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Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by azinman2 on Saturday June 01, 2024 @01:21AM (#40543102)
The entire energy model of CA needs to be rethought. From CPUC just doing what the companies want, to monopolies that are on the stock market that increase prices while also making huge profits… it is not serving the people.
Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by philjohn on Saturday June 01, 2024 @04:05AM (#40543796)
It's a difficult one.

The old net metering model where the utility serves as a battery was never going to be sustainable as distributed renewables grew in popularity. Home batteries are definitely the way forward, but NEM 3.0 is an abomination.

Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by Beldin on Saturday June 01, 2024 @05:56AM (#40544320)
Home batteries are a terrible idea. As a municipality -- or a neighbour -- you don't want 30 houses with 35 different batteries, installed by some nephew who's handy with DIY-stuff.

To just timeshift from daylight to evening/night/morning, you'd need batteries in the 25-35kWh range, 40-50kWh if airco on in the night, another 80kWh if you're driving electric and typically away from home during the day, charge at night. That is a lot of energy to pack, even at the low end. Imagine if everyone finds the cheapest set on AliExpress and DIYs it themselves, and then looks for a new model once current installation no longer matches their needs (capacity loss or use increase)... this must be a fire brigade worst nightmare.

Due to generation being more localised, we also need some form of much more local redistribution and/or storage. But not the nightmare that is one or more poorly installed and poorly maintained batteries of dubious origin per house.

Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by Moto7451 on Saturday June 01, 2024 @07:15AM (#40544701)
There are a couple points to consider and a couple that refute some of your concerns.

First, you don’t need a full off grid battery setup to benefit. With time of use rates a battery that covers peak usage and even recharges under low time of use rates is a big benefit over its lifetime.

On safety, to sell back to the grid you need an interconnect agreement and inspection of your system. California utilities can install meters that can apparently detect secondary sources of back feeding the grid. Lastly if you try to DIY a correct setup you’ll have to buy UL1741 spec equipment for managing back feeding and equipment with other safety standards relevant to your use. Often this is not a code requirement but in the interconnect agreement and utilities have enforcement powers.

For off grid solar it’s a different story but the NEC always applies. If someone wants to do a comically bad job at their electric work they’re probably going to burn down their house anyway.

In my current home I’ve recently finished removing and replacing all the electric work accomplished by a previous owner’s “contractors.” Nothing like having electrical work run through low voltage grade audio visual wall plates and connectors for zero fire protection IN AN AIR PLENUM THAT GOES FROM MY BASEMENT TO MY SECOND FLOOR. That way if something does catch on fire it didn’t have all those pesky layers of protection between the floors of the house. Literally $30 in parts later and shorting wires get two hours to melt and trip a breaker.

Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by Panzer04 on Saturday June 01, 2024 @07:05AM (#40544642)
Beyond fire risks or whatever, I actually don't see a problem with different battery models etc. The interface to the grid isnt exactly complicated, and decentralised storage seems like it would actually be quite robust and useful.

In a legal sense, most jurisdictions require some form of certification for such systems anyway, and the true diy versions are never going to be very common regardless.

Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by adgjlsfhk1 on Saturday June 01, 2024 @06:38AM (#40544495)
if you have excess solar, you can just run ac during the day. your house is a giant thermal battery.

Also 80 kwh is way too much for a car. that's enough to fill your entire battery. an average day of driving is only ~5-10 kwh

Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by currents on Saturday June 01, 2024 @11:05AM (#40546334)
The energy flowing through the batteries is the same despite the different battery brands and inverters. There's now APIs like Enode and others that have open standards for connecting dozens of EVs, batteries, HVAC equipment to react to grid events. Hopefully not too many DIYers out there but we're starting to see new models emerge where aggregators like Tesla, Sunrun, Currents, etc. (still needing PTO) can join the grid thanks to the APIs
Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by m463 on Saturday June 01, 2024 @01:29AM (#40543135)
Most companies give you a discount if you use more of their product. California energy works on a scarcity mindset with punitive punishments and now extra charges based on income. sigh.

and the CPUC is solely in the hands of PG&E.

