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Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by diggan on Friday March 29, 2024 @08:09AM (#39863057)
> In a working-class pocket of Michigan, school administrators have tried almost everything, including pajama day, to boost student attendance.

Wow, pajama day didn't bring back students? So strange.

I wonder if they tried less homework, shorter school-days and/or later start of the day? Basically the three reasons I myself was chronically absent from school for as long as I can remember.

Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by 542458 on Friday March 29, 2024 @08:21AM (#39863166)
The article highlights that many parents whose children are absent are treating the posted assignments/homework as the primary teaching tool, so cutting that back hurts absent kids (I also understand that homework’s has been massively scaled back already in most places). Shorter days unfortunately interferes with school’s role as state-provided daycare for working parents.

Later days is a solid idea, and I believe research shows it improves student performance at the highschool level, although if I understand correctly this is largely a scheduling/budget issue with how busses are staggered today.

Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by mhitza on Friday March 29, 2024 @08:32AM (#39863276)
> Shorter days unfortunately interferes with school’s role as state-provided daycare for working parents.

If that would be the intent, arcade cabinets, open play fields, parks and other social areas within school grounds would be the way to go.

My understanding is that the current school "format" was developed during the industrial revolution stage, and its meant to instill into kids that schedule and "lifestyle". Which to many extents hasn't kept up with the way society is evolving.

More funding into schools would help (which countries contribute significantly to education anyway?), but also by helping kids develop and learn in what they have an interest. Instead of the currently standardized boring circula. And the sometimes insane hours.

On that note, during highschool I had days where I've had up to 7 different classes a day. At least when you go to work, even if it's 8 hours, I (and maybe you as well) got to slack at least 1 hour a day in the morning, or even in the afternoon after the 1 hour lunch break.

Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by the_sleaze9 on Friday March 29, 2024 @08:52AM (#39863468)
As I understand it, USA is one of the highest funded education systems in the world. Funding for education even outpaces USA's um.. robust defense spending.

The trick is to look into total funding - beyond federal funding and into state funding.

I strongly agree that education in the internet age needs to evolve. I would love to see an education system centered around critical and entrepreneurial thinking, financial literacy, Cognitive Behavioral thinking tools. If you give kids something worthwhile they'll use it and come back for more.

https://www.pgpf.org/budget-basics/how-is-k-12-education-fun...

Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by shrimp_emoji on Friday March 29, 2024 @08:54AM (#39863488)
But it's also one of the biggest countries in the world.

It's simply too big and undeveloped for education to work as well as in, say, Switzerland. See also public transportation.

Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by bombcar on Friday March 29, 2024 @10:39AM (#39864633)
Rural schools often do better than urban schools, so size and transportation are likely not the reasons.
Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by willcipriano on Friday March 29, 2024 @09:50AM (#39864095)
It's near the top per student as well.
Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by newaccount7hhhf on Friday March 29, 2024 @08:59AM (#39863561)
The dude knows that. Can he have possibly used this argument in good faith. No. Can we call it out on HN without the conservatards flagging it. No.
Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by alephnerd on Friday March 29, 2024 @08:26AM (#39863222)
My mom's a teacher in a decent school district in California, and later school times didn't have a significant effect on post-pandemic absences in her experiences (for the students who did come in, it did have a positive effect on their performance though).

The brutal truth is a subset of parents just don't care too much about education. It doesn't matter if it's an affluent or a working class district - there will always be a subset of parents that are either unable to (fairly common among impoverished parents sadly) or uninterested to (fairly uncommon among more affluent parents sadly) become much more involved parents

Basically, teachers assume parents will intervene in their students lives to give structure. Parents in the other hand assume teachers will intervene to give their children structure in their lives. And neither side will budge.

Some autonomy for kids is critical, but there also needs to be some amount of structure as well. You can't be 100% disciplinarian nor 100% free roaming. A happy balance is needed, and sadly, a handful of bad apples among both teachers and parents have deteriorated that relationship among these critical caregivers.

Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by silverquiet on Friday March 29, 2024 @08:58AM (#39863537)
There are frequently threads on this site regarding the drop-off in fertility in advanced societies. When I point out that not all of us are capable of handling the stresses of modern child-rearing given the intense expectations for education and concomitant expense of that, someone will inevitably chime in with something like, "kids don't really need all that". I'm sure that they did not decades ago, and I'd love for it to be the case that they did not these days, but it seems that the future for those who do not make it through the system is rather bleak.
Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by alephnerd on Friday March 29, 2024 @09:02AM (#39863580)
In all honesty, America is now a cutthroat society similar to those back in the old country (and even developed ones too like Korea, Taiwan, Japan, and Israel).

A lot of Americans and Westerners in general seem to ignore that reality, and will fall behind.

Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by toomuchtodo on Friday March 29, 2024 @08:39AM (#39863345)
~40% of pregnancies annually in the US are unintended, so the uninvolved/uninterested/under-resourced parent thesis isn’t unreasonable.
Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by alephnerd on Friday March 29, 2024 @08:43AM (#39863389)
Absolutely!

