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Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by tjoff on Friday March 08, 2024 @03:35PM (#39646104)
Yeah we get to choose between google and apple. Lucky us...
Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by biscuitech on Friday March 08, 2024 @04:35PM (#39646781)
Would you rather have no choice?

I get the sentiment, but it's nice to finally have lawmakers and regulators standing for what's right - for once.

Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by zakki on Friday March 08, 2024 @06:44PM (#39647911)
No Apple nor Google doesn't mean no other. Someone/something will step in.
Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by burnerthrow008 on Friday March 08, 2024 @06:03PM (#39647590)
I would rather that developers do not have the choice to choose an app store where anything goes.

It’s funny how when Apple threatens a European company the EC can act within days, but when a German company is violating the GDPR, it takes 4 years for them to act. What a strange coincidence.

Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by AnthonyMouse on Friday March 08, 2024 @10:38PM (#39649204)
> I would rather that developers do not have the choice to choose an app store where anything goes.

That's not up to you. What you get to decide is which stores you're willing to install apps from. If lots of people refuse to install apps from unrestrictive stores then developers who want to reach those users will have to meet the requirements of more restrictive stores.

You would only not have this choice if the app has a dominant market position, and then can force you to get it from a store you don't want to use. But then your problem isn't an overabundance of trust busting, it's an insufficiency of it.

Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by tshaddox on Friday March 08, 2024 @04:42PM (#39646860)
Aren’t regulators by definition establishing regulations which make all choices more similar to each other?
Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by dwattttt on Friday March 08, 2024 @04:56PM (#39646988)
More similar in that they force them to obey the regulations, yes. But regulations cover things like interoperability & anti-competitive behaviour, and here retaliatory actions. I'd very much like _all_ choices to be forced to behave the same w.r.t. not being able to retaliate against protected action, or all be forced to follow the same laws.
Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by kelnos on Friday March 08, 2024 @06:28PM (#39647787)
There are plenty of ways to differentiate in a competitive market. Good regulations set baselines for fair play, both toward customers and competitors. Whether or not that makes some aspects of those choices more similar isn't really relevant. Or if it is, it's because it makes them similar in good ways. Ways that are pro-customer and pro-competition, but they won't do unless legally required.
Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by tshaddox on Friday March 08, 2024 @06:39PM (#39647863)
I agree that there are plenty of ways competitors could differentiate themselves. But in the current market, I think there are very few competitors, and even fewer ways they currently differentiate themselves. And the most notable recent regulations would eliminate one of the more meaningful differentiations.
Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by ethbr1 on Friday March 08, 2024 @06:49PM (#39647947)
Differentiating on percent of app / subscription price taken by app store?
Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by tshaddox on Friday March 08, 2024 @09:19PM (#39648869)
That’s not what I had in mind.
Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by wredue on Friday March 08, 2024 @05:55PM (#39647508)
Sure. In the same way that all sports are similar in that most have regulations against fighting.
Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by tshaddox on Friday March 08, 2024 @06:36PM (#39647841)
But we’re not in a situation where there are very few sports, where many people complain about the lack of choice in sports, and where regulators are attempting to eliminate one of the very few meaningful differences between the existing choices.
Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by johnnyanmac on Friday March 08, 2024 @05:24PM (#39647243)
Other titans tried, they all failed to capture. Blackberry lagged for too long and Microsoft simply lacked the network effects since early advertisement was based on how large the app stores were.

The only solace is that you can modify Android to the point where there's almost no Google interference whatsoever. But of course some apps choose to rely on that (e.g. Banking).maybe one day Apple will begrudgingly get to that point.

Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by amluto on Friday March 08, 2024 @05:55PM (#39647510)
> Microsoft simply lacked the network effects

MS beat Apple to market by a considerable margin. Windows Mobile substantially predates the iPhone, and it was actually usable. (I had one of their flagship devices.)

But MS’s OS concept was incoherent, their UI was laggy, their web browser was unbearably slow despite arguably superior hardware, their form factor was not snazzy. And, unlike Apple, they utterly failed at marketing to consumers.

Also, Apple out their foot down against carrier nonsense, so Apple users didn’t have to deal with $14.99/mo for Verizon Location or whatever they called it. (Although, to be fair, the original iPhone didn’t have GPS. Blackberry had far superior hardware at the time and really ought to have been able to compete, but they didn’t.)

