Why would you take your kids on a vacation during school? There are plenty of breaks during the year including all of summer.

Because those breaks don't line up with things like the solar eclipse.

Because those breaks don't line up with other cousins' breaks.

Because those breaks don't line up with great-grandma's 95th birthday, and she lives a full day's journey away.

Because those breaks don't line up with your work schedule, or your partner's work schedule.

Because my child is excelling academically, and I absolutely don't think that she'll get as much value out of being in school on Thursday & Friday as she will visiting her relatives in a foreign country for a long weekend.

Hammer, meet nail.

As my child's parent, it is my duty to be aware of their educational performance, needs, and shortcomings. Based on all that info, I have no problem deciding to take them out of school for two days to go trout fishing with grandpa, or to view the eclipse with grandma.

All of those situations existed in decades past. Why do parents think that school doesn't provide as much value as they used to?

People got pulled from class for vacations all the time when I was a kid.

It wasn't super common, but it was common enough that there was a standard procedure around it (basically you'd get the classwork/homework that you'd be missing and be expected to present it upon return).

I think a bigger part now is that schools are somewhat more overloaded, so missing class puts you "out of sync" and there's nothing to help you catch back up. When I was young the parents were expected to do that: I don't know how common it is now.

There’s a serious “butts in seats = cash” focus from admin, now. I’m not sure if funding arrangements used (80s and 90s? Pre-nclb? I dunno) to be different.

If you look at the history of why public education in the U.S. was enacted, there were 3 main reasons, none of which were actually educating children:

1. Assimilate immigrant children into American culture so that they would think of themselves as "American" first and whatever ethnicity they came from second. (Hence, the Pledge of Allegiance, national anthem, American football games, focus on history & social studies in class, etc.)

2. Provide childcare during working hours so parents could go to work. (Hence, compulsory education, hours that aligned with a factory schedule, high student-teacher ratios, etc.)

3. Teach children the skills they would need to be successful in the factory system. (Hence, attendance, arriving punctually, moving between rooms at the bell, following orders, not complaining, etc.)

What's happened over the last 40 years is that the factory system in America fell apart, and so the skills needed for it no longer seem all that relevant compared to actually getting a good education, which school is not all that effective at. Meanwhile there are new waves of immigration with parents that were often highly educated (moreso than native-born Americans, oftentimes) abroad; they don't buy the "this is what a good education looks like" explanation, because they have had an actual good education abroad. And the Internet in general makes people much more suspicious of institutions, because you can see the ways that different power centers try to enforce control of the discourse, and there is no unified discourse to get behind anyway. The public school system in America is deeply embedded in the industrial institutions that were developed from 1900-1980, and as those institutions collapse, the public school system collapses with them.

Correct, they did. And as someone who went to school ~20 years ago - the requirement the prior poster mentions was either not a thing or not enforced if the student was doing fine academically.

Pretty much no one raised an eyebrow about this sort of thing, certainly not at the 10 day total mark.

Why do you think the rules have remained the same?

Similarly, I don't think I ever had an "excused" absence, I didn't have to provide evidence or doctor's notes to the school when I was sick. That simply wasn't a thing that was tracked at all.

I'm not sure about parents in general, but I think schools do provide a tremendous amount of value now, the same as they did back when I was attending.

But that's overall, in aggregate. All those drops fill up a river. But a single drop won't be missed.

I get the impression it is more that many students that feel they were above the system are projecting other reasons into this, to be frank. Especially in forums like this one. Combine that with somehow we seem to have far less empathy and charity than in the past, and you get this sort of situation.

And it isn't even that folks are wrong; but evidence is fairly clear that nobody has a solution for education that works. We do know of a bunch of small things that can work in some situations, but at large, we are still trying.

Sorry, what? What does lack of empathy have to do with taking time out from school to go visit Grandma on her 95th birthday?

Lack of empathy for the how hard it is to run school. This place is dominated by people that know how things should be done and how things should be run. At large, they are wrong.

