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Re:Culture Change at Google by redcobra762 on Friday January 19, 2024 @02:05AM (#39052450)
Someone I used to work with was acquihired into Google, despite being one of the most manipulative, conniving, duplicitous people I’ve ever met. A person like this can get found out at companies that value talent (he has none), but at Google, he’s thriving.

This ruined the shine of a Google resume, for me. It’s still great, but it’s just a job now. I look at the specific skills applied during an applicant’s time there, as opposed to previously presuming some level of excellence as a result of working with what I at one point thought were other great engineers.

Re:Culture Change at Google by mrintegrity on Friday January 19, 2024 @03:34AM (#39053036)
I was at a big conference in Dublin years ago where a Google talking head stated to hundreds of people that "google only hires the most intelligent people" with a grotesquely smug look on her face, instantly turned me off from ever considering applying to work there. Incidentally RMS was also there and screamed from the back "WHICH BSD LICENSE?" when the Google drone said google uses "the bsd license", which I thought was hilarious.
Re:Culture Change at Google by cageface on Friday January 19, 2024 @03:10AM (#39052885)
Two of the worst colleagues I ever had also went on to thrive at Google. It’s been hard for me to take their claims of only hiring the best since then.
Re:Culture Change at Google by elektrontamer on Friday January 19, 2024 @02:09AM (#39052471)
How is that even possible? Won't he just get exposed in the first performace review? Or is he in some cushy managerial role?
Re:Culture Change at Google by rightbyte on Friday January 19, 2024 @02:24AM (#39052569)
Your boss got no clue how hard or easy your work is usually. Even if he is a good programmer you need to more or less work side by side to get a grip on someones performance.

And smooth talkers game peer reviews.

Re:Culture Change at Google by romanovcode on Friday January 19, 2024 @02:24AM (#39052571)
I've worked in one big company when something like this actually happened. First week one developer blatantly said to management in-front of the scammer that the scammer (CTO) doesn't know anything about technology and is a complete fraud.

The developer got fired 10 minutes later. Others took note to not challenge him if they want to keep their job.

That happened ~10 years ago and I am actually grateful for that experience because I was just starting out, the scammer indirectly taught me much more about how to scam and lie your way to the top, how to sell your ideas to unaware management and most importantly - that office politics are 10x more important than merit in big companies.

Re:Culture Change at Google by jjav on Friday January 19, 2024 @02:53AM (#39052786)
> that office politics are 10x more important than merit in big companies

My experience (5 startups) is that office politics are 100x more important in small startups. Everything is more concentrated, including the politics. That's why there is so much cofounder drama to go around.

At least in a big company there's a lot of inertia and process to tone down the politics a little bit.

Re:Culture Change at Google by shiroiuma on Friday January 19, 2024 @04:13AM (#39053331)
Yeah, I agree. Anecdotes like the GP's just show that big companies aren't immune to these problems (and some big companies are better-run than others). These problems can happen at any company. My experience, at both big and small and also medium-size companies, is that smaller companies usually have much less process and procedures, and can vary greatly from one to another. Big companies have evolved procedures and processes to try to mitigate these human problems. So, for instance, you're much more likely to see sexual harassment and discrimination in a smaller company: if the guy who owns the place is cool with it, it'll be the norm there. Huge companies don't get to be huge these days by tolerating that stuff, and they have a lot of money to lose in a lawsuit, so they put a lot of effort into insulating themselves: anti-harassment training for employees, etc.
Re:Culture Change at Google by taurath on Friday January 19, 2024 @06:19AM (#39054177)
Goodness yes. Your relationships literally are your career at small startups. Your reputation means everything. Not to mention the nepotism and the privilege - the people with truckloads of money meeting for dinners afterwards while those who’ve had to budget a house payment in 10 years go for a beer.
Re:Culture Change at Google by ljm on Friday January 19, 2024 @08:28AM (#39055125)
Funnily enough my experience of politics was far worse in a larger, more established company than a smaller one.

Maybe a different kind of politics, but it was toxic as fuck and my career was basically at the mercy of heads and directors that I would never have reason to interact with. Hit a bump on a project that causes a delay? Expect some higher up to threaten the prospects of the entire team unless we got it done on time.

