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Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by beardyw on Sunday January 28, 2024 @03:29AM (#39163570)
Is it theft?
Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by apetersson on Sunday January 28, 2024 @03:59AM (#39163739)
I suppose not. If my neighbour has a water sprinkler, it's not theft if I put a tree where it spills on my property. It's rather debatable if the strong electric fields are a disturbance to the environment and the power company should be obligated to insulate better, potentially leading to higher transmission efficiency.
Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by greyface- on Sunday January 28, 2024 @04:32AM (#39163956)
What if your neighbor has a water sprinkler that is watering their own lawn, adjacent to yours, initially with no spillage, and you install a big array of fans on your property to induce air currents that cause it to start spilling over onto yours?
Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by arwineap on Sunday January 28, 2024 @04:44AM (#39164025)
What would the fan be in this case?

I'm feeling like the initial analogy fit the premise better.

Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by greyface- on Sunday January 28, 2024 @04:48AM (#39164044)
The fan is analogous to the antenna - it changes the RF landscape, such that a small amount of energy that would otherwise have stayed in the transmission line begins to flow into the antenna, similar to how the fan changes the air current landscape.
Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by cjdell on Sunday January 28, 2024 @06:55AM (#39164812)
Is this similar to "transformer action"?
Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by batch12 on Sunday January 28, 2024 @11:00AM (#39166926)
Wouldn't this be the same or greater if the fence is grounded?
Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by arwineap on Sunday January 28, 2024 @09:58PM (#39172234)
Would this still be the case if the power lines were properly isolated?

It feels a lot like spillage to me, antenna or not, but I admit my emf is weak

Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by littlestymaar on Sunday January 28, 2024 @04:50AM (#39164057)
From a physics perspective, the initial analogy doesn't hold at all though.

The antenna array is actually distorting the electromagnetic field and whatever is plugged to it is actively draining power from the power line. If there's no antenna the power line lose no energy through the field[1], it's not as if you were collecting lost power.

[1] in fact, you can even say that the energy is not carried in the cables themselves but in the air surrounding the cables!

Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by arwineap on Sunday January 28, 2024 @09:59PM (#39172239)
Would that be the case if the power lines were properly isolated?
Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by littlestymaar on Monday January 29, 2024 @07:32AM (#39175506)
Define “properly isolated”. From the electric current perspective, the cables are properly insulated, and the insulating material is air. But here what's at stake is electromagnetic (EM) waves generated by the oscillating current flowing throw the cables, and while EM shields can reduce these I'm not sure it would even be possible to shield an entire cable in order to contain the field, and even if it was theoretically possible, it's almost certain that it wouldn't be realistic at the scale of a power grid.
Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by BehindBlueEyes on Monday January 29, 2024 @11:10AM (#39177941)
The tree will grow roots to tap water closer to the source, ignoring property lines. I don't think fans are needed for the analogy to work.
Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by littlestymaar on Sunday January 28, 2024 @04:45AM (#39164026)
> If my neighbour has a water sprinkler, it's not theft if I put a tree where it spills on my property

From a physics perspective It's not the same thing at all: with the water sprinkler, the water is lost no matter what for your neighbors. But with the electric field, there's no power loss unless you tap into it.

To get back to your water sprinkler example, it's as if your neighbors' hosepipe got trough your garden to get to his sprinkler: you can argue that this is a environmental disturbance to your garden, but that doesn't allow you to take water from the hosepipe for your own use.

Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by shrubble on Sunday January 28, 2024 @04:01AM (#39163752)
It depends, if it is considered radiation then it is "landing" on your property; so you have the right to use it, same as the radio frequencies that pass by you are legal to listen in on, such as AM or FM radio...
Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by advisedwang on Sunday January 28, 2024 @07:00AM (#39164852)
It isn't the same at a technical level though. AM/FM is "far field" where you are many wavelengths away and are truly emitting radiation. This is "near field" where you are with a wavelength and are coupled with the source. This is actually drawing power.
Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by jacquesm on Sunday January 28, 2024 @04:04AM (#39163768)
Yes.
Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by DamonHD on Sunday January 28, 2024 @03:32AM (#39163583)
Probably, in some cases/jurisdictions.
Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by beardyw on Sunday January 28, 2024 @03:37AM (#39163615)
But technically do you think this adversely effects the electricity company? If not, it's just overspill.
Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by userbinator on Sunday January 28, 2024 @03:52AM (#39163700)
I'm not an RF expert, but I believe this is a matter of near field vs far field.

