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Re:The Perverse Policies That Fuel Wildfires by DiscourseFan on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @03:51PM (#39280399)
Is there a way to build permanent housing in parts of California that are prone to fires even with controlled burns? Even controlled fires pose a risk to habitation; if you were a semi-nomadic tribe (like the former residents before Americans brought western "Reason" and domestication to the west coast), you could move everyone out of the area to be burned, and then come back X many months/years later when wildlife and vegetation returned.

If, on the other hand, the area to be burned has "invested capital" and houses and land on it--essentially, private property, which has this strange quality of fixity even in the face of something as destructive as the earth (which never fails to dissolve it), how would you guarantee, without incredibly high insurance premiums, that people's houses wouldn't burn down.

And even if people are willing to pay the premiums, they would do so knowing that the government might decide, almost randomly (to them), to burn a chunk of forest right next to their house. They'd get fair warning, sure, but who wants to own a house that might burn down in 10 years because the state decides that its too much of a risk to have that patch of land burn naturally?

Re:The Perverse Policies That Fuel Wildfires by Arrath on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @04:33PM (#39280970)
> Is there a way to build permanent housing in parts of California that are prone to fires even with controlled burns?

Absolutely. A good starting point is to look to Australia's regulations for construction materials, methods, water storage and setback/firebreak requirements, etc. for fire safety in bushfire prone areas.

While it may be picturesque to have your house or cabin nestled in amongst the forest, your fire survivability is Zero.

Re:The Perverse Policies That Fuel Wildfires by EdwardDiego on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @04:52PM (#39281213)
The fact that people can go build a house in the middle of bush that's renowned, sometimes even evolved for, for fire, strikes me as nuts.

Especially when volunteer firefighters then have to risk their lives to save people with the lovely view. (Ditto California...)

Re:The Perverse Policies That Fuel Wildfires by mtnGoat on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @05:26PM (#39281671)
I don’t know anyone working on wildfires in the United States for free. Not saying there is no risk, but they are paid and understand the risks. Some nice neighbors have their own contract fire crews, which are not cheap.
Re:The Perverse Policies That Fuel Wildfires by Quarrel on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @06:19PM (#39282260)
In Australia, "most" rural firefighters are volunteers, but have equipment and training providing by their local Government run rural fireservice (that has fulltime paid administrators).

The population density between Australia and the US is radically different though which changes the dynamic (deserts and marginal land exist in both, but Australia is particularly water challenged with no high mountains, so no major rivers).

Re:The Perverse Policies That Fuel Wildfires by blackguardx on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @06:57PM (#39282664)
I know folks that are volunteer wildfire firefighters in Colorado and in California they were enlisting prisoners and paying them very low wages.
Re:The Perverse Policies That Fuel Wildfires by EdwardDiego on Wednesday February 07, 2024 @01:46PM (#39292509)
Fun fact, NZ and Australian volunteer rural fire-fighters often fly in to help out with bad fire seasons in California. It's good practice.
Re:The Perverse Policies That Fuel Wildfires by mistrial9 on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @10:12PM (#39284003)
this happened with some East Coast settlers moving to California after 1870 or so.. many areas known for fire now were the sites of fine home building with expensive techniques and materials, plus the lower quality homes or whatever. English speaking people apparently did not get the memo?
Re:The Perverse Policies That Fuel Wildfires by taneq on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @04:39PM (#39281044)
Even so, we lose plenty of houses because people want to live ‘out in the bush’ but don’t want to do all of these things.
Re:The Perverse Policies That Fuel Wildfires by Arrath on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @04:42PM (#39281082)
Oh its certainly not foolproof, but better than what we usually do here in the states.
Re:The Perverse Policies That Fuel Wildfires by taneq on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @05:05PM (#39281392)
Yeah, hopefully the forestry people over there realise that hazard reduction burns aren’t optional if you’re gonna build houses in the forest and then expect it to not burn down.
Re:The Perverse Policies That Fuel Wildfires by toast0 on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @05:01PM (#39281345)
I live in a wooded area in Washington state, and I'm not too worried about my buildings, because I have a relatively huge clearing around my house and garage. And I don't live in my outbuilding that's kind of too close to the forest. But I'd still need to evacuate, somehow, if there were a forest fire. The smoke would be dangerous, I imagine utility power would be lost, and my generator is actually a couple trees into the woods.

