We do this all the time. I don’t uniquely depend on Microsoft for stuff that runs on Windows. Same for stuff that runs on macOS. And on Linux I’m not even sure who I’m trusting from the ground up other than a huge and disparate collection of people.
So what makes iOS so unique that it can’t run PWAs, which is little more than adding some chrome and a handful of APIs to already pre-existing browser capabilities.
What an F’ing joke. And the bigger joke are the Apple fans who are going out of their way to defend Apple sticking it up their nether parts.
This seems to be over-generalization? Users are using Apple devices because those are good products, not because they want to delegate every single trust problem to the Apple ecosystem. That might be a great proposition for people like you, but there is a significant number of people who consider it a compromise rather than a value.
As a long time user of Windows which historically had an incomparably large amount of security incidents, I can assure you that Apple won't get blamed that much for 3rd party data breach unless it involves Apple's own service and user data.
I’m talking about the general public. If a story about a data breach in a 3rd party app — affecting iOS users — hits the news cycle, Apple will take the blame and their brand reputation and sales will be impacted. It doesn’t matter whose fault it really is, Apple is the face of the iPhone and through their walled garden they have accepted final responsibility for everything that occurs on iOS.
You can draw a direct line between Apple’s original marketing pitch (easy to use, simple, secure, appliance-style computing) and the iOS walled garden. Just as you can with Disney and their family-oriented brand. It’s not a compelling argument to say that other film studios have nudity in their films when Disney is the brand at issue.
They didn't take security seriously when they were laying down the architecture for Windows because they didn't think they had to. Apple is taking the exact opposite approach. They're fairly obsessed with security and privacy because that's one of the big selling points for the whole iOS ecosystem. They miss things because they (like us) live in the real world but they do pay a lot of attention to it and the number of updates for things like 0day defects that arrive within days of the defects being reported tells me that this continues to this day.
Apple doesn't have a monopoly. Per https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/worldwide Android has twice the market share that iOS has. The reason for all of this generated drama is found in https://www.businessofapps.com/data/app-revenues/. The key bullet points are:
"App Revenue Key Statistics
* Mobile ad spend in 2022 reached $362 billion, a 7.7% increase on the previous year * Android and iOS app consumer spending increased to $135 billion in 2023 * iOS was responsible for 66% of app consumer spending in 2023 * Games accounted for 60% of consumer app spending in 2023. Google Play contributed 41% of the total amount * Subscription revenues increased to $45.6 billion in 2023, iOS was responsible for 76% of that revenue"
The real reason for all this foolishness can be found in these bullet points. 66% of $135 billion is $89.1 billion, and lots of people would love to get a piece of that pie without dealing with Apple (who built and owns the stack). It isn't a monopoly, though, and all of that monopoly talk is misdirection.
I suspect that from Apple's perspective, it is definitively not a significant number.
For Apple, ownership of the "trust problem" is an intrinsic part of "making good products".
Yes, this might be true. And the majority of elected officials in EU fundamentally disagrees with that statement.
Well, EU can and will force, fine, or ban US companies as they see fit but there is not some fundamental correctness to their viewpoint
Indeed, who apple is or isn't able to sell to, doesn't affect what people think is moral or immoral.
As for Apple's CEO representing Apple's customers: Are you sure? We didn't elect him. We just bought stuff made by an organization he currently runs.
I'm saying that customers decide whether or not to buy from Apple based on whether they resonate with them from a moral standpoint, at least as part of their decision to purchase their products. And I said Apple's CEO is accountable to their customers, not that they represent them. Yes, they're also accountable to shareholders, as your sibling comment points out. But if the company screws up enough to elicit a popular boycott, you can bet the reason shareholders will be exercising that accountability is due to the actions of the customer base.
> I'm saying that customers decide whether or not to buy from Apple based on whether they resonate with them from a moral standpoint
I fully believe that you might do that yourself. There's no evidence everyone else does, or even that a majority do. Especially since most people aren't informed of working conditions involved in manufacturing Apple products (or indeed, many others' products).
It's just not believable that everyone thinks that buying a product = agreeing with every single moral stance made by the person currently running the company. And what if he changed his mind tomorrow? Would he offer a full refund to everybody who asked for one?
> And I said Apple's CEO is accountable to their customers, not that they represent them.
He's not accountable to them, only to the board*, but we're discussing representation - that is, speaking on behalf of a people, according to those people, not you or I or the speaker individually. If you mentioned accountability while we were on the topic of representation, and I returned us to the topic of representation, you're welcome :)
[*]: Your example illustrates this: a complex chain of accountability from CEO to Corporation and BoD to Corporation and Corporation to shareholders is required for any action to happen. Being accountable to customers means customers can decide to fire him _directly_.
Because they are interrelated concepts. Without accountability you can’t be trusted to faithfully represent someone. “Representation” without accountability is autocracy.
Also, chill with the condescension.