In far field (like typical radio broadcasts), there's no "coupling" between the transmitter and receiver so the former just radiates its power and cannot distinguish whether it's being received.

In near field (RFID etc.), there is a coupling and the transmitter can definitely tell whether a receiver is present and absorbing the power.

Thus, and IANAL either, but IMHO harvesting from the near field definitely seems more like stealing, while the far field doesn't; is it stealing to effectively recover "waste energy" that would otherwise just be dissipated uselessly, and wouldn't cause any measurable increase in consumption from the power company?

Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by lukan on Sunday January 28, 2024 @04:22AM (#39163879)
Since they operated directly under the wires, I think this is clearly a near field.

Generating power from far fields does not seem likely to get any meaningful yield. I remember my father showing me how to build a passive radio receiver using a strong sender nearby and it worked. No other power source involved but you could listen to the (weak) output. So in theory possible, but not really useful.

Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by DamonHD on Sunday January 28, 2024 @01:05PM (#39168129)
The earliest radio receivers that I built as a kid were entirely passive, eg a tuned circuit and a diode, and the captured energy was enough to drive a ('crystal') earpiece. I was many many (tens/hundreds of) miles from the transmitters.
Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by jacquesm on Sunday January 28, 2024 @04:10AM (#39163793)
This is exactly it. If you were to do this 'at scale' you'd end up having to generate more electricity to compensate for the losses, so it's clearly theft. Whether your grid coupling uses a capacitor or an inductor isn't relevant, clearly you are taking energy from the grid and is the thing that matters.
Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by DamonHD on Sunday January 28, 2024 @01:08PM (#39168168)
Indeed, and thus I stand by my original point, though downvoted!

The UK Wireless Telegraphy Acts made it illegal to listen to something that you weren't meant to by fiat without need of any proof of harm AFAIK, so there could easily be random laws in various places outlawing this extraction of power that has to be made up by other generation, even if small.

You generally aren't allowed to extract even small amounts of power from the system unmetered with a wire either, without specific permission.

Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by lukan on Sunday January 28, 2024 @03:40AM (#39163633)
One of the comments says, it does effect the electric company (why shouldn't it, energy does not come out of nowhere) and they can meassure it.

"Velemu says: There was one case in Finland in The 90s, where someone did this to power their summer cottage. When Power company found, where the extra parasitic load came from, they sued the guy to hell and back again. This kind of load is actually actively measured by Power companies, since it is also used to find other failure modes on powerlines, and is easy to detect. Just don’t do it…."

Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by card_zero on Sunday January 28, 2024 @04:29AM (#39163932)
Tim Hunkin's cartoon encyclopedia (from the 80s) mentions a conviction in Canada. https://www.rudimentsofwisdom.com/pages/power%20lines.htm
Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by nickcotter on Sunday January 28, 2024 @04:40AM (#39163992)
Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by 15457345234 on Sunday January 28, 2024 @04:51AM (#39164062)
I think the main reason the electricity companies discourage this is the hazard it presents. The 'collector' is basically a current transformer, which means:

1. If the outputs of the 'collector' go open circuit (because the rectifier/capacitor/whatever dies) the voltage at those terminals is going to rise theoretically towards infinity - insulation breakdown and discharge will occur which is likely to result in a fire.

2. The current generated by the 'collector' is going to be proportional to the transmission line current; if a ground fault occurs on the line the current in the collector winding is going to spike up to some silly level; that will probably result destruction of whatever is connected to the collector outputs and subsequently a fire.

Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by shagie on Sunday January 28, 2024 @10:10AM (#39166463)
Imagine the alternate history political and legal mess if PG&E had found such a setup in proximity to the start of the fires back in '21 and '22.
Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by jacquesm on Sunday January 28, 2024 @02:07PM (#39168791)
Technically, yes it does adversely affect the electricity company. It's not 'just overspill', that's how electricity moves from one place to another.
Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by thsksbd on Sunday January 28, 2024 @04:32AM (#39163957)
If you unscramble the tv signal entering your home are you stealing?

Also this is taking. This isn't power the gris would have lost anyway, you're coupling it on purpose increasing the leakage

Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by thsksbd on Sunday January 28, 2024 @12:06PM (#39167615)
To be clear I don't think unscrambling a TV signal is theft, Im just pointing out that it is a matter of law. The Tv provider didnt loos anything.