By the time the App Store showed up, it was pretty clear that Apple was beating MS.

Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by smegger001 on Friday March 08, 2024 @06:38PM (#39647857)
blackberry didn't seem to care about regular consumers until it was to late, instead relying on corporate customers and relying on integration with enterprise messaging software.

windows was well windows 8 and everyone hated it and everything about it. (and pre-windows phone 8 it was to fragmented with to many incompatible versions and little 3rd party support)

Palm/HP WebOS was the real mobile OS with the best chance to win but failed because well HP... need i say more.

Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by ethbr1 on Friday March 08, 2024 @06:53PM (#39647971)
> blackberry didn't seem to care about regular consumers until it was to late, instead relying on corporate customers and relying on integration with enterprise messaging software.

Has trapped so many businesses.

Enterprise customers can afford to pay enough to support good profit margins...

... but there are many more regular consumers, and regular consumer demands tend to produce better solutions than baroque enterprise demands (usually company- or VP-specific).

Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by numpad0 on Friday March 08, 2024 @10:28PM (#39649175)
I think a lot of lessons learned around iPhone 2007-2012 have to do with looking at the elephant in the room.

Blackberry was doing great with keyboards and refused to sell more of. Windows Mobile had tons of muscles as market share they just trimmed off. Windows Phone had Marketplace trust issue that couldn't be solved. Nokia burned itself down before Google. Palm did most of it right, but couldn't be bothered with exclusivity reneg.

I can't say solving any one of them could have saved each of the brands, but they all had one giant elephant each that were enough to drag them down.

Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by plank on Saturday March 09, 2024 @02:36AM (#39650135)
A PalmOs user myself, I remember thinking the iPhone should have had no chances against the Palms. Although, might be the reason I went the Android way when that arrived;-)
Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by berniedurfee on Saturday March 09, 2024 @12:13PM (#39653075)
There was no way big enterprises were going to allow those ‘toy’ iPhones on their network.

That was the attitude for a minute until the CEO got a cool iPhone.

Same with Macs. And jeans.

Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by fragmede on Friday March 08, 2024 @10:04PM (#39649086)
> Also, Apple out their foot down against carrier nonsense

This is the main point, not the "also". Apple's revolution was actually getting it in the hands of real life consumers who paid for cell phone plans. The tech was already there with blackberry, but you had to have business to afford it. Yes, the original iPhone itself was a technical marvel, but it would have been a dead fish if it wasn't for the at& t deal that came out as part of it.

Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by leptons on Saturday March 09, 2024 @12:42AM (#39649677)
>the original iPhone itself was a technical marvel

Apple didn't invent anything in the original iPhone, except the software. And the first version was really lacking and very buggy.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/steve-jobs-rigged-first-iphon...

Other phones that predated the iPhone release had more capabilities and more software. There was nothing really "marvelous" about the original iPhone, it was many years behind Microsoft.

The HTC Wizard was a "technical marvel" in 2005. Apple was playing catch-up in 2007.

Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by fragmede on Saturday March 09, 2024 @11:33PM (#39656729)
You're right. The "technical marvel" of the iPhone was the size of its battery. Treo's and Blackberry's were already there with the hardware. But the software. Apple's pretty good with software, so their implementation also made a difference.
Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by leptons on Sunday March 10, 2024 @01:25PM (#39660841)
The iPhone had a non-removable battery, which was a step backwards for consumers. And there was nothing special about it.

At the time I had an HTC TyTN 2 phone that did everything the iPhone could do and more, and had a removable battery, about the same size as the battery inside the iPhone 1. If you look at photos of the TyTN 2 battery, and the iPhone 1 battery, they are very close to the same size.

There was very little difference between those batteries. The TyTN 2 had a 1350mA hour lithium battery. The iPhone 1 had a 1400mA hour lithium battery. Practically no difference there in size or capacity.

So, no, the iPhone's battery was not a "technical marvel" any more than other phones of that era.

And in fact Apple's was a step back by being non-removable. I absolutely loved having a removable battery, because I could bring 2 or 3 with me on a long trip and never have to charge the phone. Apple was less functional in that way.

Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by fragmede on Sunday March 10, 2024 @05:08PM (#39662544)
I can't comment on the TyTN2, but I'm thinking back to Blackberry employees (CEO?) saying

> "The iPhone "couldn’t do what [Apple was] demonstrating without an insanely power hungry processor, it must have terrible battery life," Shacknews poster Kentor heard from his former colleagues of the time. "Imagine their surprise [at RIM] when they disassembled an iPhone for the first time and found that the phone was battery with a tiny logic board strapped to it."

https://www.redmondpie.com/blackberry-maker-rim-thought-appl...

Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by leptons on Monday March 11, 2024 @02:36AM (#39665410)
That's your rebuttal?? The engineers at blackberry were pretty inept and stuck in the past, which is why they're no longer in business. That article contributes nothing towards your claim that the first iPhone was a "technical marvel". I cited an example of a phone released in 2007 that had the same battery tech that Apple had. Was that also a "technical marvel"? And the model before it and the one before that? Apple didn't do anything groundbreaking in the first iPhone except maybe a capacitive touchscreen, which wasn't anything they invented, they were around long before the iphone.
Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by amluto on Saturday March 09, 2024 @10:58AM (#39652487)
> but you had to have business to afford it.

This was a marketing and perception issue, not a price issue. When the original iPhone came out, I had a very nice blackberry, with a personal plan, effectively unlimited data, and the full blackberry suite (minus corporate integration, obviously). And I think it was less expensive than the iPhone plan. But it was a pain in the neck! I had to pick the correct phone plan, add the correct data supplement, negotiate the correct discount (basically everyone was eligible for a discount, but you had to find your particular reason for being eligible in a ridiculous menu), and then convince the sales person to add the special $3.99/mo supplement for blackberry services. It clearly never occurred to anyone involved that this was not a competent way to sell to consumers!

I did make fun of my friends for paying several dollars more per month for a device with no keyboard, no GPS, slower data, less efficient text input, and dramatically worse performance in marginal network conditions.

When I finally switched to an iPhone 3G, I could do real in the browser, but wow, the ability to make phone calls was seriously downgraded. I feel like my old blackberry may have had the best behaved cellular modem of any smart device I’ve ever owned.

I think that, if RIM had gotten YouTube and a music player working, had improved the web browser, and stuck a capacitive touch sensor on their device, and if they had marketed it competently (make it so that customers could walk into a store, pay $55/mo, and walk away with a working device without a fight!), they might have remained competitive.

Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by mr_toad on Friday March 08, 2024 @11:19PM (#39649334)
Microsoft repeatedly tried to put Windows on a phone and it didn’t stick.

Apple didn’t bother, they used an entirely different UI from the start, and it was a UI aimed at everyone from kids to grandparents, not just tech people.

Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by chii on Saturday March 09, 2024 @01:23AM (#39649831)
> put Windows on a phone and it didn’t stick.

that's because they half assed it.

There's always the risk that mobile phones supersedes the desktop, and thus cannibalize the desktop windows sales. Microsoft also likely not able to force OEM licensing in the same way that they could with windows on PC sellers.

If you could literally run windows apps on a phone back then, i reckon the MS phones would've at least grabbed some marketshare. Of course, the mobile hardware back then isn't as powerful, so there's the excuse that win32 cannot run there.

Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by znpy on Friday March 08, 2024 @05:48PM (#39647446)
> Microsoft simply lacked the network effects

Microsoft execs had their heads buried too deep in their own asses to be able to understand what was needed at the time.

They pushed a platform (Windows phone) that lacked interesting features out of the box, lacked cloud services integration to fill the gap left by the lacking base features, and required Windows as a development platform (and, iirc, C# as well?). It didn't even have any particular windows-ecosystem speciality: no special exchange integration, no special windows pc integration, nothing. Microsoft could have exploited the same reasons they exploited with Azure, Office365 and the general enterprise: microsoft phones should just integrates perfectly with other microsoft stuff. It could have been the no-brainer choice: we use ActiveDirectory and Office365 as a suite, we'll get a Windows Phones as everything just works immediately. No, nobody had thought of that.

The value proposition was just not there.

So basically another walled garden, but dumber. And the hardware didn't have anything special to make it "worth".

Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by amluto on Friday March 08, 2024 @06:04PM (#39647599)
I think there’s more to it than this, and it’s subtle: The iPhone was cool.

Seriously, the original iPhone had little going for it technically. No GPS, poor data bandwidth, no apps, and minimal ability to make phone calls. (It took the combined efforts of Apple and AT&T a couple generations before you could reliably place a call.)

