The woman who ran PR for Chicago Tribune did the same thing with her husband. She now has a small farm in Michigan. She runs a PR agency from the farm.

I personally couldn’t do it… I prefer loud noises and bright lights but I lived in Rincon Hill and Times Square at various times…

> I personally couldn’t do it… I prefer loud noises and bright lights

How old are you?

You don’t have to answer, but I’m guessing you’re probably not past 45.

At some point, you start to prefer quiet.

I haven’t lived in a really large city, but have been around noise enough that I’m hoping our next move will distance us from neighbors and highway noise.

And yes, maybe we’ll have a farm animal or two.

I grew up all my life in a major city. The quiet and tranquility of a small town freak me out. For somebody who’s never lived in a city, you’re making quite a few assumptions.

As somebody who lives in a multi-million city, every second person I talk to wants to move to the country, and it definitely much stronger tendency after around 30-35+.

It doesn't matter if the parent's assumptions are "quite a few" or don't match you, what matters is if they match a big segment of the population to be statistically useful. There are always outliers who love to grow old in a big city and have their ashes scaterred in the middle of Manhattan.

The only set we should really be listening to are people who both:

   - Lived in a big city
   - Lived in a rural community

Otherwise, everyone always thinks the grass is greener, absent experience with the alternative.

Or as I heard it quipped -- you don't love something for it's best bits; you love it because you can tolerate its worst bits.

>Otherwise, everyone always thinks the grass is greener, absent experience with the alternative

For our purposes (which in this subthread is determining whether grandparents idea that "45+ prefer more quiet and wish to move to the country" is valid), this distinction doesn't matter - since this is not about whether that group is justified in preferring the country, but whether they prefer it or not.

I care about maximizing people's happiness function.

Whether there are a large number of people who believe in something that's incorrect is immaterial, as is over-counting kvetching without any intent to follow through.

>I care about maximizing people's happiness function.

Good for you. Not on my subthread though :)

Did you actually say "my subthread"?

Say it, no, but I did actually typed it.

Out of curiosity, how many times a day on average do you find yourself starting a sentence with "Well, actually..."?

I don't know, how many times a day do you find yourself being rude?

Yeah, that's mostly me. I've lived in Massachusetts at multiple locations between Boston and Gardner. I'm now living at the edge of one of the mill cities. It is not far enough from traffic noise, but it is much better than any other place I've lived other than Massachusetts rural.

I've also lived from the deeply blue-collar (father's small business moving machinery) to the tech world. I find myself marketing my consulting business to small to medium-sized blue-collar/manufacturing businesses. Even though their Trumpist attitudes irritate me, I understand their world better than I do that of urban-centric, and their political views do not stop me from taking their money. It makes it easier for me to charge them the rates that I do.

I think the quip is a good one. However, I feel it could be better phrased as, "You need to seek out the best bits to remind you why you tolerate the worst bits."

When I'm having a bad day, and I wonder why I'm putting up the crap in my life, I walk into my yard, look at my garden with cucumbers, beans, cauliflower, and something like 20 tomato plants next to raspberries, blueberries, sour cherry tree, and Apple tree. And if it's a really really bad day, I will go and settle into the hammock and stare at the sky.

When I can finally feel gratitude for the life I have, then I go back and deal with the crap that lets me afford the life I have.

100%

On one of my worst days of dealing with needlessly pedantic and blocking colleagues at a previous job, I sat out in the rain under an umbrella and watched ducks enjoy a pond.

Came back in, my coworker asked me if I was okay, and I just told him "Ducks don't mind when it rains."

It's become my mantra for rough days.

There is so much to be said for nature, and I feel like you can get 80% of the nature benefit by investing 20% time into it.

Why build a yurt, when you can get most of the benefit from a hammock? Why farm commercially, when you can get most of the benefit from a hobby farm?

I think we could be good neighbors.

For the purposes of input on the question of living in a big city vs a rural community, yes, but don't forget, there is also the 3rd option of living in suburbia. I hear it's quite popular in America.

"The only set we should really be listening to are people who both ..."