I'm open to the idea that I'm wrong on this, of course. Just peruse the top posts and you will see all sorts of assertions about how this isn't actually a problem. There are more than a few pointing out that schooling is irrelevant.

Again, these aren't necessarily wrong. But they are ignoring a whole lot more than they are talking to.

Sorry, I'm still lost. The GP was talking about all the reasons why their specific child might need to be somewhere other than in class on specific days. What does that have to do with empathy for how hard it is to run a school?

The GP is saying that all of the issues existed in years past. I'm saying that what happened is a lot of the current cohort of parents on this website were kids that excelled and likely did outside of school studying. For us, it may seem natural to think many of the things that you are seeing promoted on this site. That does not make these assertions true.

With one hand I can count all the times I was ever taken out of school in all my twelve years for any unexcused absences like these. Some of these seem farcical. Vacation lining up with my cousins' breaks? That's what summer break is for dude.

Truth is, some families just don't take education seriously.

I also find that attitude wild. Missing school by choice was something to be done only in extraordinary circumstances. Word of kids being gone for long vacations and such would get that look (“oh, they’re those sorts”) and a disappointed head shake from my parents.

(My parents’ background was dirt poor, rural, and white, to set the scene—but skipping by choice was something not to be taken lightly, you go to school, that’s how it is)

Same background as me. The times I 'voluntarily' skipped school were funerals of relatives. I think our perspective is the more common one in the general population, but I guess HN has a lot of those sort of people.

To add to that: Because leaving for vacation one day before school ends and returning one day after school resumes is often not even half as expensive as lining them up.

I think the answers you are getting to your question are reflective of someone we are seeing across many aspects of society. The division between three "haves" and the "have nots".

If course taking a kid out of school for once in a life time events should be okay, even applauded. And children who are excelling should be allowed to take that trip to Europe during school. They will learn more there than in a class room.

BUT, those excuses hinge in good academics and support at home.

I heard someone say once that at the end of the day, everyone is home schooled. If students are not raised in an environment that values education, it really doesn't matter if they are going to school everyday. In my opinion as a dad of two young kids, attendance is a symptom not a cause.

But penalizing attendance issues is a lot easier that fixing the core issues which I think are mostly economic and mental health related.

I and many of my peers grew up with one stay at home parent who volunteered at my school occasionally and engaged with my teachers. Now my wife and I both have to work to afford the lifestyle I had growing up. My kids are going to have to be in after school programs which are basically just babysitting even if I am in a position to afford good mentoring.

Cell phones and social media are also causing issues with older and younger students. Peer pressure is at an all time high and academic pressure is not far behind.

We are putting so much stress on these kids, when they are just kids. They need to explore their world, get their hands dirty and be curious. Not take yet another standardized test. American society is not kind to children.

Back to it being a haves and haves not issues. As someone with a sizable household income. I absolutely afford to supplement my children's education with museum memberships and trips to see events like the eclipse and frankly also mental health support. I am lucky to have a job that I can take time off anytime I want. But this is the bubble I am in of tech workers. The vast majority of Americans cannot do that. This divide is just going to continue to widen the gap.

I remember when I was younger, people with international family often would take 3-4 week trips to visit. That was because it was so expensive and painful to go, and there were so many people to visit when you went, and infrastructure there wasn't great at "popping over" for day visits to each of these places. Plus, it was often a once in two-four year visit to see an entire side (or all) of your family. So these kids would just pop out of school for this extended period. Longest I remember was almost 2 months. Usually the parents worked out a deal with the school and brought a bunch of work to be done on the trip, with an exam or makeups when they returned. I was one of these kids, and it sucked. But it was possible with the right support structure. I think when people abscond with no thought to the continued education, that's a huge problem.

Yup, I am a first generation immigrant and we traveled to see distant family in the summer. We also didn’t have a Nintendo or cable TV, because you know, trade-offs… one of which was rarely education.

> There are plenty of breaks during the year including all of summer.