The grid provider, however, did loose something, namely they have to burn more fossil fuels to overcome the increased resistance on the line.

Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by Thri4895o on Sunday January 28, 2024 @04:55AM (#39164077)
It is. Energy drain through induction, depends on conductivity of environment. By putting cables there, you increase energy loss on main line.
Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by TT-392 on Sunday January 28, 2024 @08:40AM (#39165622)
The same goes if the fence is there and grounded though?
Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by bradfa on Sunday January 28, 2024 @10:43AM (#39166763)
I believe the intent matters. If you need a fence and you’re not trying to use the electricity then it is not theft. If your intent is to consume the power then it is theft.

Doing this kind of power harvesting off transmission lines is a standard Electric Power university course exam question for intro to transmission lines courses.

Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by 127361 on Sunday January 28, 2024 @05:50AM (#39164392)
No more theft than putting a solar panel under a street light that's shining on your property.
Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by maxerickson on Sunday January 28, 2024 @06:29AM (#39164626)
The more interesting legal analogy is probably water rights. If the state decides to protect the power line, it will be illegal to draw power without permission, regardless of the physical circumstances.
Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by 127361 on Sunday January 28, 2024 @06:31AM (#39164637)
But again he is barely even abstracting a single watt of energy. To take legal action for such a trivial "offense" is beyond ridiculous.
Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by hiddencost on Sunday January 28, 2024 @11:19AM (#39167089)
You're very confused. And posting incorrect statements all over this thread. If you're excited about questions of legality, maybe you'd be interested in attending law school to learn more about the topic?

Enforcement and legality are separate things. Many people break the law under the assumption they will not be prosecuted. They're still breaking the law.

That's OK. But it's worth knowing because eventually enough of those small choices add up to something that does trigger the laws attention.

There's another reason this behavior might elicit enforcement: in many cases, failure to enforce property rights can become grounds for losing rights or being unable to enforce them in other contexts. So a large company may have an incentive to go after someone like this just to make sure that other people don't start doing more ambitious versions of this.

Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by 127361 on Sunday January 28, 2024 @11:30AM (#39167214)
Your stance here is ridiculous. Common sense says it's wrong to arrest and/or prosecute people over such a trivial matter.

So much for all your supposed "justifications" for doing so. Have you completely lost all sense of proportionality here? Or has the legal system gone completely bonkers, then? Or are you trying to gaslight me?

We're talking about 0.1 watts of electricity being "stolen" at most.

Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by defrost on Sunday January 28, 2024 @05:56AM (#39164426)
A more accurate analogy would be old style overhead drive shafts that powered many machines in large early industrial revolution factories.

This is equivilant to throwing an extra belt over the shift to power your own machine.

There's only so much power available and as more and more machines are driven there's less and less ommph to power more.

This is literally adding "drag" to the overhead power line and decreasing what reaches the end point of transmission.

It's not equivilant to scooping up photons that were being thrown on the ground anyway.

Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by 127361 on Sunday January 28, 2024 @06:04AM (#39164473)
It's not possible to abstract any sizable amount of energy this way, unless the line is kilometers long. It's the scale of the "theft" that matters, which is so trivial compared to the inherent losses in the transmission line.
Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by idiotsecant on Sunday January 28, 2024 @11:58AM (#39167515)
Is it OK to eat a grape for free in the grocery? Why or why not?
Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by MOARDONGZPLZ on Sunday January 28, 2024 @12:36PM (#39167879)
Yes, when done in good faith. This is customary like trying tastes of beer from a bartender when selecting the beer one wants a pint of. Draining electricity with an antenna is neither customary nor done in good faith…

Your analogy would be better if it were asking if it’s okay to walk through the store daily and take a couple grapes to add to my fruit basket at home.

Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by Ekaros on Sunday January 28, 2024 @01:26PM (#39168330)
You mean it is customary to place your mouth on beer tap and take a sip? Strange customs over there...
Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by agsnu on Sunday January 28, 2024 @05:54AM (#39164414)
Not true, either physically or legally.
Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by 127361 on Sunday January 28, 2024 @05:58AM (#39164433)
The line losses are so huge anyway, this would barely even register. Heck a few large trees close to the power line would drain more energy than this. Considering such a trivial act as "theft" is completely ridiculous.
Re:Harvesting Electricity from High-Voltage Transmission Lin... by speff on Sunday January 28, 2024 @10:09AM (#39166458)
It’s interesting how confidently they asserted something plain wrong.