Insurance companies could presumably do inspections of clearings and cancel or charge more if you don't have sufficient clearing, but municipalities aren't going to like the tree cutting that results.

Re:The Perverse Policies That Fuel Wildfires by dredmorbius on Wednesday February 07, 2024 @10:00AM (#39289354)
What's hard to appreciate about wildfire is just how horrific conditions can be.

Yes, defensible space helps, but temperatures can exceed 1,000 to 2,000 F / 500 -- 1,000 C. Sustained exposure to that can damage all kinds of materials, let alone be difficult to survive. Even at considerable distance the radiant heat of even a smaller wildfire is quite palpable, something I've had personal experience of.

The fire will also reduce or remove available oxygen, there can be tornadic-ferocity winds (and what the winds blow), embers, and all manner of other threats.

Smoke is only one of your worries.

Re:The Perverse Policies That Fuel Wildfires by devilbunny on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @05:25PM (#39281649)
Build it out of concrete blocks with a metal roof. The contents are almost certainly flammable, but the structure isn’t.
Re:The Perverse Policies That Fuel Wildfires by PeterisP on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @07:59PM (#39283131)
Does it really make a difference if after the fire the burnt-out structure is still standing with the dead owners in it?
Re:The Perverse Policies That Fuel Wildfires by lazide on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @10:02PM (#39283945)
Metal shutters, and the owners would be fine.

Sprinklers on the roof work pretty well too.

Re:The Perverse Policies That Fuel Wildfires by idiotsecant on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @11:10PM (#39284399)
I'm not sure the conditions in the middle of a wildfire are conducive to continued breathing.
Re:The Perverse Policies That Fuel Wildfires by lazide on Wednesday February 07, 2024 @11:55AM (#39290922)
Assuming the windows are closed and any outside ventilation is turned off, there would be zero issues inside the house for the length of time required.

That said, sitting around in an active wildfire is a bad idea compared to not being there.

The biggest issue is usually fuel close to the structure (bushes or trees right next to the house), or openings in the structure like eaves. Rooftop sprinklers work decently well for wooden roofs, but it's more complicated than just installing them due to potential water pressure issues. Metal roofs shouldn't need them.

All it takes is a small hole in the armor though sometimes, and without someone there to watch it and fight it, it takes a big change in building styles to be 100% sure. Like cement structure + metal framing & roofing + minimal combustible furniture, etc.

The biggest issue IMO is that western style (really central european/north western european) construction tends to focus on greenery, windows, wood and natural materials, etc.

Spanish-Colonial style construction is better suited to these kinds of conditions, with some modifications (avoiding exposed beams, and dealing with earthquakes both major necessary changes).

[https://firesafemarin.org/articles/should-i-put-a-sprinkler-...]

Re:The Perverse Policies That Fuel Wildfires by idiotsecant on Thursday February 08, 2024 @04:37PM (#39308084)
Houses are not airtight, even the absolute best, newest ones. The average house has a lot of air exchange with the outside world. It would not take long to be quite dead in the middle of a wildfire.
Re:The Perverse Policies That Fuel Wildfires by lazide on Thursday February 08, 2024 @08:17PM (#39310191)
Wildfires tend to move fast. Active fire in the vicinity of a home for even an hour is very unusual.

As long as fuel is kept a decent distance and the house is closed up (and doesn't catch on fire), you'd be fine. SCBA would make sure you didn't get any red eyes from the little smoke that would get in.

If you have bushes and trees right up against the structure (or are in a tinder dry forest in a fully involved canopy fire), then you're having a different kind of party of course.

Re:The Perverse Policies That Fuel Wildfires by devilbunny on Thursday February 08, 2024 @05:21PM (#39308589)
If you live somewhere that the risk of being overtaken by a wildfire is not more or less zero, buying a firefighter's SCBA regulator and tank is not a horrible idea.
Re:The Perverse Policies That Fuel Wildfires by devilbunny on Thursday February 08, 2024 @08:23AM (#39301631)
I’m assuming the occupants have enough wit to leave when wildfires threaten.
Re:The Perverse Policies That Fuel Wildfires by scheme271 on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @11:25PM (#39284485)
Concrete tends to get weakened by fire. So even if the concrete doesn't burn, the home may need to be rebuilt because the concrete has been dangerously weakened by the fire. Stone and brick can also be damaged by fire. They are more resistant to fire but in a really hot fire, they may not be resistant enough.