> Why would people give money to Microsoft for such bad hardware? They treat their customers like garbage.

Education, workplace policy. Managers _love_ Microsoft.

Office and Active Directory (and related stuff)

>My Surface had a swollen battery which killed the device.

Statistically, all devices suffer from swollen batteries. I've even see iPhones and iPads die from swollen batteries. There's a certain tiny % fallout in manufacturing of battery cells where they may degrade and fail prematurely and swelling is a safety feature.

I had two surfaces die from swollen batteries. The problem was frequent enough that Microsoft Store staff (rip) would exchange it immediately, no questions asked.

This was back during the Surface Book 1 days. I’ve been a happy surface user ever since, and haven’t had any other battery or build quality issues since.

Eventually, almost all LiPo batteries will puff up. But there are definitely some devices that reliably cause this problem far sooner than it should occurr, due to poor charge management and thermal management.

Yeah, although, having owned a Surface Book 2, and being a .NET developer, the only Windows sytems I'll have in my home will probably be Microsofts own, unless someone makes laptops that are as nice, for half the cost. Things just work on my SB2. The only reason I'll buy a new one is if it either dies, or I see a really good deal. I've had it since 2017 iirc and its been pretty great thus far.

My next laptop will likely be a Mac, mines hit the mark where Apple wont let me update anymore, kind of makes me angry that Apple does that to perfectly usable hardware, but I like the ecosystem and my laptop was a min-spec anyway, needs to be upgraded, just waiting on a deal yet again.

Try https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/ I recently used it on a 2014 5k iMac to install Sonoma (14.3) and it's been flawless in my experience - everything is buttery smooth as you'd expect.

I also installed on a 2015 Macbook (12"...horrible Intel mobile processor.) It works, but the CPU is just too underpowered to do basic stuff like web browsing and messaging...if you're impatient like me anyway ;)

OCLP gives up on security when it modifies the OS to use drivers from an older OS. Machines which use OCLP don't get firmware updates to patch severe security vulnerabilities.

It's fine if you just need to make use of some hardware for a bit longer with macOS. Linux may be better in terms of security. It might not be a good fit for many.

I did see that, but I heard someone suggest that it might not be the best idea since your OS could become unstable. At some point I may just consider installing Linux on that Macbook, but not before replacing it, since my wife would be upset if she was stuck with Linux. She prefers to just use macOS.

Dotnet on Linux is superior in every way to windows. No ads, no crap, vscode is better on Linux than windows and since .net framework is dead, no reliance on windows in any way, shape or form.

I mean, you’re probably deploying to Linux containers anyway.

Surface is pretty well regarded as I understand it. Microsoft set out to make 'the sortof macbook equivlaent for windows' and largely succeeded. Although obviously macbook remains the champion overall I guess. I'm sorry you had a battery problem.

For some of the best Windows hardware on the market, look no further than Microsoft’s Surface brand - WIRED

Also: I dont ever see ads in Windows, but I guess somone must be getting them. Not sure what I'm doing right to avoid them.

Do you sign in with a Microsoft account? If you do, that's probably the reason why you don't see ads in Windows 11. The system settings UI on Windows 11 always shows an ad which says that an account should be used to use office and other apps.

Microsoft has updated apps even on Windows 10 to recommend other apps. The Photos app was recommending a video editor app recently. Windows 11 shows ads, suggestions and installs a lot of garbage apps to upsell people into office 365, Onedrive and other things.

I recently had to reinstall my office that I bought. It signed me into an account without permission and uploaded documents there. I had to sign out of that account to prevent it from uploading documents automatically. Most of the documents I edit contain my PII. I can sue them.

> The system settings UI on Windows 11 always shows an ad which says that an account should be used to use office and other apps.

Macs also do this with their iCloud accounts, with little widgets all around the place prompting you to log in to their app store, etc... if you don't have an account. Possibly those prompts or ads are even more "in-your-face" than Windows? Probably most Mac users don't notice them because most just create an account

Just swipe left to right on Windows 11. The widget page is like 60% ads disguised as news by default. It's so easy to trigger accidentally on Windows tablets. I feel like Windows 11 is the Windows 8 for tablets. They took pretty much every gain and good thing Windows had as tablet OS and made it garbage.

Windows 11 grew up from the Windows 10X remains, thus there is some truth to it.

The new Windows mail app has ads in it that look almost exactly like normal emails. They pushed me to adopt it from the old mail app and I'm regretting the decision. Apple's mail apps never do that.

Checkout Winomail

My Surface Laptop from 2019 wasn’t supported by Win11 because of TPM limitation (I guess there was a registry hack) but I expect the requirements for Win11 were defined by 2019 for its 2021 release, yet they skimmed on a very expensive prosumer laptop under their own Microsoft brand.

