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Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by wigster on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @04:32AM (#40913744)
if helium is better, why not use a vacuum?
Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by akira2501 on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @04:49AM (#40913842)
A gas provides a "bearing" for the heads to ride on as the disk spins below it.
Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by rob74 on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @04:58AM (#40913905)
Right you are, forgot about that completely! IIRC this is important to prevent a headcrash if the drive is jolted while in operation (of course within certain limits).
Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by Brian_K_White on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @07:04PM (#40922198)
It's required to work at all, not just as some kind of guard rail. It's like the oil in a normal bearing, the oil isn't just to prevent a crankshaft crash in case the car is jolted while in operation, the oil is a part of the way the thing functions at all in the first place.
Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by ahartmetz on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @06:18AM (#40914378)
Maybe magnetism could work. HDD platters take very strong fields to change magnetization these days, so erasing the data with the positioning magnet(s) seems avoidable.
Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by amelius on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @07:13AM (#40914716)
So write too many zeros to your drive, the disk becomes demagnetized, and the head will crash?
Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by Faaak on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @07:29AM (#40914823)
With another encoding like Manchester, it wouldn't;-)
Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by frud on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @04:31PM (#40920762)
The raw words written to the drive are actually re-encoded into slightly larger codewords with nice properties like not having too many zero or one bits in a row, and error detection/correction.

Plus I think that the 0/1 bits are not encoded as "no magnetism"/"some magnetism", but instead as "north magnetism"/"south magnetism" since magnetic fields have a direction.

And I don't think the magnetic fields on the platters have any appreciable effect on the head besides the electromagnetic effects at the sensor.

Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by Cerium on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @11:24PM (#40923399)
Essentially the same problem as with fiber optics. The data can't be recovered unless there are frequent bit transitions. In that case the data is transformed to ensure illegal patterns cannot occur.
Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by perihelions on Wednesday July 10, 2024 @12:03PM (#40928367)
Also, you could imagine a magnetic bearing whose field strength rapidly diminishes as you move away from it, due to cancellation, like a Halbach array [0]. I wonder if there's a simple geometric configuration for a bearing that has this property, as well as the critical property of passively stable levitation, maybe based on diamagnetic or superconducting materials [1].

edit: Maybe something in this direction? [2]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halbach_array

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_bearing

[2] https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20070006849/downloads/20... ("Development and Testing of a Radial Halbach Magnetic Bearing")

Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by tedsanders on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @04:36AM (#40913773)
A startup called L2 drive is apparently working on this: https://l2drive.com/vacuum-hdds-the-next-logical-step-after-...

But their website looks pretty stale, and I don’t see evidence of traction from brief Googling.

Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by rasz on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @04:53AM (#40913869)
Heads ride on cushion of gas, would instantly friction weld into platters in vacuum.
Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by hughesjj on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @09:47AM (#40916102)
Friction or cold/vacuum welding at that point?
Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by Panzer04 on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @04:43AM (#40913807)
Is heat a concern in HDDs? Vacuum would probably make it extremely difficult to cool if it's necessary.
Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by dist-epoch on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @05:50AM (#40914188)
Heat can still circulate through the metal parts. Which is a better heat transfer medium than air anyway.
Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by jfjdkfnjrhr on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @05:04AM (#40913941)
No friction ... No heat
Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by toenail on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @05:26AM (#40914055)
Sounds like an SSD..
Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by piva00 on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @06:09AM (#40914317)
SSDs can get pretty hot though.
Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by SirMaster on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @04:32PM (#40920763)
SSDs have lots of moving parts and friction, all the electrons are zipping around the circuits with friction. This creates heat :)
Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by askvictor on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @04:35AM (#40913772)
Maybe structural issues in trying to stop the case from imploding?
Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by rwmj on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @04:40AM (#40913792)
Hydrogen would also be .. interesting ...
Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by ahartmetz on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @06:14AM (#40914353)
Hydrogen even diffuses through (and into) metal - seems not doable, not cheaply and without maintenance at least.
Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by credit_guy on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @09:18AM (#40915780)
Helium atoms are actually smaller than hydrogen atoms, and much smaller than hydrogen mollecules.
Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by adrian_b on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @09:51AM (#40916154)
While that is true, there are metals through which hydrogen can diffuse faster than helium, because the hydrogen molecules dissociate and ionize when entering the metal and the hydrogen ions diffuse through the metal individually.
Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by dreamcompiler on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @05:53AM (#40914205)
Wouldn't be a fire risk because there's no oxygen available. But hydrogen is chemically reactive and over time it could corrode or weaken the materials inside the HDD.
Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by banish-m4 on Wednesday July 10, 2024 @04:13AM (#40924754)
That's not the main problem. The main problem is hydrogen is fucking painful to contain.
Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by dreamcompiler on Wednesday July 10, 2024 @08:22AM (#40926100)
Not as painful as helium. Bigger atom but it leaks more.
Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by banish-m4 on Wednesday July 10, 2024 @06:27PM (#40932120)
Ah, truth. Brain fart.

ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Section V

Helium leak detection sensitivity is 3 orders of magnitude higher.

Memory is fallible, but the code doesn't lie.

Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by flir on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @04:51AM (#40913855)
Oh, the huge HDD.
Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by aaron695 on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @07:02AM (#40914634)
> Hydrogen would also be .. interesting ...

Why?

It's used in power station generators. Why would a hard disk be interesting?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen-cooled_turbo_generato...

Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by dtx1 on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @07:26AM (#40914804)
Cause exploding hard drives are metal AF
Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by mitthrowaway2 on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @12:34PM (#40918036)
It won't explode until it's mixed with oxygen.
Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @01:09PM (#40918397)
Hold my beer.
Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by HankB99 on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @02:00PM (#40919028)
The small amount contained in the HDD would a minimal risk.

Larger amounts handled in the manufacturing process, OTOH...

I'm curious how the shaft seals for generators manage to seal the hydrogen. Perhaps the hydrogen is contained within the the generator and not exposed to the seals, though I thought one of the reasons for its use (along with cooling) was reduced windage losses.

Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by exe34 on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @04:34AM (#40913768)
vacuums tend to collapse on themselves, I think it might be more costly in structural elements to prevent that?
Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by ItsBob on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @07:24AM (#40914795)
What about a partial vacuum?

Perhaps there is a hapy medium between air resistance and cushioning? Reducing the air by an amount might help.

Although, I'd be surprised if they hadn't thought of this already :)

Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by fsckboy on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @04:28PM (#40920730)
a partial vacuum of only helium, tightly sealed to keep in the helium. The tight seals will work to make sure that when there is leakage, only helium leaks in. and if there is no helium component to the air outside, you'll just get helium leaking out thus improving your vacuum.
Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by robocat on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @05:44AM (#40914156)
It is better to think of a vacuum within air to be similar to a bubble underwater.

Air is like water in other ways too. We slightly "float" in air by the weight of air we displace. e.g. 80kg person is approximately 80 litres (density of a body is 1.010 kg/litre). Weight of displaced air is approx 0.1 gram (1.2929 gram/litre). So the floating effect of air reduces your weight (not mass) by about 0.1%.

Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by Someone on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @06:42AM (#40914516)
> It is better to think of a vacuum within air to be similar to a bubble underwater.

I don’t think it is vey similar. That bubble pushes against the water to maintain itself; it manages to do that only because its “push” increases the higher its pressure and it is more compressible than water.

The vacuum, on the other hand, is compressible (if you want to call that so), but its “push” remains zero if you do, so it needs help to push against the air to maintain itself.

That’s why the post your replied to said “vacuums tend to collapse on themselves, I think it might be more costly in structural elements to prevent that?”

Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by dist-epoch on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @05:52AM (#40914200)
Thermoses have vacuum in the walls, and they are very thin, much thinner than a hard-drive case.
Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by exe34 on Wednesday July 10, 2024 @04:43AM (#40924918)
I think they do get designed specially for resisting the vacuum collapsing the walls, but you're right, it can probably be done!
Re:The Race to Seal Helium HDDs by j16sdiz on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @01:04PM (#40918348)
Metal sticks to each other in vacuum

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_welding