But it had a touch screen that felt nice, and you could watch videos and play music! The web browser actually performed well despite the low bandwidth. It could zoom. And Steve Jobs marketed it well, whereas Steve Ballmer was terrible at marketing.

IMO the iPhone was considerably worse for business use than Windows Mobile, and neither one held a candle to the BlackBerry. But it didn’t matter.

Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by musicale on Friday March 08, 2024 @08:16PM (#39648453)
> iPhone had little going for it technically. No GPS, poor data bandwidth, no apps, and minimal ability to make phone calls.

Things that apparently were not that important at launch. Apple did negotiate "unlimited" data plans with Cingular/AT&T.

> But it had a touch screen that felt nice, and you could watch videos and play music! The web browser actually performed well despite the low bandwidth

Better UI, better media playback, web browser that worked. Sounds like a classic example of Apple taking what is out there and simply doing it better.

Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by ethbr1 on Friday March 08, 2024 @06:56PM (#39647995)
> But it had a touch screen that felt nice, and you could watch videos and play music! The web browser actually performed well despite the low bandwidth.

Basically an observation that consumers were interested in digital media players, which Apple had some expertise in building (iPods, for younger folks).

And that a usable browser was a killer feature (most of the web not having reactive mobile sites, and no apps, then).

And if you combined all of the above with a cell phone, customers would rather carry 1 device than the 3 it previously took.

Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by NoobSaibot135 on Saturday March 09, 2024 @12:56PM (#39653453)
> And if you combined all of the above with a cell phone, customers would rather carry 1 device than the 3 it previously took.

And not coincidentally this is exactly how Jobs pitched the original iPhone unveil.

An iPod, a phone, an internet communicator, an iPod, a phone…

Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by smegger001 on Friday March 08, 2024 @06:41PM (#39647885)
>Steve Ballmer was terrible at marketing.

you could have just shortened that to "Steve Ballmer was terrible" and been more accurate.

Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by rsynnott on Saturday March 09, 2024 @06:05AM (#39650922)
Windows Phone (as opposed to Windows Mobile, which was basically moribund at the time the iPhone came out, and was replaced with the incompatible Windows Phone) wasn’t competing with the original iPhone; it came out shortly after the iPhone 4.

IMO the real problem with Windows Phone was the complete failure to produce an actual platform. Windows Phone 7 was incompatible with Windows Mobile, and _Windows Phone 8 was largely incompatible with Windows Phone 7_! The whole thing was comically developer hostile.

(Second mistake; Windows Phone 7’s UI ran at 30fps, presumably in an attempt to save battery. This made it feel a lot worse than iOS and Android.)

Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by lenkite on Friday March 08, 2024 @07:01PM (#39648021)
Microsoft failed because they weren't persistent enough. When you are the third entry in the market, you need to stay on the race and improve. Windows phone was profitable - $3.8 billion in a quarter using Lumias. But Nadella wanted to make Microsoft a cloud services company and leave the OS behind, so he axed the Phone.

Now, Apple is achieving per-eminance in the cross-device consumer OS market in the latop+tablet+smartphone space and Windows is slowly dying. Microsoft will just set to become yet another boring cloud services company.

Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by xnyan on Friday March 08, 2024 @09:09PM (#39648819)
> Apple is achieving per-eminance in the cross-device consumer OS market in the latop+tablet+smartphone

Only in the US and global high-end market. This is an extremely profitable market to be leading and I'm not trying to minimize Apple's achievement, but globally relatively few people use their phones and tablets, and ever fewer use their traditional computers.

Apple has a sizable lead, but I think the "idea" of what a smartphone is has been locked in essentially in the mind of consumers and their technological lead will only last so long as time passes. They are Microsoft but of smartphones and 20 years younger than windows desktop PCs. They know this, which is why they constantly make new things and try to develop new products (vr headsets, etc).

Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by fsflover on Saturday March 09, 2024 @05:37AM (#39650795)
There are also GNU/Linux phones. Sent from my Librem 5.
Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by A4ET8a8uTh0 on Saturday March 09, 2024 @08:41AM (#39651515)
Speaking of.. how is Librem these days as a daily driver? I am genuinely debating trying to make a jump again.
Re:Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account by fsflover on Saturday March 09, 2024 @08:53AM (#39651564)