After getting a Mac I’ll never purchase a Windows device again.

+ Terrible battery

+ Terrible build quality

+ Terrible support

+ Noise of fan having a stroke

Every single windows device ever has "Terrible build quality"? Weird take

€3K Dell XPS

- Screen broke (Never left the desk)

- “Carbon” started to peel, looks like the laptop has dandruff

——

Lenovo

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/litigation/lenovo-class-settle...

So many relatives/friends buying €800-€1000 devices that become unusable after 1/2 years.

Plastic junk.

My SurfaceBook has a better build quality that my MacBook Pro model from the same era (2019) - MacBooks have improved a lot in the last few years though with the new chips I guess?

I prefer the MacOs to Windows, but MacBook hardware was definitely disappointment on this model. I had numerous graphics & power issues on the MacBook Pro, plus touchbar was annoying.

Dell & Lenovo are crap, I've given up on them. Surface is good, and I'm happy with my LG Gram.

There is selection bias in their ownership experience. But I really concur. Microsoft hardware is better than stock Chinese PC hardware, but still not as good as Apple hardware (all produced in China).

My ThinkPad has okay support with the on-site option, but you're right on with all the other things.

I don't understand why Lenovo (and Dell and the other major PC makers) can see the $/sq.ft. that an Apple store generates and not open their own stores? I'd feel a lot more comfortable recommending a ThinkPad to a friend if there was a local place they could shop at, get repairs, and take classes.

Yeah, no. Macs are nice $2000 machines but are nothing special compared to other current $2000 machines.

Windows being somewhat bad, yes, definitely. However, the hardware auch as much higher res, OLED, touch, high refresh rate, pen etc. can be very good.

Shhh. Don't break the Microsoft/Windows bashing sentiment, they really need to feel superior with their Apple ePeen. But yes, if you look at the market, 2K in a PC laptop will usually get something better than what Apple would like to sell you. You'll get worse battery life but generally better power for most workloads, and if you use it lightly like all those MacBook fanboys seems to do it won't be nearly as big of a difference they like to claim.

But hey gotta justify the extortionate price somehow...

My macbook pro circa late 2000s would argue the last one. After switching completely to linux only windows I have is work issued.

Their mouses were great, back when the rest of the company was also a lot less user-hostile.

> Their mouses were great

They still are, as long as you don't make the mistake of using them on Windows.

I have had a few surfaces for work. They are actually really nice hardware, but the Surface Book had one design flaw, which would periodically disconnect USB headsets. That was my only real complaint.

I would say the comparison to Macbooks is fair.

the special firmware that microsoft uses in these machines breaks network, USB, anything that you attach to it. it just can't get power management right. I've been saddled with one of these for 5+ years and it just never got better.

Maybe they used to be better. I love my Surface Pro 2. Paired up with Linux, it's a kick ass little machine.

Imagine: If Microsoft pushed so hard for Modern Standby and even THEY cannot get it right, why should you trust any laptop designed for Windows to have proper power management?

It’s interesting that everything you just listed also applies to Apple — not that they’re the only alternative here.

I guess I should feel fortunate that for Apple, at least the ads are limited to its own range of products.

We have a bunch of Surface products deployed at work and those people seem to love them. I can’t think of any high-rate failures affecting them.

Edit: Wow, I guess we have a lot of angry Apple fanatics here. Am I wrong somewhere? Please point it out. FWIW, I use and prefer Apple products.

Apple hardware is not garbage, to start with.

iOS has push notifications adverts from Apple as well.

The microsoft hardware and OEM devices that MS sold directly were historically THE ones to buy because they were optimized to show off Windows, so no crapware, good drivers, limited BS. I don't know when that changed, but it has.

>> are packed with features that business customers have been requesting

This is a total lie, unless they're referencing THEIR customers trying to sell you all this shit. The developer story from Microsoft is as good as it's ever been, but the consumer side just sucks. As a historically Windows developer who now does most of their work in .net core or totally outside the MS ecosystem, but still plays the odd triple-A game I don't know what to do for my next computer.

Honestly, I find this to be such a weird argument. Apple does the same crap with iCloud and people put their hardware on a pedestal when it has the same inherent flaws, often for a much higher price. And maybe you share this opinion, I just want to point out that this hardware from MS is relatively benign in the grand scheme of the PC world.

Completely agree that Apple does the exact same stuff with account management and iCloud notifications, but I don’t understand where these arguments keep coming from that Apple is more costly.

The 13.5 sLaptop 6 for Business is, i5/8gb/256gb is $1200

Compare that the 14” MBP (M3/8gb/512gb) for $1600. The diff in SSD storage offsets some of the cost, but not the whole $400

However, the 13” MacBook Air with the same specs (although a much better CPU) - M3/8gb/256gb is actually $100 cheaper.