There absolutely is a small subset of parents like that, though being in the Bay Area, access to abortion has been fairly common for decades, especially given the affluence of the district and the relative lack of stigma, so I don't see that as playing a significant factor.

Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by toomuchtodo on Friday March 29, 2024 @08:56AM (#39863517)
~11.6 million children live in poverty in the US as of this comment, so while I have no context wrt the Bay Area (have never lived there), I can reasonably put forth that this cohort in particular will not receive the environment needed for robust educational development.

https://datacenter.aecf.org/data/tables/43-children-in-pover...

Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by alephnerd on Friday March 29, 2024 @08:58AM (#39863539)
Agreed, and I mention it in my comment as well, so IDK what your point is.
Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by toomuchtodo on Friday March 29, 2024 @09:00AM (#39863567)
My point is that parenting is hard, expensive, very involved [1] [2], and it should be unsurprising that the success rate is not great from an attendance or academic outcome perspective. Not arguing with you, providing citations for my thesis that agrees with your anecdotes.

[1] https://archive.is/dXpQf

[2] https://archive.is/dXpQf/fba33991824e68e9b1ecfbde5c773bcbe92... (from [1])

Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by alephnerd on Friday March 29, 2024 @09:07AM (#39863636)
Fair enough! Sorry for the standoffish tone! HN has been getting to me lately
Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by newaccount7hhhf on Friday March 29, 2024 @09:05AM (#39863617)
Are you fucking kidding me.
Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by pastage on Friday March 29, 2024 @08:35AM (#39863314)
I only have anecdata but the three kids I know of all have some kind of diagnosis making it hard for them in school. From my recollection it was more or less the same in my days just that the kids went to school and wasted their time. Some kids are definitely harder to help than others.

EDIT: This is for Sweden where we are talking about the same issue. But I do not think we have the same numbers here.

Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by alephnerd on Friday March 29, 2024 @08:37AM (#39863332)
> some kind of diagnosis making it hard for them in school

This is a valid reason to be absent, and school administrators, teachers, and statistics take that into account.

My comment was aimed specifically at students who don't have valid physical or mental issues.

My mom's school district does not enforce suspensions for chronic absenteeism due to a subset of very affluent and litigious parents.

> This is for Sweden

Makes sense. There is no point comparing the Swedish or "American" system, as there are 13,187 different American systems that all have different norms and rules besides a handful stipulated by the DoE.

Even inter-US comparisons don't make sense for that reason.

Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by HWR_14 on Friday March 29, 2024 @09:17AM (#39863746)
Did schools really start later post-pandemic? Your entire first paragraph confuses me because I'm not aware of any shift in school start times.
Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by alephnerd on Friday March 29, 2024 @09:20AM (#39863772)
I'm speaking only about California and specifically, the school district my mom works for.

As of 2022, Middle schools can start at 8am at the earliest, and number of school districts transitioned to a 8.30-9am start time. Some affluent school districts already did this transition in the late 2000s and early 2010s.

The US has roughy 13k school districts. Each one has it's own different sets of rules, regulations, and local political culture, and aside from limited State and Federal DoE regulation, implement their policies based on local political constraints due to the School Board and PTA.

Some School Boards and PTAs are apolitical in nature. Others are hyper-political and used as a stepping stone to enter local and state level politics (eg. Mayor, City Council, State Assembly, Congress) as donors won't donate without a proven electoral track record. Most younger (< 60yrs) Congressmembers started their political careers this way.

Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by JumpCrisscross on Friday March 29, 2024 @08:24AM (#39863194)
> if I understand correctly this is largely a scheduling/budget issue with how busses are staggered today

My California public school district had no busses. I still remember miserably making 7AM classes.

Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by alephnerd on Friday March 29, 2024 @08:27AM (#39863230)
They still don't, even when I was a kid and even today.
Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by Ajay-p on Friday March 29, 2024 @08:33AM (#39863296)
..or maybe if they focused more on academics, reducing bullying and violence, and less political-socializing students would feel they are getting something out of it.
Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by kwhitefoot on Friday March 29, 2024 @09:02AM (#39863581)
How many academics do we need? How about teaching more crafts? Definitely agree that reducing bullying is a good idea though!
Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by bluedevil2k on Friday March 29, 2024 @08:30AM (#39863256)
Less homework? My teenage children are in honors and AP classes and barely have any homework. I think they should have far more homework. When I was their age I spent a few hours a day on homework. Parents I talk to feel the same way. Give the kids more work to do at home to keep them off their phones and YouTube.
Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by kwhitefoot on Friday March 29, 2024 @08:37AM (#39863333)
Homework has been demonstrated over and over again to not result in higher attainment.

If your children are so smart they can surely do some reading and research of their own. That's what I did back in prehistoric times (1960s and early 1970s). In the subjects I enjoyed I was consistently ahead of the bulk of the class and occasionally of the teachers simply because I read all the text books and spent time in the library. It was enthusiasm that drove my performance not the imposition of extra homework.

Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by martindbp on Friday March 29, 2024 @09:05AM (#39863613)
I still don't see any data from school maximalists that schooling is anything more than signaling (beyond basic math and literacy), and that kids wouldn't be much happier if they could spend time on projects and pursuits they were passionate about instead. My son is 6 and in 6 months of a Minecraft obsession he's fluent in English (besides Swedish and Chinese), learning about all sorts of concepts like animal breeding, crop rotation and automating factories and farms and building all sorts of machinery. Meanwhile school is teaching one letter a week. I can guarantee that if you put kids like him together with a bunch of other kids with the same passion and let them go wild building stuff with some guidance from a technically competent adult, they would come out much more prepared for life at 18. Fine if your kid has no curiosity or internal drive to do anything, but then I question what they will get out of school anyway.
Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by anon__coward on Friday March 29, 2024 @08:57AM (#39863527)
References please. The claim that hw does not help retention sounds pretty unbelievable.
Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by muaytimbo on Friday March 29, 2024 @10:24AM (#39864471)
HN is a fact free zone, didn't you know that?
Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by kwhitefoot on Friday March 29, 2024 @01:38PM (#39866843)
From the abstract:

“Although previous research has shown that homework improves students’ academic achievement, the majority of these studies use data on students’ homework time from retrospective questionnaires, which may be less accurate than time-diary data. We use data from the combined Child Development Supplement (CDS) and the Transition to Adulthood Survey (TA) of the Panel Study of Income Dynamics to explore the effects of time spent on homework while attending high school on two measures of academic achievement: high school GPA and college attendance by age 20. We find that homework time has no effect on these measures of academic achievement.”

Rønning, M. (2008). Who benefits from homework assignments? (Discussion Papers No. 566). Oslo, Norway: Statistics Norway, Research Department. Retrieved from https://eric.ed.gov/?id=EJ908287 Full text available http://www.ssb.no/a/publikasjoner/pdf/DP/dp566.pdf

Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by gardenhedge on Friday March 29, 2024 @08:57AM (#39863534)
Really? Just based on repetition and revisiting material you think it would have benefits
Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by kwhitefoot on Friday March 29, 2024 @09:00AM (#39863565)
Most students do homework grudgingly. This is not like a high achieving software dev using spaced repetition.
Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by ptero on Friday March 29, 2024 @09:39AM (#39864000)
I envy you! Both of my kids had unhealthy amount of high school homework.

I know many parents whose kids stayed up until 1-2am at least once a week. We expressed strong opinions to our kids that sleep is way more important than getting an extra grade bump, but many kids still trade sleep for a better grade.

Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by alt227 on Friday March 29, 2024 @11:23AM (#39865174)
Who are these kids? I have never met a child who would avoid sleep and stay up half the night to do homework.

/slight sarcasm.

Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by ptero on Friday March 29, 2024 @12:46PM (#39866159)
Do you have kids? If so, what ages?

US schools have changed, a lot, in the last 30 years. Many schools now are pressure cookers on both the teachers and peer levels. So some kids stay up very late and some go on antidepressants. On the other side are schools where no one cares about academics, and the bar for good grades is no mischief. Which is also not a great school for any kid.

Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by rybosworld on Friday March 29, 2024 @09:04AM (#39863603)
"I had to do it, so should the younger generation" is the the same line of thinking that delayed remote work a decade longer than it needed to be, and an over emphasis on knowing how to write in cursive.
Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by xcode42 on Friday March 29, 2024 @09:09AM (#39863663)
I mean, you are their parent, if you believe that your kids don't have enough work to do, give them more work to do? why would that need to be handled through homework? the purpose of homework is to serve as a teaching aid to help students internalize and memorize the lessons given. If your kid is an honors student it sounds like he has learned what he needs to learn, why give them more homework?
Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by iammjm on Friday March 29, 2024 @08:19AM (#39863147)
I remember getting to school for the 7:45 AM class as some of the worst times of my childhood. Imagine a deep Polish winter, it’s -15 Celsius, you get up at 6:30 in complete darkness, you walk to a bus station to get on an overcrowded bus where you can barely even stand as all the other kids are going too. then starting the day with an hour of math with a sociopathic, incompetent teacher… it took me years to appreciate school and learning again
Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by grugagag on Friday March 29, 2024 @08:22AM (#39863169)
I have some similar horrible experiences with school but hey, isn’t it like an authentic prep for the real world?
Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by kwhitefoot on Friday March 29, 2024 @08:38AM (#39863341)
> isn’t it like an authentic prep for the real world?

No. And if it were don't you think it would be better to teach the children how to improve the state of the world instead of perpetuating its evils?

Re:Why School Absences Have 'Exploded' Almost Everywhere by AtlasBarfed on Friday March 29, 2024 @08:54AM (#39863489)
"fat psychopathic wives would thrash them within inches of their lives!"