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Re:Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sourc... by ivan_gammel on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @02:08PM (#41583427)
> 1. Those pagers were purchased by Hezbollah, for Hezbollah. They were distributed by Hezbollah, to Hezbollah. I have extremely little doubt that Israel had intel telling them this, and that these weren’t used by hospitals by doctors and nurses.

Do you have any hard evidence of that? It is absolutely plausible scenario that Hezbollah distributed some of the devices to non-members as part of civil defense plan. In case of the war they may want to have a reliable and authoritative communication channel to civilians.

> Of course you can’t guarantee this, but the expectation is that operatives have these devices on them, as it is how they communicate with the rest of Hezbollah. That is a reasonable assumption in the fog of war.

No, it is not reasonable assumption, on the contrary, and we have seen that. It does look like most of the victims weren’t on duty, so it is reasonable to assume that they won‘t be carrying the device all the time.

> 3. Of course you can’t guarantee that. You minimize casualties by making the impact smaller but still meaningful; by using less explosive, but still enough to accomplish the goal.

Minimize != avoid. They knew that the explosion may harm the wrong person, because they did not take the measures to prevent that (chosen method made it impossible). This is indiscriminate attack by definition.

Re:Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sourc... by borski on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @02:19PM (#41583573)
I think you have either intentionally or unintentionally missed my point, and you're talking past me now. War never has any guarantees. You do the best you can, and you do the best the intel suggests, and you minimize and avoid civilian casualties as best you can.

Israel exploited an opportunity here to strike Hezbollah's communications network and leadership surgically; they did just that. No, there are never any guarantees there will be no collateral damage.

I'm done explaining that, as I think I have been very clear.

Re:Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sourc... by ivan_gammel on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @02:48PM (#41583913)
You have been very clear in repeating the same argument again and again. I and few other commenters here think it is flawed, because you just assert rather than demonstrate sufficient care about preventing civilian casualties. It is obvious that Israel did target Hezbollah operatives. It is not obvious - and you did not prove that — they were not indiscriminate when triggering the explosions.
Re:Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sourc... by borski on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @02:56PM (#41584008)
By targeting Hezbollah operatives, and by including a small amount of explosive rather than a large amount, triggering the explosions was intended to harm the Hezbollah operatives.

Is your contention that they should have individually confirmed each device was in each owner's pocket before triggering the explosions? That would be both impossible and unreasonable to expect.

(And thank you for engaging in good faith, rather than resorting to ad hominem nonense)

Re:Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sourc... by ivan_gammel on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @05:49PM (#41585947)
> Is your contention that they should have individually confirmed each device was in each owner's pocket before triggering the explosions? That would be both impossible and unreasonable to expect.

Yes, that would be impossible. This is the exact reason why it shouldn’t have happened. Israel must seek diplomatic solutions to these hostilities instead of testing ethical boundaries of warfare. I have reasons to believe they exist, even if it may seem a long way.

Re:Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sourc... by borski on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @06:52PM (#41586516)
Israel is at war with Hezbollah. I'm all for diplomatic solutions, but that requires both sides to desire one, and Hezbollah has shown no desire. Neither has Israel, but again: Israel is at war.

You don't win a war by not fighting.

Re:Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sourc... by ivan_gammel on Thursday September 19, 2024 @02:26AM (#41589133)
By this logic the war can be stopped only by victory. As we know from history diplomacy can work. Israel has an advantage in this war, so they could have started exploring diplomatic solution instead of continuing escalation. Hezbollah has made it clear that their recent strikes are related to operation in Gaza (and it often happens that they use Palestinian cause for strikes). This could be the direction in which Israel should have start looking long ago.
Re:Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sourc... by borski on Thursday September 19, 2024 @03:15AM (#41589374)
Israel did not start this war with Hezbollah. It is not incumbent on Israel to begin diplomatic talks. Israel is at war.

As the attacker, it is incumbent upon Hezbollah to signal diplomacy.

By the same token, it is incumbent on Russia to signal that they would like to engage diplomatically, not Ukraine. It is entirely clear that Ukraine is willing to engage diplomatically, if and only if Russia retreats and surrenders, as they were the aggressor.

Anyway, I think we’ve both said our piece here, and I understand your position.