Until someone builds an actual M3 competitor, Apple’s making better laptops for cheaper.

I have an M1 16” MBP that’s still running laps around any other laptop I’ve ever owned, including the 15” sBook 2 with a 1060. The Windows Arm laptop I have sucks compared to the M-series.

Anyway, totally agree that Apple does the same cross-sell garbage as Microsoft, just think it’s way off to argue that their hardware is more expensive, at least meaningfully so when you compare the performance, longevity, and battery life.

Does Apple require an Apple ID/iCloud account to set up a Mac? I thought that was a difference with windows 11?

They do not

Windows 11 changed the OOBE to have users sign in, though this can be bypassed fairly easily if you're tech-literate. Sometimes for installs I'll bypass, other times I'll log in with a Microsoft account, then create a local user, switch to that user, and then delete the computer account for the MS account.

My original comment was that macOS is no better. They require an account for downloading any app on the app store. The Microsoft store does not require one.

Well that depends where you buy, and I would argue that buying Surface device outside of sales/special offers is not a very wise decision. Those are MSRP not necessarily the price people will buy them at (unlike Apple).

Even then, a Surface Laptop is somewhere in between a MacBook Air and MacBook pro depending on configuration. Where I live, if you start adding necessary options, at the announced price a SL6 16/512GO is more expensive than a MacBook Air 16/512 (1879 vs 1759 euros) but much less expensive than a base MacBook Pro with 16/512 (2229 euros) and it arguably perform closer to the latter (especially with the dedicated 8GB of VRAM).

Then again, I would not buy them at launch and at the very least one should wait for their consumer-oriented offering.

Where I agree with you, is in Microsoft being almost as idiotic as Apple are with their pricing.

MSRP is the best way to compare. In the US, there are significant deals for Apple devices all the time.

Yes, my argument was not that the Surface was competitive in pricing. There are much more reasonable options in the Windows world.

Well you said “from MS,” so I took that as one would.

Comparing some third party provider against Apple isn’t entirely reasonable, unless they’re marketing a very similarly premium brand.

There are _many_ manufacturers that have premium products, including your "boring" manufacturers like HP, Dell, and Lenovo.

True, and all of their MSRPs are easily comparable to Apple’s similarly-specked hardware.

I never seen any iCloud “ad” outside of iCloud settings item.

On windows I literally get annoying notification to use OneDrive.

That is because apple doesn't ask you, it just turns it on. If you don't accept changes to their terms of service (As I haven't) you'd get these notifications fairly regularly.

Granted, I have iCloud turned on (for syncing notes and calendar) but I have it turned off for everything else. I’ve never had it ask me to turn on any of the other iCloud features like iCloud backup or drive / desktop sync. (And I’d guess if it synced things without my knowledge it would show up in my iCloud storage usage?)

I'm glad I moved over to Mac. I know it's not perfect, but it's much better than Windows. They seem determined to lose customers.

I really like the concept of the Surface Book and got one several years ago. The keyboard no longer works when detaching the screen, so it's practically useless. Even a full reinstall didn't fix that issue.

Their new hardware is moot because ARM is just on a different level. Yeah, they can stick an H class Intel processor, but that will seriously heat up the laptop and eat the battery.

The only reason I still use a windows machine is because of gaming. I'm sure lots of users are on Windows because they have no choice.

> ...can't stop trying to upsell people into using onedrive, forcefully signs you into onedrive, syncs your local files into their cloud without consent, tries really hard to not let you sign in with a local account and most likely does other shady things.

This portion of the complaint was a playbook that was defined by Apple and icloud. Feels like an out of the frying pan into the fire situation.

You can use Mac without icloud. They don't push it nearly as hard as Windows.

On the other hand apple collects lots of telemetry out of sight.

>Their hardware is more or less garbage. My Surface had a swollen battery which killed the device.

Macbook has swollen battery issue as well.

Microsoft Hardware is more or less the best on the PC market. The only company that spend R&D money from I/O, Speaker, Keyboard, Trackpad etc to try and match Apple MacBook if not exceed it. And a lot of these innovation or improvements gets filtered through to other PC OEM over the years.

You can shit about Microsoft software all you want. But in terms of PC Laptop market, they have done far more than most of the other companies. Had Pro Gaming / Pro Sumer Laptop not been a thing most other laptop manufacture would continue to milk and sell absolute garbage a la HP or Dell not a long time ago.

You need to get windows 11 pro. the home versions or anything less than pro is subsidized by ads.

Not sure where this info is coming from? Untrue from my experience.

> Why would people give money to Microsoft for such bad hardware? They treat their customers like garbage.

Who cares. Just make sure Apple isn't allowed to hold a line on doing things differently, then everyone else can compete fine?

The Windows division reports to the CEO of Advertising, of course it's gonna be like this.