.

It is a militia. Sure, they also now formed a political party, but that doesn't really hide what their goals are.

1) We have no evidence that they are genuinely 'dismantling' a terrorist organization at all, let alone surgically. 2) We literally just know 'Israel is making consumer goods explode'.

3) Israel should absolutely be designated as a terrorist state, and this incident should be used as leverage to dismantle all unconstitutional anti-BDS laws in the US.

1) The victims of yesterday's attack were overwhelmingly terrorist soldiers and mid-level management which fits the definition of surgical. If the results of this operation are as good as suggested by all the early reports, they just carved a major hole in the upper ranks of the organization (not even including the major damage they've caused over the last six months with surgical strikes on leaders).

2) We don't have confirmation that's it's them (but it likely is), and we know far more than that: we know that it incapacitated thousands of members of a designated terrorist organization with minimal impact outside of them.

3) Well, that's just your opinion, man.

A foreign government that flatly refuses to registrer it's influence organization under FARA has taken away one of the most important rights of all Americans, whether they realize it or not.

starting? they've been cheering for hamas from day 1, and now I'm sure they'll have some motions to pass about a Hezbollah minion having the rights to keep his balls...

However, I do find anti-BDS laws very hard to justify. It seems that many conflate antizionism with antisemitism, probably because some of the most vocal people are actually just dogwhistling against Jews in general. However, there is a large contingent of people, especially in the West, who are opposed to Israel's battlefield tactics and the current conflict, while simultaneously believing that Israel has a right to exist and defend themselves. Those people might reasonably decide that they want to boycott Israel or Israeli products to make their views heard (hit them in the pocketbook), but are prohibited from expressing themselves by these laws.

Are they unconstitutional in the US? One would imagine that if the Citizens United case says that money is speech, that would equally apply to people who want to boycott Israel. After all, we already tolerate much worse forms of antisemtic speech here. Why would we not also tolerate people voting with their money?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-BDS_laws

That said, before more people jump on the rethoric of declaring a specific entity terrorist:

The decision is usually made by your state's authorities, and depending on where you live, Hezbollah might not be considered a terrorist organization, or its military wing might be considered terrorist, but not Hezbollah as a whole (like in the EU).

Since we've seen medics among the victims, it's pretty clear that this was not surgically targeting a the military wing, and thus few people would dare claim that this was targeted against terrorists.

Sounds successful and well targeted.

If you don't want your electronics to explode randomly, don't attack Jews.

Will every teddy bear now need to be scanned for explosives before entering the country?

We aggressively scan packages for drugs, explosives, certain precursors, etc.

And forms of this attack have already happened in the past, including intentional food tainting and anthrax.

Yes, you should scan your mail, physical or digital.

If this didn't happen in real life, I would think that the scenario was too far-fetched and unrealistic. That's some seriously impressive attack.

History puts pretty much everyone in the world living on land that was taken from someone else at some point in time. And if we all did our best to move to where our parents/GPs/GGPs came from we'd again face the issue of that land having been taken previously.

This line of thinking is turtles all the way down and in no way a helpful path towards getting two peoples who believe in opposing views to stop killing each other.

No one (in this thread) said anything about "plant[ing] a war". But (restricted to this particular issue), if there was one side looking for "soil on which to plan a war" -- it would have to be all of those currently involved in or supporting the expansion of the settlements (in any form, to any degree), of course.

Is there an alternative view that better supports a belief of Israel trying to take it all away from Palestinians?

Perhaps not literally all of it, but there are many indications that a plan is underway to annex at least very large chunks of (if not all of) the West Bank.

Here's just a start:

Israel’s leaked plan for annexing the West Bank, explained - https://mondoweiss.net/2024/06/israels-leaked-plan-for-annex...

NYT: Israeli Official Describes Secret Government Bid to Cement Control of West Bank - https://archive.md/DQ1N3

As of 2019, 42 percent want to annex all or some of the West Bank, 28 are opposed, and 30 percent prefer to keep their heads in the sand, according to Haaretz:

   A 2019 Haaretz poll investigated support for annexation among Israelis. According to the survey, 30% did not know, 28% of Israelis opposed any annexation and 15% supported annexing Area C alone. 27% wanted to annex the entire West Bank including 16% who opposed granting political rights to Palestinians and 11% who favored granting political rights.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_Israeli_annexation_of...

>settlement expansion

Yes, that is a huge problem for any attempt at long term two-state solutions to be considered. It would be less of a problem if Israel at least did not deny permits etc. to Palestinian settlers to Area C. Security vetting really shouldn't rule out 99% of applicants. In this respect especially Israel appears to have been less diligent about the land-use aspect of the Oslo Accords.

For annexation, I don't think we can go by Smotrich's word. He's only finance minister through political back-room dealing. Likewise the Likud's 2017 non-binding resolution appears to be more political theatre than policy. But yes, still troubling.

So again, I don't see this sufficient to support violent resistance. Support for annexation appears to be on the rise during this period, probably or at least in part as a result.

Everyone seems ready and willing to play into near the worst expectations of their perceived enemies in fear they'll suffer the consequence of that expectation even if it doesn't come true. That's the cycle that needs to break.

That's a question of perspective.

The best course of action for all concerned would be for Israel not to continually take actions which seem specifically designed to drive an entire population into a state of permanent despair (compounded by permanent PTSD), against which non-violent actions seem to have little to no effect.

Why did Hezbollah start firing rockets into Israel in the first place? it was totally unprovoked. Now they are reaping what they sowed.

/s