As a customer it's sort of like wargames - the only winning move is not to play.

Unless you live in say, santa clara or palo alto, where they have sane energy companies with reasonable prices (like the outside of california)

Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by drno123 on Saturday June 01, 2024 @01:45AM (#40543204)
“Extra charges based on income” - does this mean that if you earn more, you pay more for electricity?
Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by m463 on Saturday June 01, 2024 @01:59AM (#40543252)
Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by leereeves on Saturday June 01, 2024 @02:35AM (#40543412)
So you're now required to share your tax documents with the local utility company, and they will charge you a monthly fee just for earning more money?
Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by jerlam on Saturday June 01, 2024 @02:49AM (#40543475)
No, the plan was changed to have a fixed monthly fee in addition to the cost per kWh for all, but lower income households will have a lower fixed monthly fee.
Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by alwa on Saturday June 01, 2024 @04:03AM (#40543787)
How do they distinguish those lower-income households without referring to tax documents?
Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by dataflow on Saturday June 01, 2024 @04:45AM (#40543998)
I have no idea about this particular program, but similar programs already exist for other utilities, you can look at how they do it (open the "What information do I need to provide..." section): https://www.att.com/internet/access/
Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by rnrn on Saturday June 01, 2024 @08:40AM (#40545250)
Previous proposals would have required everyone to provide income data to their utility which the utility would verify “somehow” (never fully articulated AFAIK)

The latest proposal (which has been accepted by the CPUC) has fixed charges applied for everyone (much lower than previously proposed fixed charges) with discounts available based on existing low-income programs ( https://www.pge.com/en/account/billing-and-assistance/financ... )

So yes in order to get the discount low-income customers need to declare income and may need to verify that income with tax documents (depending on how much fraud these program plan to tolerate) but other customers do not need to provide income information.

Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by twiceaday on Saturday June 01, 2024 @01:59AM (#40543255)
Yes. But put differently "if you earn less you pay less." It depends one what you call the "normal" price.
Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by kjkjadksj on Saturday June 01, 2024 @01:44AM (#40543200)
A lot of cities in california have their own public water and power company. LADWP is probably the largest by far.
Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by grecy on Saturday June 01, 2024 @02:22AM (#40543341)
> the only winning move is not to play.

And with so much sun, that is a very viable option. A roof covered in solar and some batteries and you'll never deal with this nonsense ever again.

Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by dmitrygr on Saturday June 01, 2024 @03:35AM (#40543685)
It is illegal in California to disconnect a residential house from the grid.

It’s ca. They wouldn’t make it THAT easy to opt out of their insanity.

Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by orhmeh09 on Saturday June 01, 2024 @03:39AM (#40543700)
Source?
Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by alwa on Saturday June 01, 2024 @04:27AM (#40543910)
Lawyers argued that Title 24 required that residential buildings be interconnected with the grid [0] [1], but 2022 updates to the code seem to have clarified that standalone solar PV systems with storage are OK (though they should still be meet the same standards as grid-connected systems would) [2]

In any case the small number of people who can afford to do so and want to do so seem to be doing so [3]

[0] https://www.cailaw.org/media/files/IEL/Publications/2016/gri...

[1] https://klinedinstlaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/how-tit...

[2] https://www.energy.ca.gov/programs-and-topics/programs/build...

[3] https://www.reddit.com/r/solar/comments/168mlxw/possiblelega...

Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by reacharavindh on Saturday June 01, 2024 @04:54AM (#40544039)
Are there fixed costs to having a connection? As in can one have a connection to the grid as a backup pay negligible amounts every month since they don’t use it?
Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by koolba on Saturday June 01, 2024 @10:59AM (#40546263)
They added a new fixed fee to cover this exact situation. Even if you do not use any power you’d be billed that fixed fee every month.
Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by currents on Saturday June 01, 2024 @11:01AM (#40546286)
Anyone living in CA want to check their bill? I think there's a fixed fee for grid connection similar to nat gas. Curious what this is
Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by ChoGGi on Saturday June 01, 2024 @09:08AM (#40545440)
If you stop payments, do they turn off their service?
Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by grecy on Saturday June 01, 2024 @02:00PM (#40547795)
> It is illegal in California to disconnect a residential house from the grid.

