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Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by ViktorRay on Sunday September 01, 2024 @04:00PM (#41419863)
It’s interesting you mention

“Nobody is textbook anatomy”

I know you’re exaggerating for poetic effect but this might actually be true in some parts of the human anatomy.

For example the description of the anatomy of vessels and anastomoses around the knee…I have had a professor tell me that the standard anatomical descriptions for this might all essentially be fiction. Basically the variation in some of these vessels over there is so high that the standard anatomical textbook description might be wrong.

That being said maybe the professor was wrong. I don’t know. But it was an interesting thing to think about.

Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by devilbunny on Sunday September 01, 2024 @06:34PM (#41420965)
No, really: nobody has completely textbook anatomy.

Think of it like those blended-face photos. Anatomy books describe that.

Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by mrexroad on Sunday September 01, 2024 @07:35PM (#41421242)
I was being prepped for wrist/arm surgery years back and the anesthesiologist got a bit flummoxed and muttere, “huh, that’s strange… let’s get an ultrasound” while trying to administer a nerve block on my arm. I asked what and they ”oh, it’s nothing to worry about, but your nerve isn’t where it is supposed to be…”, and then knocked me out before I could ask anything else.
Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by devilbunny on Sunday September 01, 2024 @07:43PM (#41421282)
That’s why we use ultrasound on practically every block we do today.
Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by ProllyInfamous on Sunday September 01, 2024 @08:11PM (#41421397)
Would you consider investing in becoming an imaging technologist in today's US healthcare market?

IIRC, ultrasound is top of that payscale..?

Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by devilbunny on Sunday September 01, 2024 @11:33PM (#41422373)
I honestly don’t know anything about that market. We don’t use sonographers because it’s interventional; I need to be able to control my own view very tightly.
Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by citboin on Monday September 02, 2024 @09:05AM (#41425083)
Nuclear Medicine Technologists earn more.
Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by meroes on Monday September 02, 2024 @01:34AM (#41422871)
Is ultra sound that little monitor they/you look at while the needle thing is in your arm to apply the nerve block? That process a bit unnerving no pun intended. I thought maybe since my arm had been tweaked by being in a full arm cast for a month even with the screen they weren’t going to find it.
Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by devilbunny on Monday September 02, 2024 @09:42PM (#41430395)
Yes. You can see the needle, see the tissues. Nerves sometimes aren’t visible right where you want to block them, but if you can see them headed in the right direction and then see the structures they are supposed to be (and usually, though not always, are) near, you can make good guesses and get results.
Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by bookofjoe on Monday September 02, 2024 @10:23AM (#41425609)
For perspective, when I learned to do nerve blocks (UCLA Department of Anesthesiology, 1977-1980 residency), portable ultrasound for guidance was a pipe dream.

For the axillary approach to brachial plexus blocks, we tried to elicit paresthesias from actual needle impaction on nerves and then pulled back a tad and injected a bolus of anesthetic.

We did that repeatedly, aiming to deposit anesthetic near each branch of the plexus.

Failing that, hitting the brachial artery with the needle and then continuing to advance the needle until no blood could be aspirated, injecting half the intended volume of anesthetic (2% lidocaine with epinephrine 1:1000) behind the vessel, then withdrawing the needle until no blood could be aspirated and then depositing the remainder of the anesthetic on the front side of the artery was the technique of choice.

Diff'rent strokes.

Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by vinay_ys on Monday September 02, 2024 @10:52AM (#41425821)
Surprised to find a bunch of anesthesiologists hanging around here. How come?
Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by bookofjoe on Monday September 02, 2024 @10:57AM (#41425877)
HN is my favorite place on the internet. I only wish I'd discovered it before I stumbled on it in 2016.
Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by devilbunny on Monday September 02, 2024 @09:16PM (#41430256)
Last time I counted there were three or four of us, but bookofjoe is a prolific reader and poster courtesy of being retired.

We have a lot of down time during the day, just in very short increments. Thus the stereotype that we’re all crossword/Sudoku nerds. HN is something you can pick up and put down in a moment.

Also, I have always thought of the job as a sort of human engineering, or a big physiology lab. Programmers have REPL; we have vital sign monitors for instant feedback. Thankfully it is difficult to crash a human accidentally.

People think doctors bought computers early because they were rich. They could, but it’s worth remembering that if you were a science-and-math kid in the post-WW2 era, medicine and engineering would be the fields you would be pushed toward. That is not as prominent now as tech has started paying better and medicine less, but it’s still not terrible reasoning. I would have to screw up a lot to be unemployable, even if it did take me a lot of school to get to that point. Doctors bought computers because they looked fun.

Only one of my partners has an engineering degree (MechE). I majored in chemistry. Two pharmacists, one accountant. Don’t know about the rest.

Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by bookofjoe on Tuesday September 03, 2024 @10:21AM (#41435253)
"I have always thought of the job as a sort of human engineering, or a big physiology lab."

I like this. I used to tell med students doing a month-long rotation that the specialty could be described as a combination of applied physiology/applied chemistry/applied anatomy with the great thing being you get to find out if you were right in the moment/that day, rather than having to wait days/weeks/months/forever to learn if you had done the right things.

P.S. I majored in political science

P.P.S. ChatGPT-4o just told me that "The use of nerve stimulators for brachial plexus blocks became more widespread in the late 1970s and 1980s."

I never used a nerve stimulator — or US — for brachial plexus blocks during my career (I retired in 2015). I guess I was just so used to doing it the way I learned back in the Dark Ages that as long as I got good results, I kept on keeping on.

Also, if you're doing a locum in some backwoods hospital in a small town in Virginia, you're unlikely to find a working nerve stimulator, much less a portable ultrasound.

I suppose this is why they have a mandatory retirement age for airline pilots.

Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by devilbunny on Tuesday September 03, 2024 @01:42PM (#41437237)
Cool! Thanks for the perspective. They found a Vernitrol (basically copper kettle) at an older hospital I do a side gig at that was set up for cyclopropane and some other agent a few years ago; I pointed out that you could still do anesthesia with it today if you fixed a couple of broken pieces. Neat to look at even if it didn’t have the circular slide rule to determine through-kettle and bypass flows at each temperature.
Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by bookofjoe on Tuesday September 03, 2024 @07:09PM (#41440233)
I think you and I do/did side gigs at the same hospital aka Little Sisters of the Poor
Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by devilbunny on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @06:08PM (#41451384)
Haha! No, but let’s just say that that would be a very appropriate name for its current condition.

I might reach out to you with a few tidbits you might enjoy out of HN - while this nickname isn’t sterile, I don’t want to doxx myself too easily.

Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by devilbunny on Monday September 02, 2024 @09:06PM (#41430202)
Oh, sure. From U/S experience I would guess that transarterial method was probably the most likely to work. Never did one, but was taught the concept and it looks like it would work.

Did femorals and popliteals by stim, it was quicker than ultrasound. Now that we have ultrasound everywhere, there’s no reason not to use it.

Residency 06-09.

One facility I worked at had a family medicine guy who was in the National Guard who asked me about field treatment. I mentioned Valium rather than Versed for reducing dislocations and fractures, and said that he really should find someone to teach him interscalenes by stim, I would teach him popliteals. Just to get those ankle fractures and dislocated shoulders comfortable until they could be evacuated (this is training, not combat, so plenty of troops don’t get moved until next day at least). Unfortunately this was as U/S was really becoming standard of care so it would be hard to justify teaching stim for a brachial plexus block - but he can’t fit that u/s in a field kit.

Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by cosignal on Sunday September 01, 2024 @06:53PM (#41421071)
Some people wonder why the use of ‘AI’ in pathology is not more effective, and this is part of the reason.
Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by eagerpace on Sunday September 01, 2024 @08:14PM (#41421411)
It seems like exactly the kind of thing AI will be better at than humans. If just needs to be trained on the variations instead of the textbook.
Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by bitnasty on Sunday September 01, 2024 @09:04PM (#41421653)
My thought is the exact opposite. AI can handle predictable situations fine, but the 20% of situations which are unpredictable require a general intelligence that can understand context that current AI technology (or possibly any AI technology) just doesn’t possess. There will always be situations that training doesn’t cover.
Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by loa_in_ on Monday September 02, 2024 @05:23AM (#41423892)
The other side is that AI can learn every last bit of information from all CT scans, operating room video recordings (and more) in the world with no rest or sleep, and with 100% diligence
Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by miah_ on Monday September 02, 2024 @07:40AM (#41424560)
But our current "AI" isn't Intelligent and it doesn't learn.
Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by loa_in_ on Tuesday September 03, 2024 @04:38AM (#41432678)
It does learn and it's great at mimicking. Don't ask it to perform the operation, ask it to fill in the gaps.
Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by mejutoco on Monday September 02, 2024 @01:32PM (#41427271)
Sounds similar to symbolic reasoning (for example algebra) vs finding the most likely completion.
Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by rowanG077 on Sunday September 01, 2024 @09:00PM (#41421638)
Hmm that is the opposite what I would have expected. Because there is so much variation an AI that has trained on an insane breadth of data should easily be able to outcompete a human on specialized tasks.
Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by lanstin on Monday September 02, 2024 @02:22PM (#41427663)
Unless that training on exceptions isn't quite enough to convey the principles needed to reason about the domain.

