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Re:Rainwater everywhere on the planet is unsafe to drink due... by pookha on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @08:46AM (#39524017)
I'll go out on a limb and say that 99% of the people buying "Glide" dental floss at COSTCO have NO IDEA that they're coated in toxins (PFAS) and if they pick up a gargantium bag of Cheerios for their kids they also probably aren't aware that those too are coated in Chlormequat chloride. Modern living.
Re:Rainwater everywhere on the planet is unsafe to drink due... by sva_ on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @09:10AM (#39524289)
> I'll go out on a limb and say that 99% of the people buying "Glide" dental floss at COSTCO have NO IDEA that they're coated in toxins (PFAS)

Thanks for making me aware of this. I've been trying to make a point of avoiding PFAS, but it seems to be everywhere.

> The study found that women who flossed with Oral-B Glide floss had higher levels of a chemical called perfluorohexane sulfonic acid (PFHxS) in their blood than women who didn’t use that type of floss.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/dental-fl...

Re:Rainwater everywhere on the planet is unsafe to drink due... by Workaccount2 on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @09:41AM (#39524672)
I've been in the same camp, mostly against BPA (and it's analogs) and PFAS. It's amazing how casually they are used in consumer products, even by brands who carry marketing that is nauseatingly "save-the-earth-happy-healthy-eating".

Another one is nitrites in processed meat. All the fancy "health conscious" brands proudly state "NO NITRITES!", but then those ass hats put in a bunch of celery salt...which is just nitrites with a different name.

Note: For anyone curious, trader joes actually does sell a bacon with no nitrites of any form. First and only time I have seen it.

Re:Rainwater everywhere on the planet is unsafe to drink due... by japanuspus on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @10:07AM (#39524963)
Comparing nitrites (which occur naturally) with PFAS and other "forever chemicals" is off the board. To my understanding the observed and very real ill-effects of toxic bacterial excretions due to nitrites being phased out in lunch-box products (sliced ham, salami) here in the EU far outweigh any possible effects of the nitrites. Source: reddit comments that seemed legit.
Re:Rainwater everywhere on the planet is unsafe to drink due... by BizarroLand on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @12:58PM (#39527197)
I would hazard to say that PFAs and microplastics are safer than lead and mercury but less safe than not having them at all, but only with the caveat that I believe there's got to be some sort of Zeno's Paradox correlation with environmental human health and safety.

To wit:

People used to do all sorts of self-harming things not knowing any better and now we do fewer of them.

The Romans used to sweeten their wines with powdered lead. The ancient Chinese alchemists used to make elixirs of immortality out of mercury compounds and feed them to their wealthy.

I'm not saying things are good now and that we shouldn't push for them to be better, not by any means.

Rather I am saying that as we take further steps towards optimal human health, aligning our common environmental encounters with our biology, we should remember that the effort people have put in to get us this far is only going to take us half as far the next time, and half again the time after.

And that is all well and good, progress is progress, right?

However, does it not seem like the smaller the flaw we find the more we get upset about it?

I believe this phenomenon is caused by a continuing delusion that we were once ever perfect, that we ever lived in harmony with nature, that there is some paradisian SI Garden of Eden unit we can measure our present environment against, and that the current state of events is the face of our fall from grace and must be destroyed like the monster it is.

I believe the truth is things have never been better in hundreds of ways, and they're going to keep getting better as we repent of our past mistakes and learn more about what mistakes we are still currently making, and that the world 25 years from now will be as different a world as the world of today is to the world of 1999.

Re:Rainwater everywhere on the planet is unsafe to drink due... by jddj on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @02:34PM (#39528613)
The secret, and it is a secret, is to understand everything that you've just written, and quietly let the machine worry on.

That collective handwringing (set in eternal struggle as it is with financial greed) is what got us here, and it's what will get us the next 50% and the 50% after that. Wink and enjoy the ride.

Re:Rainwater everywhere on the planet is unsafe to drink due... by salawat on Wednesday February 28, 2024 @12:14AM (#39534264)
...I'd like to think that we can do a bit better than that. The world could have done without things like Tetra-Ethyl-Lead, Thalidomide, and all the other fd things we've ended up with as a result of just letting the machine whirr on. We need to recognize that perverse incentives exist, the system is vulnerable to them, and as our technical prowess increases, the consequences of even one lapse are becoming larger and broader in scale beyond, in some cases, our ability to handle it by just winging it, and not* applying some level of precautionary principle.
Re:Rainwater everywhere on the planet is unsafe to drink due... by BizarroLand on Wednesday February 28, 2024 @12:14PM (#39540888)
Circle of control.

My personal ability to influence these things is so small compared to the vast swathes of the ignorant who just go with the flow of the mainstream.

Any energy I spend trying to influence things outside of my control is wasted.

Therefore, I will only endeavor to control that which I have the ability to control.

"God grant me the serenity", if you will.