Huh? Are you saying I'm forced into a contract with a private company with a monthly fee?

... what happens if I simply have no money, and get the service terminated due to lack of payment?

Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by dmitrygr on Sunday June 02, 2024 @12:40PM (#40555421)
Yes
Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by ZeroGravitas on Saturday June 01, 2024 @04:40AM (#40543971)
Progressive taxation to support a basic shared infrastructure with strong network effects is entirely sensible.

Actual criticism of real problems in California (which seems to be doing better than most states in most ways, but isn't perfect) gets buried under tribal political nonsense, where everything is an outrage.

Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by roenxi on Saturday June 01, 2024 @06:41AM (#40544514)
> Progressive taxation to support a basic shared infrastructure with strong network effects is entirely sensible.

It isn't crazy, but it is a bad idea. There should be one debate where we work out how much support successful people are expected to provide for their less successful peers, and one transfer payment to cover it. Then everyone pays for things as equals.

Setting up multiple parallel societies where everyone has a different experience and financial incentives is wasteful. It ends up in situations where the electricity provider needs to consult with someone's accountant to work out what to charge customers. That is kinda crazy. A customer's tax position has nothing to do with the services they are provided and linking them is going to have weird second order effects.

It is the same lunacy as linking paying for medical services and employment together and we have all seen how that worked out for the US. Linking parts of the system together at random is not the path to a high-functioning administrative state.

Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by sokoloff on Saturday June 01, 2024 @07:16AM (#40544715)
> linking paying for medical services and employment together

which arose out of government-imposed price controls on labor in the first place...

Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by nrook on Saturday June 01, 2024 @10:48AM (#40546172)
When you see really goofy progressive taxes, if you look behind them, you'll usually see a strong legal or political barrier behind more sensible ones. This is why you are always hearing about ridiculous Amazon taxes coming out of the state of Washington; the place has no income tax, and progressive income taxes have been held to be unconstitutional there. So they have to get creative if they want a progressive tax.

Of course, the barrier in California is the infamous Proposition 13. You're right that charging people different rates for energy based on their income is silly; if they want to let the poor off the hook they should just tax them less, or even give them money. But the state's lawmakers are operating in a constrained environment.

(It's also the case that subsidies and means-tested benefits are trendy in Democratic policy-making circles, despite being dumb and inefficient compared to simpler and less directed benefits.)

Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by rnrn on Saturday June 01, 2024 @07:45AM (#40544913)
1. CA already has progressive taxation.

2. The “income-graduated fixed charge” is not taxation - it is paid to a corporation, not a government entity.

Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by Aunche on Saturday June 01, 2024 @10:48AM (#40546174)
The most successful social democracies actually have significantly flatter taxes than the US. IMO, overly progressive taxes are the reason why nobody gives a shit that the government is so inefficient at spending money. Those who benefit the most from government services aren't paying for the waste, and the rich either are privileged enough not to care or become overly antagonist towards the government altogether.
Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by HDThoreaun on Saturday June 01, 2024 @01:38PM (#40547638)
The problem with this is that many Californians who can afford solar can afford batteries too. If you live in socal its not unreasonable to decide you're just going off grid entirely in the face of income based fees. Then utilites will have to raise the price even more on the poor customers who arent being subsidized anymore
Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by OptionOfT on Saturday June 01, 2024 @10:36AM (#40546092)
You do get a discount when you buy more ahead of time, and guarantee that you will buy it.

This is different from wanting a fixed price for a spot-priced product.

Re:California sides with big utilities, trimming incentives ... by m463 on Saturday June 01, 2024 @07:07PM (#40549892)
you cannot do this with PG&E unless there is some plan I haven't heard about?