When everyone else is doing the same thing. If you do it at a different time you could benefit from reduced costs and reduced traffic. You can also provide your child with a more rewarding and engaging experience than the drudgery and frustrating inefficiency of the typical school pedagogy.

Even without that summer is a terrible time to travel to many destinations. IMO much of Europe and southeast Asia is way too hot at that time. Mid to Late Spring and early Fall are much better.

Why would you prioritize making your kids sit in school over taking them and doing something fun like a vacation, given the option?

My first thought reading the headline was that more people are realizing the irrelevance of school and work, and prioritizing other things.

Because school is important and not at all irrelevant.

Education is important, not school. So long as school is a means to receive education it is important. A lot of people don't think it is anymore.

It becomes irrelevant when you're ahead on all of your studies (or if a 6 hour day is completable by you in an hour).

I am in the group that took 1-2 yearly week long vacations in elementary school. Nothing was lost, since I just did the week of required work in half a day after returning from vacation.

How will people make money to be able to afford to do those things?

How does having more life experiences preclude someone from earning money? I'd go so far as to suggest that a more rounded "real-world" education improves their chances of making money.

We need to stop thinking of "education" as a monolithic school concept that produces worker bees through rote memorization and repetition.

How different do you think your life would be today if your parents pulled you out of 4th grade for a week in February to go skiing or to Disney or to see cousins?

My gut agrees with you, but then we'll be keeping our young kids out of preschool to go see the eclipse. So much for principles lol.

To be fair, you are talking about a rare event, that is educational and honestly damn cool.

The science teacher at the school probably wishes they could do it.

Last chance for decades without going to another continent. I’ll likely be dead before I can see another. My kids were too young to remember the last one, some chance they’ll never see another. We’re going, too—first time we’ve taken them out for something other than illness or a doctor’s appointment or something.

We’re in luck in central Texas as they’ve canceled most school for the eclipse!

that's awesome! we have to drive about 2 hours to path of totality.

In my elementary schooling my parents would somewhat regularly (once a year, sometimes more) take a week or two vacation that didn't align with breaks, since sometimes things like family events, or good opportunities don't align with school. But my parents did it because they knew I wasn't really missing much.

I and a good many others in my classes were WAY ahead of the curriculum already, and basically sitting bored in class all day. I remember my parents literally asked my teachers to give me more advanced homework because I would constantly say I learned basically nothing or that days would go by wasted reviewing things I had already mastered.

So they were confident that I wasn't really missing much from being out even for a week or two at a time. I don't know if this is standard practice nowadays, but I know my parents also requested from the teacher that weeks worth of coursework so I could do them even while on vacation. I could usually finish a weeks worth of coursework within like an hour or two of sitting down, and I didn't even consider myself a particularly gifted student compared to some.

Because flying anywhere during those few short breaks is about 3-5x the cost vs. traveling at some other time. I'd rather fly to Europe for $400 per person vs. $2200 per person; it's the difference between going and not going.

Regional holidays, weather, seasonal events, chances for better experiences, cost, unexpected life events.. there are a couple

When I was growing up, my parents (government workers) had to request time off up to a year in advance, and they couldn’t always get a summer slot. We often vacationed in the Fall

Not sure why you're being downvoted. Education is important, missing a week can set a student back by a long way. Holidays are fun and if you have the resources they are certainly worth doing, but not at the cost of keeping up with a child's education. If you can't afford the holiday at the prices when schools are off, maybe you can't afford the holiday! There are plenty of affordable holidays always available and kids care much less about luxuries than adults do.

> Education is important, missing a week can set a student back by a long way.

It will set some back, it won’t set others back at all. Telling a kid who can keep up or who is ahead of the class that they can’t take a vacation because another kid couldn’t keep up if they took a vacation is bizarre. It’s like saying that someone who’s ahead of where the class is needs to go to summer school because a kid in the class who’s behind needs to take summer school.