Re:Rainwater everywhere on the planet is unsafe to drink due... by jddj on Wednesday February 28, 2024 @03:27PM (#39543058)
Wring on brother/sister. You're (100% genuinely) the future
Re:Rainwater everywhere on the planet is unsafe to drink due... by stronglikedan on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @11:33AM (#39526064)
J&J Reach floss is pfas-free, very cheap, and a pleasure to use.
Re:Rainwater everywhere on the planet is unsafe to drink due... by cyounkins on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @10:15PM (#39533529)
I tried a few PFAS-free dental flosses that were horrible. I settled on Reach Waxed - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005IHMXEQ
Re:Rainwater everywhere on the planet is unsafe to drink due... by wodenokoto on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @08:58AM (#39524148)
> Cheerios for their kids they also probably aren't aware that those too are coated in Chlormequat chloride.

From Wikipedia:

> Chlormequat has not previously been registered for use on food crops in the United States. In April 2023, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency proposed allowing the use of the chemical on food crops such as barley, oat, triticale, and wheat. The EPA’s human health risk assessment indicated "no dietary, residential, or aggregate (i.e., combined dietary and residential exposures) risks of concern." No risks were identified by EPA to aquatic species of invertebrates, vertebrates, and plants in addition to terrestrial plants.

So probably not coated in it.

Re:Rainwater everywhere on the planet is unsafe to drink due... by 34679 on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @09:18AM (#39524385)
They're probably referring to the following study:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41370-024-00643-4

"Chlormequat was detected at low concentrations in samples from 2017 through 2022, with a significant increase in concentrations for samples from 2023. We also observed high detection frequencies of chlormequat in oat-based foods. These findings and chlormequat toxicity data raise concerns about current exposure levels, and warrant more expansive toxicity testing, food monitoring, and epidemiological studies to assess health effects of chlormequat exposures in humans."

...

"Despite being approved for use on crops in Europe and parts of North America, chlormequat exhibits concerning toxicological properties, as documented in historical as well as more recently published laboratory animal studies. In the early 1980s, the impacts of chlormequat exposure on reproductive toxicity and fertility were first described by Danish pig farmers who observed reproductive declines in pigs raised on chlormequat treated grains [4]. These observations were later investigated in controlled laboratory experiments on pigs and mice, whereby female pigs fed chlormequat treated grain exhibited disrupted oestrus cycling and difficulty mating compared to animals on a control chlormequat-free diet [4]. Additionally, male mice exposed to chlormequat via diet or drinking water during development exhibited decreased fertilization capacity of sperm in vitro [5]. More recent reproductive toxicity studies on chlormequat show delayed onset of puberty, reduced sperm motility, decreased weights of male reproductive organs, and decreased testosterone levels in rats exposed during sensitive windows of development, including during pregnancy and early life [6,7,8]. Developmental toxicity studies also suggest that chlormequat exposure during pregnancy can dysregulate fetal growth and metabolism [9]. Other investigations did not find impacts of chlormequat on reproduction in female mice, male pigs, or a subsequent investigation of fertilization capacity in male mice developmentally and postnatally exposed to chlormequat [4, 10, 11]. Equivocal evidence in the toxicological literature on chlormequat may be due to differences in doses tested and outcomes measured as well as selection of model organism and the sex of laboratory animals. Consequently, further investigation is warranted."

Re:Rainwater everywhere on the planet is unsafe to drink due... by brandon272 on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @09:09AM (#39524267)
Are the Cheerios slathered in Chlormequat?
Re:Rainwater everywhere on the planet is unsafe to drink due... by germinalphrase on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @09:39AM (#39524643)
That phrasing suggests that Cheerios are intentionally coated with Chlormequat which doesn't appear to be the case. Instead, tthe grains used to manufacture Cheerios are treated with Chlormequat (though, arguably, any food product utilizing those grains would have the same issue, I'd assume). Might not make anyone feel any better, but different issue.
Re:Rainwater everywhere on the planet is unsafe to drink due... by bassrattle on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @01:33PM (#39527692)
potato potato, literally the same thing
Re:Rainwater everywhere on the planet is unsafe to drink due... by demondemidi on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @09:08AM (#39524263)
I don’t know about you but that doesn’t make me feel any better.
Re:Rainwater everywhere on the planet is unsafe to drink due... by doo_daa on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @11:38AM (#39526141)
This might make you feel better... https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/pesticide-in-oat-products-s...

... unless you regularly eat more than 85,000 tons of oats.

Re:Rainwater everywhere on the planet is unsafe to drink due... by demondemidi on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @10:01PM (#39533426)
> unless you regularly eat more than 85,000 tons of oats.

Between muesli in the summer and oatmeal in the winter I'm averaging close to that, but I exercise a lot so I got that going for me.