I think a dial is preferable to either of the (urban, rural) choices.

I love dense, urban places and I also love quiet, secluded rural places.

In my mind, the ideal living situation allows one to quickly toggle between the two.

This is possible in the Bay Area and is the reason I moved here 15 years ago.

Well, that's me: my wife and I left Seattle a few years ago, moved to a very small town in a very rural area, spent about a year and a half there, then gave it up and came back. We are much happier in the city; country life was lonely and boring.

My wife still fantasizes about retiring to a cabin in the woods with a garden and maybe a little orchard, but I'm no longer sure I could actually cope with that lifestyle.

I've lived (not just visited, but spent at least a year) in places as small as Nome, Alaska and as large as Atlanta, SF, Dallas, and Las Vegas. I just moved from rural MA to rural NY (from one small college town to another).

Growing up I yearned with a passion to live in a big city, but having lived a quite a few, I'm much less enamored with city life, at least in the US. Traffic sucks and often where you want to go is spread out geographically, so you're forced to deal with traffic. I also hate that there is so little greenery, except in a handful of places that are super expensive to afford to live near.

That said, cities do offer quite a few positives. Way more things to do and more people to meet.

I think many European cities seem better designed for foot traffic and bikes, with more nature interspersed, than US cities. Having only visited Europe, I feel like I'd much prefer to live in a European style city than many of the major US cities. Then again, since I didn't live in Europe it could be that many of the places I want to go to on a regular basis (like a climbing gym) are in out of the way places. Obviously not all European cities are the ideal (really hated the hustle and bustle in Rome for example), but many more cities I've visited there seem like nice places to live (I even fantasized about moving to Copenhagen for a while).

> every second person I talk to wants to move to the country

Doesn't that possibly reflect your social circle more than a statement about the public at large?

Abstractly yes, but practically not since it's diverse enough

Just to give another data point, I'm settled, have two kids, and almost never hear anybody say that.

But I'll confess, I find people who talk like that a little obnoxious and I'll admit I may self select and avoid those people.

>At some point, you start to prefer quiet.

> I haven’t lived in a really large city, but have been around noise enough that I’m hoping our next move will distance us from neighbors and highway noise.

I feel this, and I'm mid 40s. I keep my eyes open for places to live which are somehow both remote and near decent healthcare options. I don't need the healthcare options now, but I am aware that I am only going to get older and that's something that I'd want.

I do my best to keep my yard full of life and tend to my plants and my gardens, but there's always the noise from the highway a mile or so away. It's less annoying when it's hot out, but the drone bothers me in the winter months.

Same here. I lived in some of the world's largest cities most of my life, and loved the "big city" atmosphere. But in my late 40s it changed and started to crave being out in the countryside, away from people, noise, etc. I now live on the outskirts of a medium size city (in 5 minutes I'm out among orchards and vineyards), but would prefer to be even further out, have an orchard or small farm (though I have no illusions that I could make a living from that)

One uncounted point is frequency of novelty.

Generalizing, I'd say younger people (18-35) are more default-comfortable in novel situations. As we age, people's tolerance for that seems to decrease.

And, on the whole, I'd say that rural life provides less novelty than city life. Or at least novelty within tighter bounds.

I still crave novelty, in that I'm always wanting to discover new things, go new places. But I don't feel the need to be so "busy" as is common in a big city.

Some people do still like city life in their 40s.

Some people do find a more rural life unappealing.

It's always interesting to hear from people who moved to Michigan because the better part of my adult life has been devoted to getting out of Michigan. It sounds like you have a peaceful life though

I grew up here and left as soon as I turned 18! After living all over the US and trying out different cities and locales returning to Michigan made the most sense. Buying a home in the SFBay area isn't feasible unless you're willing to work multiple jobs or sell your soul to FAANG.

Want a house? Get ready to replace: The foundation, the roof, the sewer lateral, oh and the addition wasn't done with a permit so its not to code at all. All for the low low price of $500k! On a lovely 1/4th acre plot, you'll be hearing your neighbor while they fart in the bathroom. What, you only got $500k? Don't worry, this other person here has $550k and they don't have a problem with the house need to be rebuilt!