I am sure for some problems it will amaze and for some it will not.

Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by Dalewyn on Sunday September 01, 2024 @09:07PM (#41421666)
"The average man doesn't exist."

-United States Air Force

Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by weregiraffe on Monday September 02, 2024 @05:27AM (#41423913)
The median man does.
Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by VMG on Monday September 02, 2024 @08:54AM (#41424991)
and he is quite strange
Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by robotresearcher on Monday September 02, 2024 @02:35PM (#41427765)
Only when there are an odd number of men. Roughly half the time the median man does not exist either.
Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by portn0y on Monday September 02, 2024 @01:23AM (#41422822)
Gradients, spectrums, distributions; oh my
Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by koliber on Monday September 02, 2024 @03:58AM (#41423479)
Gradients, spectrums and distributions describe the quantifiable diversity in humans. People have different heights, weights, eye colors, and other numerically measurable qualities. We’re exposed to this and it’s not surprising.

What this thread is talking about is things like extra fingers, missing or extra nerves and muscles, and varying structural differences.

I recently started learning a lot about the muscular and nervous system in the hip area. Even on Wikipedia you routinely read things like „this muscles is missing in x% of population”. It blew my mind that there is so much difference to our internal structure.

Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by lanstin on Monday September 02, 2024 @02:24PM (#41427678)
The genetic code is basically configuring a generic vertebrate body; the same sort of variation we see between vertebrate species we can also see as developmental variation in a species.
Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by burnte on Sunday September 01, 2024 @08:03PM (#41421369)
> I know you’re exaggerating for poetic effect but this might actually be true in some parts of the human anatomy.

I had an ingrown toenail fixed. There is a nerve that comes in and branches in two in the bug toe. In my toe it branches into three!

Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by ProllyInfamous on Sunday September 01, 2024 @08:13PM (#41421409)
Even identical males twins don't have the same penis structure/routing. Thanks for sharing your own personal example (I am the twin, in mine).

Another example is that of sciatia, which is much more prevalent when your sciatic nerve takes one particular path to get through the glutes. Other routed methods and sciatia is much less likely to be debilitating.

Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by waste_monk on Monday September 02, 2024 @03:48AM (#41423447)
>Even identical males twins don't have the same penis structure/routing. Thanks for sharing your own personal example (I am the twin, in mine).

A form of biometric authentication, perhaps? Assume one has a spare CT scanner or some such thing, and doesn't mind discriminating against roughly half of the population.

Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by danbruc on Monday September 02, 2024 @04:41AM (#41423675)
The Leftovers [1], season 3 episode 7.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Leftovers_(TV_series)

Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by danbruc on Monday September 02, 2024 @08:10AM (#41424773)
Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by magicalhippo on Monday September 02, 2024 @03:52AM (#41423463)
> Even identical males twins don't have the same penis structure/routing.

So that's the reason behind the dick pics. I thought it was just to show off, but it's for identification. Makes total sense now.

Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by taylorius on Monday September 02, 2024 @04:02AM (#41423497)
It was a close run thing between that and retina scans for the top secret lab's security.
Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by xattt on Monday September 02, 2024 @07:21AM (#41424435)
“Please insert identification token”
Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by literalAardvark on Monday September 02, 2024 @10:28AM (#41425640)
ValueError: Not enough values to unpack
Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by latentsea on Monday September 02, 2024 @10:26PM (#41430683)
You've got to unzip it.
Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by dotancohen on Monday September 02, 2024 @04:45AM (#41423699)

  > Even identical males twins don't have the same penis structure/routing. Thanks for sharing your own personal example (I am the twin, in mine).
Did you and your twin, um, compare penis structure/routing?
Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by phkahler on Monday September 02, 2024 @12:04PM (#41426575)
I know someone where the main artery into one kidney branches in two. Seems like a possible evolutionary step to bifurcation into more smaller kidneys. ;-)
Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by onlypassingthru on Monday September 02, 2024 @01:01PM (#41427026)
Anecdata: A family member had one of those third smaller kidneys.
Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by lanstin on Monday September 02, 2024 @02:19PM (#41427630)
I have that. One normal kidney on one side and two touching but distinct maybe 75% sized kidneys on the other.
Re:Our Longest Nerve Orchestrates the Mind-Body Connection by fasa99 on Monday September 02, 2024 @04:17PM (#41428471)
there are many interesting anatomic variants one interesting thing is the muscles that move our "grasp" - to cause our fingers to close or open. One muscle, with a "lead" per each finger. anatomic variant is sometimes these include the pinky, sometimes they dont. The pinky has its own set of muscles in either case. If you try moving your fingers you can see there's a bit more traction with the pinky isolation versus other fingers and thats why