Re:Rainwater everywhere on the planet is unsafe to drink due... by fnordpiglet on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @11:33AM (#39526068)
Except this isn’t true. It’s made of PTFE, which hasn’t been made with a PFA process in 15 years and is itself one of the most non reactive substances known unless you heat it to very high temperatures.
Re:Rainwater everywhere on the planet is unsafe to drink due... by estiaan on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @11:42AM (#39526193)
It’s not clear which part of the comment you meant when you said it’s not true, but PTFE is a PFAS, exactly how toxic it is or isn’t I don’t think is well known yet but people have been living with PTFE implants.
Re:Rainwater everywhere on the planet is unsafe to drink due... by fnordpiglet on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @11:51AM (#39526309)
The toxicity of Glide. PFAS is a very broad class of chemicals. The toxic PFAS associated with PTFEs are PFOA and PFOS, both of which were phased out in production in the 2010s.

Whenever this topic of Glide being toxic comes up they cite this article :

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/dental-fl...

Which is written based off this study:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41370-018-0109-y

Which is based off blood samples drawn in 2010-2013, which is at the time PFOA was being phased out of the PTFE production process due to lawsuits around the PFOA toxicity, which DuPont was aware of. The new process using GenX (seriously), which is known to cause problems too but at a lesser extreme than PFOA. However the issue with PTFE was with the residuals of PFOA which you don’t find in commercial PTFE for GenX.

And yes, PTFE is widely used in medical implants and devices.

Re:Rainwater everywhere on the planet is unsafe to drink due... by thriftwy on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @11:37AM (#39526122)
Non-reactive usually implies forever chemical.
Re:Rainwater everywhere on the planet is unsafe to drink due... by fnordpiglet on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @11:58AM (#39526391)
The entire right side of the periodic table is composed exclusively of forever chemicals by this definition.

Non-reactive also means doesn’t interact chemically with other chemicals, which is a desirable thing in a plastic that might be ingested. While maybe not awesome that it sits in silt not reacting to the end of time, if it also doesn’t react with anything in your body, it’s safe to take into your body, no?

The problem with some PFAS is they don’t readily degrade but they’re biologically reactive and interact with the bodies chemistry. That’s not a great feature. But it’s a huge class of chemicals, all of which are chemicals stable due to their carbon fluorine bonds - one of the most stable bonds in nature. But that doesn’t mean they can’t react in ways that don’t break the molecule apart, or form other chemicals that maintain the integrity of the C-F bond.

But it also doesn’t mean that they DO react.

Life isn’t so simple it can be reduced to a mantra like “plastic bad” or whatever. PTFE has a lot of very useful characteristics, and its lack of reactivity in the body isn’t the least of them.

Re:Rainwater everywhere on the planet is unsafe to drink due... by kgc on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @11:58PM (#39534174)
If it doesn’t react with anything in your body, how would your body clear an accumulation of it?
Re:Rainwater everywhere on the planet is unsafe to drink due... by aqfamnzc on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @11:14AM (#39525798)
How am I supposed to keep track of things like this? Between all the chemicals, boycotts, etc etc etc I don't know how I'm supposed to use any modern product again. (Or primitive product, for that matter.) It's honestly driven me to apathy. I just don't have the bandwidth to worry about it.
Re:Rainwater everywhere on the planet is unsafe to drink due... by toomim on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @12:03PM (#39526456)
I just take some sheets of aluminum foil, fold them into a hat, and then jump inside and hide from the world.
Re:Rainwater everywhere on the planet is unsafe to drink due... by 7thaccount on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @11:17AM (#39525839)
Make all your own food. Even then, the crops are all loaded with Roundup and who knows what all else.
Re:Rainwater everywhere on the planet is unsafe to drink due... by nickd2001 on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @11:35AM (#39526089)
A high-fibre diet is supposed to help, as fibre can absorb toxins. To what extent I don't know. So, make your own sourdough wholewheat bread. And eat plenty of greens like broccoli, cabbage . I guess the greens are sprayed with stuff too though. As is the wheat in the bread. The fibre might counteract the effects of the sprays somewhat.
Re:Rainwater everywhere on the planet is unsafe to drink due... by infecto on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @12:39PM (#39526936)
Greens I believe absorb more heavy metals.
Re:Rainwater everywhere on the planet is unsafe to drink due... by Arrath on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @06:43PM (#39531827)
Haven't some studies found that donating plasma helps scrub your blood?
Re:Rainwater everywhere on the planet is unsafe to drink due... by nipponese on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @11:23AM (#39525931)
Don’t forget about all the dihydrogen monoxide in everything these days.

/s

Re:Rainwater everywhere on the planet is unsafe to drink due... by tmaly on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @12:41PM (#39526953)
Can you recommend a brand of floss that is not coated in toxins?
Re:Rainwater everywhere on the planet is unsafe to drink due... by stephenbez on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @03:51PM (#39529748)
I like Radius Sponge Floss and switched to it after I heard about the issues with Glide.