Why should we use the lowest performers as the baseline, and tell higher performers that they aren’t allowed to do things they’re fully capable of doing?

I agree. Our kids are very much ahead, in part because when we travel, they learn a lot. They seen new places, new ways of doing things, learn history, apply their math and other acquired knowledge, they often learn things ahead of time just because they interact with other adults, they get to use free time to apply their knowledge and interests creatively. And with the right timing, they get to see their relatives far away without it draining our savings, which makes them happy, which is not only important, but makes them better students as well.

If your kids can miss a week of school and not be impacted, you should investigate better schools.

I know why I am being downvoted: I am questioning the entitlements of the average tech worker.

There are cultural events that don’t follow the US holiday schedule. For example, Nowruz.

Price. If you can travel outside of Dec 20-Jan10th and summer, you can pay maybe half. I have an annual grand trip around the world every year I do off season and I pay less for it in points or cash (mix depends on the places) than friends do to go to Hawaii for a week at Christmas.

What about just piling in the van and driving somewhere? That doesn’t cost more in the summer.

Is the expectation that a family takes a 2 week luxury vacation every year?

> What about just piling in the van and driving somewhere?

What about schools not sticking their nose too far out into the parts of life that they should not control? Like where and when we take our kids on vacations.

If my kids get good grades and catch up on any missed homework the school should not get spun up about them missing some days.

Turning schools into a mild version of prisons is not good for anyone -- kids, parents or the society. My 2c.

you can't teach very well if 20% of the class is absent, it just creates an absurd situation for the teachers

it's not that hard, if you commit to going to school, then just try to go and do vacations during school holidays

otherwise, just home school

This is true, high absentee rates make teachers’ jobs much harder. It’s the kind of thing that seems ok when it’s just your student, but if everyone behaves that way, it harms the whole class.

> you can't teach very well if 20% of the class is absent, it just creates an absurd situation for the teachers

Why is this? If true, why this problem is not appearing in private schools that pretty universally do not object to parents taking their kids away for vacations or family events as long as kids master the material.

The teacher needs to have a program of study with specific topics covered, recommended exercises for practice and required homework to check understanding for each. If a student masters the material why does anyone care if he skipped a week? And if the student does not know the material he should get a bad grade, whether he was in every class or not.

That is how the school worked where I grew up (Eastern Europe) and it seems vastly superior to the mess we have in the US today, where many public schools teach to the lowest common denominator, making capable kids bored at best and and a nuisance to the teacher at worst.

because what's going to happen is if enough students are absent, there will be a big number of them who thought they would master the material no problem, would turn out to be wrong and then would bug the teacher incessantly to let them retake or do something to avoid bad grades. in most high schools in America or in many there are multiple difficulty courses, if your kid can master it no problem even when being absent, it is likely that this kid is not taking serious enough courses.

Driving in the summer costs more;

Historically, retail gasoline prices tend to gradually rise in the spring and peak in late summer when people drive more frequently. Gasoline prices are generally lower in winter months.

>https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=8997844...

> Is the expectation that a family takes a 2 week luxury vacation every year?

Only at a certain level of upper-middle-class affluence, but for them probably. But even one-week cruises are much cheaper off-season.

Also, lots of travel is based around life events. I can’t control the fact that funerals and weddings can happen at any time of year.

We’re going to two in-law weddings this year and missing a single day of school. Fly in, fly out.

Funerals are bereavement leave from school so you don’t need to worry.

I feel like 90% of midwesterners would be agreeing with me…

It can entirely depend on your family/friend circle. For me and mine, In-n-Out is expected, weddings are happening in the locality of one of the families, many are day trips.

Other people's family and friends will have multiple destination weddings, etc.

Still suspect it's not a major component, kids can only have so many grandparents after all.

Is there a regional component to this?

Some of the “meh, missing two weeks a year for vacations isn’t a big deal” attitudes in this thread are very surprising to me, also as a midwesterner.

You can control if you are going...

Lol. Yes I suppose.

You can have as many excused as you want though.