Oh I'm looking at $500k houses? I should be looking at 1.1mil houses to not deal with all those problems? Now I've got 1.1mil mortgage for 30 years. I don't want to work into my 70's for a house.

Compared to... come to Michigan, you can get 5 acres for less than $300k and your house is functional, maybe it needs a new roof within 5 years. My mortgage is 15 years and will be paid off before that.

I think "competition" is the big thing that drove me back home. I was tired of competing with my neighbors (people who live in the same city) for _everything_. I don't mind people, I loved meeting people in every city I lived. I just felt like I had to fight for every "inch" in most "big cities" (but especially SFBay area).

It's very peaceful here. I love it. Maybe I'll go to the big lake (Michigan) later and swim.

Michigan's housing prices vary pretty dramatically and we don't have a terribly low cost of living in parts -- especially real-estate. It's no SFBay, but it's rapidly getting worse.

You mentioned the 300,000 on 5 acres, and that's definitely possible, but you're not getting that in the desirable parts of Macomb or Oakland County[0], nor anywhere in Wayne outside of Detroit/Detroit-ish areas.

I watched a house on a busy city road (one where "pulling out of the driveway means an immediate traffic backup to the light" between 7-9 and 4-6 every day) which was 2,200 sq ft, 4 BR 2.0 BA, though it was new construction (relatively modern/upgraded interior) go for $550,000 in 2022 after multiple bids. The home I own (1800/3BR/1.5BA) which I purchased for $175,000 in 2001 and would have lost money had I sold it between 2007~2018, is worth about $330,000. This is partly due to the value increasing due to local changes and "what's happening everywhere in the country" housing prices-wise. I know folks who moved to Plymouth to a home with similar specs but paid a quarter million in 2017.

Cool. And because I didn't re-finance, I don't have a mortgage any longer. Except I want to upgrade. And had I done that in 2008, I could have afforded it. Now that upgrade is twice as much but my salary has not followed suit. My desire to upgrade went to near zero, already, once I paid it off. But now I couldn't even afford to if I wanted to. I figure I'll downgrade and move near the kids when they're older and take home some cash in the process.

One thing I love about where I live in Michigan, though ... it's rare that a house doesn't have a basement. Even in places you wouldn't expect -- our next-door neighbor on Lake Huron had a full basement with 12ft ceilings (and a hell of a system to keep it bone dry). And newer homes tend to have excellent ones you can make useful -- if not always up-to-code -- living/lab spaces out of. SFBay hacks in their garage. We hack in our basements.

[0] When people say they "Live in Detroit" that's probably where they live. Just like the Detroit Zoo.

Agreed that competition is one of my major annoyances with big cities.

Once it gets big enough that "good" restaurants require a reservation any day of the week, and those reservations are difficult to get, I'm moving somewhere else.

Why work to fight to win... what you can just enjoy somewhere else?

To be a total snob about it, it's because the "what" is better in some places. If the best restaurant in town is a Cheesecake Factory or Olive Garden, and there are no reservations; hey, you do you.

Fair!

But there's a pretty big swath of cities between {Cheesecake Factory} and {Manhattan}.

Yeah, Manhattan sounds crazy. I was reading this whole article about this platform for NYC restaurant reservations, where people who book reservations at a restaurant can turn around and sell those reservations on the platform.

I've lived here since I was born and I'd say I feel that way a lot of the time. There's a lot of downside: tight ties to autos (where I live) mean that a lot of employers -- even if "technically" they aren't automotive focused -- tend to have so many customers in that industry that "when something goes wrong at GM, Ford or whatever Chrysler is called, everyone around here gets it."

Best I've been able to do is work for employers out of state/country but I'm currently employed locally at a remote-only shop.