Most of the people engaging and benefitting from such cut-throat politics and gossip had no right to be in such management positions. Non-existent leadership skills.

Tiny startups can be equally rough but at least it's more direct.

Re:Culture Change at Google by boxed on Friday January 19, 2024 @02:32AM (#39052642)
You learned how to assume the world is broken, and not fix it. That's the path back to a hunter gatherer society. I think that's the wrong lesson to learn.
Re:Culture Change at Google by vkazanov on Friday January 19, 2024 @04:14AM (#39053338)
This might sound rough but the lesson should be "don't be an idiot".

Time for shouting "king's naked!" comes eventually but people who ignore timing will end up losing this game. The secret to this is to understand how other decision-makers see the status quo. Who made a bet on this person? Who understands that he is THE problem? Is right now the best time for a direct opposition?

And sometimes it's just easier to accept that it may make sense to work elsewhere.

Re:Culture Change at Google by Intralexical on Friday January 19, 2024 @03:23AM (#39052971)
Hard agree. But yet, what became of the one who did try to fix it?
Re:Culture Change at Google by protomolecule on Friday January 19, 2024 @03:49AM (#39053146)
He left that shitty place early and lived happily ever after?
Re:Culture Change at Google by romanovcode on Friday January 19, 2024 @02:43AM (#39052728)
I learned how big companies function and how to get ahead quick. The two things - politics and competence are not mutually exclusive.
Re:Culture Change at Google by sumtechguy on Friday January 19, 2024 @10:44AM (#39056781)
I had one project where there were about 10 people working on it. Shipped about 10k units. Doing decent but not hockey stick money. Until we hired one guy. We went from a 10 man team to 2. He could not get along with any one. No one could approach his amazingness. He would triangulate people and get them kicked out of the group. Soon those 10k units and 5 customers were getting rather pissed off as nothing was getting done other than giant presentations. He really wanted to be a manager in 6 months.

Before he could infect another group with his special touch I politically maneuvered him into the most boring of tasks that no one wanted to do. He had run the one project into the ground. At the right moment I used his own triangulation manipulation bits on him. I had to become that which I despised to basically take him out before he did too much damage. I had him shunted off to a task that if it was done no one cared. It was a pity too as he was a competent programmer. But had too much of an ego to listen to the other decent programmers around him.

Moral of that story? There are jerks out there that will take out a well functioning team and not even see they are doing it. Beware of them. The world is not broken. But there are those who start fires because they like to make messes.

Re:Culture Change at Google by OJFord on Friday January 19, 2024 @07:30AM (#39054670)
> that office politics are 10x more important than merit in big companies.

's/big //'

Re:Culture Change at Google by treprinum on Friday January 19, 2024 @02:20AM (#39052535)
My very first boss that I believe is an undiagnosed psychopath is now director level over there. That told me everything I needed to know about any possible direction of the company. I no longer use anything made by them and actively steer everyone I know away to alternatives.
Re:Culture Change at Google by the_gipsy on Friday January 19, 2024 @02:52AM (#39052777)
Re:Culture Change at Google by InCityDreams on Friday January 19, 2024 @04:30AM (#39053446)
>the Gervais Principle

Which it's not really, as it only considers the US version. "The characters portrayed here are based upon other characters that RG invented."

Re:Culture Change at Google by selfawareMammal on Friday January 19, 2024 @02:26AM (#39052593)
After being in multiple orgs and having been in touch with c-suite, I have suspicions that lack of total empathy and psychopathic tendencies are a must to get to really high social-based positions.
Re:Culture Change at Google by saiya-jin on Friday January 19, 2024 @03:15AM (#39052914)
They are practically a must just to get there... to thrive in this 'layer' of society, a person is quite far away from regular average human in various worst ways possible
Re:Culture Change at Google by treprinum on Friday January 19, 2024 @01:04PM (#39058825)
I know headhunters that specialize in identifying highly functioning sociopaths for leadership roles. But experiencing total dehumanization of others first-hand and subsequent rise of that person is something one never forgets.
Re:Culture Change at Google by SkyMarshal on Friday January 19, 2024 @02:25AM (#39052583)
What alternatives do you recommend for email? That's my one google service I have difficulty getting away from.
Re:Culture Change at Google by johannessjoberg on Friday January 19, 2024 @02:38AM (#39052684)
Fastmail is great and worth the small cost imo
Re:Culture Change at Google by slices on Friday January 19, 2024 @09:35AM (#39055936)
aren't they still in Oz, with its govt mandated backdoors?
Re:Culture Change at Google by zahllos on Sunday January 21, 2024 @07:32AM (#39077868)
Yes and probably, but then Google is in the US.
Re:Culture Change at Google by the_third_wave on Friday January 19, 2024 @02:43AM (#39052731)
Self-host, easy. No matter the hordes of detractors who will tell you this is impossible and that all your mail will be /dev/nulled by all the usual suspects (Microsoft, Microsoft and Microsoft being the main culprit here, Gmail comes in second) the truth is that you'll be fine as long as you make sure to configure things like SPF and DKIM correctly and you're either using a smarthost for outgoing mail (ask your IAP whether they provide one) or are on a reputable network.