In this case, though, the CEO is not accountable to customers, and the CEO does not represent customers, so not too confusing. He is accountable to the BoD (nobody else can fire him) and represents the corporation. The interests of other parties, including customers, are secondary to, and when opposed lose to, the interests of the corporation.
It has control over the people living in China, true, but I do not think controlling a person, being able to put them in jail if they don't obey you, is the same thing as representing them.
Politicians aren't expected to be experts due to the immense breadth of subjects they need to consider - they're expected to consult experts. Whether an individual politician is an expert[1] is pretty irrelevant.
All of these statements are about our general expectations of politicians - whether you think politicians adhere to that point or have comments on specific politicians is beside the scope of my comment. As a less controversial example it might be good to instead consider how judges operate who are expected to provide well reasoned judgements on subjects they know nothing about.
1. Sometimes those former expert politicians are the worst of all since they _think_ they know the way things are and won't listen to actual experts but they've been out of the industry so long that they've lost their familiarity with the subject.
That didn't go hilariously wrong, though - the internet is a series of tubes. Not physically (copper cables aren't tubes) but he obviously wasn't talking about specific stuff but broad-strokes analogy (his exact line was "It's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes."), and his description was basically accurate.
People don’t think of it that way, they tell themselves all the reasons why that’s a good thing, but that’s ultimately what it is - a legislative solution to end the “android vs iOS” debate for all time.
The argument is walled gardens shouldn’t exist, so the solution is to either legislate requirements that apple destroy the walls, or that they exit the market. That is a statement that most android advocates would agree with.
And the EU will largely just keep ratcheting up the legislation until that happens. Driving apple out is the point - walled gardens are (in the EU sense) unacceptable and the option for a walled-garden business model needs to be removed from the market.
Apple is (correctly) perceiving this and pulling out of the market, first by dropping the affected features, and I’m sure there will be a “next compliance requirement” before many years too.
1. Still hoping to see something amazing RIM!
That'd be "corporate freedom" rather than "end user freedom" yeah?
That's my impression of what the NA model of freedom seems to mean these days.
This actively reduces freedom, the freedom of running your business. You just don't care about it.
If you don't like walled gardens you can just not use them (I certainly never bought anything Apple for this very reason), there's no need to infringe on the freedom of everyone else who wants to use walled gardens.
The EU is in general becoming increasingly less free, thanks to barely elected bureaucrats who line up their pockets with sponsors money.
1. I'd point to a great example from one of our current justices in this regard: https://www.theguardian.com/law/2017/mar/23/neil-gorsuch-sup...
No-one's forcing Apple customers to go outside the walled garden. They can still source their apps from only the Apple App Store.
That's not just an EU problem though. It seems to be well established (and perhaps worse?) in many places.
Companies are designed and allowed, by characters, to operate within the scope of whats good for society. If it harms the public good then it needs to be reigned in. I have no illusions that companies have the same standing and rights as living beings do. They are lifeless entities meant to be subject to the will of people.
In the same way Right to Repair, Minimum Wage, and Disciminatory hiring affects the freedom of running a business, sure. Unfortunately, rules are written in blood and this is happening because other businesses at this point abused the point of labor or customer satisfaction and needed to get dinged for it.
In this case, Blame Microsoft, I guess. Heck, even Google. we already know the result of a closed system abusing its platform and large share to make its product worse. I'm glad we're actually jumping into this before it's too late (like we usually do).
if someone wants to sell systems where the only supported configuration is SELinux, why should that be illegal?
For general populace good also include secure by default.
"every single trust problem to the Apple ecosystem." is rather technical point that very few people would even understand meaning of it.
> significant number of people who consider it a compromise
How significant compare to iPhone user base?
Apple has no interest in working with public institutions that have a close relationship with the people they serve. That's a big red flag in my book. You cant trust a company that serves content and hardware and at the same time trust them with security. It's too many eggs in one basket, to easy of a target for rogue entities (NSA) even if they have good motives .
I don't hate Apple, but rather realise that it's bottom line and fiduciary duty to its shareholders is stronger than what is best for us (consumers/developers).
I do not trust the corporate marketing one bit (and honestly, why should I?).
This behaviour of Apple just further supports that view. As a company, it seems to believe it is somehow above following the rules meant to benefit consumers/developers, something the conpany has been marketing its self with since the 80's.
So lets stop the 'Leave Apple alone (and us that work there)' crying, and just acknowledge what the whole thing revolves around.
Seems like they hate us (developers) back though so it’s a mutual relationship I suppose.
Have you seen the world around you for the past 20 years or so? I'd say this characterises developers (well, companies they work for at least) quite well, don't you think?
But there are some trying to scam you…and some of those are also in the App Store…as long as they use IAP to scam you all is well.
What Apple and some users here are saying that users don't have intelligence to judge it and so will have to trust only Apple.
Trusting Apple is nice in the US where it's probably a net contributor to the country's development. Elsewhere, not so.