The weather. I get it. Everyone uses the same "5 minutes and it'll change" joke, but we're unique here. I thought I read somewhere that we see fewer cloudless days than the Pacific Northwest, but I can't find a reference so I suspect that's false, but we spend, basically, December to April with few sunny days. We live in a place of extremes, as well. Ten below (Fahrenheit) in the coldest winter days, 99 degrees a couple of days ago. Had one day in July when I was in High School where it was 85 degrees in the morning and in about a 15-minute period of time dropped to 45 due to a Derecho[0] rolling through (which almost picked me up off the ground due to 75 MPH winds and sent a large Oak Tree through our master bedroom).

We don't get Spring or Autumn, we get Winter, Summer, and a period of time where the two are at war and it may be Winter or Summer depending on what day/hour it is. A decade ago, I was in the ER on the first week of March. The hospital couldn't "turn on the Air Conditioning" at will, they had to switch over seasonally, so when we had an unexpected 85 degree day, that meant it was about 85 degrees in the ER. That was fun.

It is a beautiful place if you get out of the more populated parts, but I work here and that's where I live. Still, nice that it's an hour drive to get to something that qualifies as "Up North[1]"

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derecho

[1] A phrase that has little to do with direction around here ... mostly just means "resort-ish small town, a lot of which survives due to summer 'Cabin Up North' folks." Ours is in Port Sanilac. But, really, Lake Orion and Walled Lake used to be "Up North" communities :)

I grew up in Ohio, and I did grow up on a farm for the first part of my life, and I worked like hell to get out of there and I'd never go back, but somehow a small farm in Michigan has become an idea in my brain, too.

Everyone else's grass is always greener it seems.

Not in west Texas I'll tell you that!

My cousin desperately wants to move from Canada to West Texas! The other cous lives in Chile, I live in the UK, my aunt and uncle live in France. There's no pleasing some folks! ;- )

Funny comment about it being dark in Michigan. My feeling here in the summer is like, will the sun ever set (somewhat light out until almost 10pm depending on location)? I know what you mean, of course.

Ya, the sun is out quite late right now =) My chickens don't want to go to bed! But then the sun goes down, and you can see _EVERY_ star in the sky. When I walk my trashcan out to the street, its pitch black. I LOVE it.

Who'd a thunk there'd be so many Michiganders on Hacker News?

I'm with ya, I tend to rise with the sun and 5:00 AM gets very old. Morning's like "Can I just sneak by you? Ope[0], sorry 'bout that, didn't mean to wake you up"

[0] I couldn't resist.

Reversely it's gonna get dark at 4pm in winter.

It's the same in Poland, in this period of the year the sunset is at 10 pm and dusk at 11.

I grew up in Michigan. I live in Berlin now, and it’s light to 11:30pm and I can read on my balcony in natural light at 4:30am.

Well, seeing that most of Germany is further North than Michigan (southernmost latitute of Germany ~47°, northernmost latitude of Michigan ~48°, that sounds correct.

If you think about how most of Europe is at the same latitude as Canada, you really start to appreciate how important the Gulf Stream is for our climate...

NBA... Toronto Raptors had/have a big campaign around "We The North".

Except whenever they came to Portland to play the Trailblazers, the arena commentators would mock it with signs like "We The North-er" etc. Portland is just over 2 degrees further north than Toronto.

I wanna be you! problem is probably 15 years or more until it's feasible to me due to current salary, savings and country.

Never give up - all three of salary, savings, and country can change dramatically for the better.

Start with country. The best tool against inequality is a suitcase.

Agreed - the day I emigrated from the third world to Canada was the day my life hit the elbow of exponential growth.

Michigan might be cool in summer, what about winters? I need find a place for summer as I'm getting older and texas is just darn hot for 4 months in summer.

Michigan is not particularly cool in summer.

Right, it gets humid, but averages low ~80's. I'd honestly say its low ~70's, but this summer has been hot. I remember times when I was a child where it would still be snowing in May. Spring is also short, winter starts in October. I don't remember ever going out for Halloween without wearing a jacket, or where there wasn't cold rain or snow.

Michigan summers are much much milder (and shorter) than Texas summers (I lived in Houston for a few years).

> Michigan might be cool in summer, what about winters?

Michigan is also cool in the winter