A SBC like a Raspberry Pi is sufficient to host mail services for a fairly large number of people. Filter out spam with Spamassassin and a greylist, run sieve to organise your incoming mail flow, use specific mail addresses when communicating with commercial and government organisations and you'll end up asking yourself why so many people insist that self-hosting mail is not an option.

Now that you're self-hosting mail you can also self-host XMPP using the same address making it possible for people to reach you through either SMTP (mail) or XMPP (instant messaging/voice/video calling) using that address. This can be hosted on that same SBC without problems.

Source: my own experience self-hosting mail (and more) since the 90's. If it worked on a 486DX2-66 it should work on a quad-core 1.5GHz 64-bit ARM...

Re:Culture Change at Google by the_third_wave on Friday January 19, 2024 @10:14AM (#39056498)
It would be interesting to hear why the armchair experts clicked that vote-down arrow instead of reacting. The fact that you think self-hosting mail can not be done does not mean others can not do it. If you happen to work for a mail hosting company and feel you need to grey out potential competition that'd be understandable (if fraudulent) but otherwise I do not understand this reaction. Does the fact that others can self-host make you feel insecure? Does the fact that this gives those people freedom and the opportunity to evade censorship threaten you? Let's hear it, I'm interested in understanding the background for this ever so common reaction to any suggestion of not letting the experts handle things like this.
Re:Culture Change at Google by skazazes on Friday January 19, 2024 @12:09PM (#39057894)
I'll bite. I am willing to bet the majority of people down voting you are more than capable of hosting an email server. But like me, see it as not worth the potential risks involved.

Before even considering why someone might not choose to do so, I would like to point out that selfhosting email is not even that hard to do nowadays. I spent a couple hours a few years back manually setting up a stack on a dummy domain just to see if its as hard as developer circles make it out to be. It was not. Furthermore a quick search today nets half a dozen docker containers you can spin up that claim to be one stop solutions for email. If even a fraction of them succeed in what they claim you could self host email with one command and an env file. You could even use the dockerfiles as a template to run the software on metal, its all there.

Even with this newfound knowledge, and as someone who tries to selfhost equivalents to any service I find myself using regularly, I would never attempt to host my own main emails. My bank accounts are linked to my emails, my investment accounts, my insurance, my loans, things that I am not willing to risk compromising my ability to access as the result of some sort of overly prideful sentiment.

Just because someone has the ability and knowledge to host their own email does not mean they should or would even consider it.

Re:Culture Change at Google by SkyMarshal on Friday January 19, 2024 @12:29PM (#39058210)
Those are all good reasons not to self-host, but none are good reasons to downvote someone advocating self-hosting and providing some useful info about it. I don't get the downvote-brigading here either, especially on a hacker website.
Re:Culture Change at Google by skazazes on Friday January 19, 2024 @12:44PM (#39058474)
Fair enough, I assume the down votes came as a result of the tone.
Re:Culture Change at Google by the_third_wave on Friday January 19, 2024 @02:04PM (#39059602)
What is wrong with the tone? Is it wrong to point out that those who advocate taking care of one's own digital needs - a.k.a. self-hosting - tend to get shouted or voted down on this here Hacker News site which, if going by its name only would be just the place you'd expect to be the refuge for those who like to tinker and who value self-sufficiency?
Re:Culture Change at Google by redcobra762 on Friday January 19, 2024 @07:54PM (#39063491)
Yes, to put it simply. It’s a violation of the HN guidelines to complain about voting.

> Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.

Re:Culture Change at Google by SkyMarshal on Friday January 19, 2024 @12:30PM (#39058223)
Thanks, I was hoping someone would provide an update on self-hosting too, in addition to service recommendations. I may test it out, thx for the info.
Re:Culture Change at Google by unethical_ban on Friday January 19, 2024 @02:37AM (#39052673)
I use Protonmail. Free tier I think, but I pay $10 a month for a bundle that allows custom domains, calendar, VPN, and storage.
Re:Culture Change at Google by atomlib on Friday January 19, 2024 @04:10AM (#39053317)
You pay $120 per year, not $10 per month.
Re:Culture Change at Google by Doctor_Fegg on Friday January 19, 2024 @03:01AM (#39052820)
Runbox is good.
Re:Culture Change at Google by brodo on Friday January 19, 2024 @07:50AM (#39054840)
Re:Culture Change at Google by psd1 on Sunday January 21, 2024 @08:16AM (#39078172)
Runbox
Re:Culture Change at Google by operatingthetan on Friday January 19, 2024 @02:27AM (#39052605)
>undiagnosed psychopath

Eh, I've seen these in every kind of company, none are immune.

Re:Culture Change at Google by com on Friday January 19, 2024 @03:20AM (#39052953)
If you’re in a business still in control of your own destiny, you could do what we did and keep a weather eye out for sociopathy-aligned behaviours and gently work them out while minimising danger.

It worked reasonably well at one place I was at for about 8 years, estimating one of those characters popping up every 200-500 hires.

It’s the strategic side to your internal integrity function. Typically recruit folks who are lightning rods for these kinds of behaviours: young, female, brown, queer members of staff - don’t forget reception annf cleaning personnel! - and train them (often not necessary!) to spot abuse of power, bullying, threats and gaslighting and to confidentially report it.

Catch people with these behaviours early and divert the smart ones, fire the dumb ones. Sure, you’ll lose your next CEO, but did you want to work for that kind of person?

Re:Culture Change at Google by foofie on Friday January 19, 2024 @04:36AM (#39053481)
> My very first boss that I believe is an undiagnosed psychopath is now director level over there. That told me everything I needed to know about any possible direction of the company. I no longer use anything made by them and actively steer everyone I know away to alternatives.

I had a boss who was a manager at one of Google's flagship products, and he made it his point to not let anyone forget it. He pushed people to work nights and weekends, he berated team members and threatened firing them during daily meetings, he overrode engineer's calls to not release a product to claim he released it before schedule, he threatened the same engineers if anything went wrong during the illadvisable release, etc.

He was since hired as a VP of engineering of another global company.

Re:Culture Change at Google by euroderf on Friday January 19, 2024 @10:58AM (#39056937)
"The typical company is like a septic tank.

It's the biggest chunks that rise to the top."

Re:Culture Change at Google by choppaface on Friday January 19, 2024 @02:53AM (#39052784)
Former friend joined Google and started hitting his pet (violently and angrily) and doing heavy drugs. Anthony Levandowski might be an outlier at Google for criminal behavior as well as total comp, but there are plenty of Googlers who you want to have nothing to do with.
Re:Culture Change at Google by gumballindie on Friday January 19, 2024 @07:03AM (#39054478)
> This ruined the shine of a Google resume, for me.

What ruined it for me was interviewing ex googlers. Not the PhD levels, but IC. To be fair none passed the inteview. Perhaps it was just the UK google offices. Similar for facebook. At facebook some of the people I know working there are abolutely vile. The types that threatened their coworkers and somehow got away with it. Each organisation favours a certain type and it all comes down from the top.

Re:Culture Change at Google by deanCommie on Monday January 22, 2024 @03:44PM (#39095162)
This is the thread I was looking for. In all these glowing odes to the Google that Was that cross Hackernews every day now, about what an incredible and liberating and productive place it was, there's always something missing.

The most toxic, conceited, selfish, inflexible, basically the worst stereotype of "genius asshole" engineers I've ever studied with, or worked with, all wound up at Google.

And is it a surprise when the entire interview process consists of "Are you good at computer science?"