The chips themselves don’t tend break, but wires and connectors and sensors all do tend to break, and they are effectively part of the computer system. Today, it’s practically moot where you draw the line. Something mechanical on my CRV broke somewhere, and the computer didn’t know what it was, and so the dealer didn’t know what it was, and the computer tended to shut down over unknown problems, and it eventually caused a cascading failure of physical mechanical components when the timing belt melted and it took out the alternator with it.

> The bells and whistles are mostly for creatures comfort.

This is increasingly (and rapidly) less and less true. Traction control, lane assist, adaptive cruise control, and emergency braking, are all things computer controlled (and things that are programmed to disable when the computer barfs. You can argue these are creature comforts, but in my experience they are becoming necessary modern safety features.

In a previous car, the sound system wigged out completely when it was only 5 years old. That’s a creature comfort, except really annoying to go without, and it was insanely expensive to replace, several thousands for a pretty basic stereo.

It’s actually the capacitors that fail first because they have a liquid electrolyte

I have never seen an electrolytic capacitor fail in an automotive context, and I've owned my fair share of capacitor plague-era vehicles. I'd imagine it's a combination of preferring other types of capacitor for that environment and not buying the cheapest shit they can find in the markets that day like Dell did.

Yeah, it could also be a product of where you live. I live in the southwest us so it’s more area here and likely to dry them out faster. You’re definitely right about good quality not being as good as it used to be

Did the computer shutdown(s) cause (or fail to prevent) the timing chain failure?

Yes - it was probably more in the failure to prevent category, but I’m not sure because we never got to the bottom of it, the computer would just freak out and refuse to recognize any systems. We were playing a game of pay the dealer to replace something random to see if it worked, and then repeat when it didn’t. Once it asploded, we paid over $5k in repairs, only to have the computer start convulsing again, so we sold it back to Honda. Something was seriously wrong with Honda’s overall computer design here. I don’t know if they’ve fixed it, but I’m not alone, this is a relatively common issue for ~5 year old CRVs, based on what I’ve found online.

Sounds like you need to stop relying on the dealer and find one of those old guru mechanics that can diagnose a car just by listening to it. Good mechanics are worth their weight in gold and I promise they’re out there if you look for them.

Listening to the computers does not work. Debugging electronics also requires different skillset and oftenly, expensive equipment to even talk to it. Also, manufacturers are increasingly locking down debugability of the cars and after market part availability via parts pairing.

That's why people don't like increasing amount of electronics in cars.

Hehe they can hear the sound of the computer? I have a couple of excellent mechanics on speed-dial, but they couldn’t have done any better here, and I wouldn’t have gotten the work partially reimbursed, nor would Honda have bought the car back after the damage if it had been a 3rd party. It turned out to be really useful in my case that Honda was the one that tried to fix it, and the dealer admitted the problem was out of our control.

Old guru mechanics don't often like computers. lol

> in my experience they are becoming necessary modern safety features

EU recently mandated that all new models have Intelligent Speed Assistance[1].

This requires the car to use GPS, read signs and such to determine the current speed limit, and provide some feedback like a dynamic force on the gas pedal[2].

I got this in my new car, being a model introduced last year, and while it's nice when it works, it's often confused or wrong. And that's when it's operating normally. I already had to replace the gas pedal unit because the force feedback mechanism in it had some issues (would tap the pedal like a light hammer strike at a specific position, repeated around 5 Hz if held at the exact position). Wonder how it'll all hold up down the line.

[1]: https://road-safety-charter.ec.europa.eu/resources-knowledge...

[2]: https://www.autoweek.com/news/industry-news/a40543584/anti-s...

As a car nerd, a popular opinion is to avoid cars with computers because they could fail anytime, and can't be macgyvered into a repair roadside.... but after ~50 years of computerized cars, it seems that simple solid state computers, ruggedized and often potted in epoxy essentially never fail. And moreover, they can both give early warnings before you're stranded, and diagnostic data that can be used to pinpoint and fix a problem in the middle of nowhere.

I especially love the mid-90s and newer VWs, which will report through VCDS software literally every part failure, or sensor output, from any system in the car.

I have a couple of '71 VWs and you can fix almost anything on the with toothpicks and Scotch tape. They just run because they're so simple ... You can actually count the wires in the harness and read the color codes! Thing thing that drives me nuts are the mechanical voltage regulator - they are finicky and today's hardened solid state devices near them in every way.

If you don't intend to keep them fully stock there are modern solid-state drop-in replacements for reasonable prices! Given that they are fairly simple cars building one yourself from common electronic parts would not be too difficult either.

Simplicity is huge for reliability… but Volvos from that same early 70s era were also crazy simple yet used solid state boxes to control everything… and were way more reliable than the VWs.

It's not computers breaking you need to fear, but your engine management refusing to turn on when you've put a in third-party window washer motor that doesn't provide the correct response to some proprietary encrypted canbus query.

Having a newer VW with VCDS is a superpower. If you are getting vague codes (e.g. Air Intake Leak), you get really good at analyzing sensor data to determine exactly what an issue might be and can either fix it or swap the sensor, most of which can be had for reasonably cheap (notable exceptions include MAF and emissions related sensors).

Beg to differ.

The reality is more like how Ford has victimized its customers with its EPAS system. That's Electronic Power Assist Steering.

They got rid of the old dead-simple power steering pump and replaced it with a flakey system based around an electronic sensor that is prone to shorting if you look at it funny and can only be replaced along with the entire steering rack that it's attached to...to the tune of thousands of dollars.

VWs and Audis of that era were notorious for the electrical system getting haunted by ghosts. Forums are littered with threads of perplexing symptoms, engine codes, voltage readings, often no solutions either for most of these threads from userbases that are competent enough to swap engines or transmissions themselves.

As a longtime VW forum guy, those issues are mostly from people not knowing what they are doing and usually involve extensive water damage to the electrical harness- that can be prevented with proper maintenance. For example, there was a design flaw in some of the coolant reservoirs that cause coolant to leak into the wiring harness. If you know about this, you can look for it and catch it early or prevent it.

When I bought a new 2012 VW GTI there wasn't even a schematic for the fuses. Apparently the wiring is not even consistent on a model year, so they just didn't provide it. Easy to understand why with even computer codes mechanics are stuck with a plug and pray methodology.

My Xdrive unit in my BMW died 3 months after buying it. I thought...ya, out of all the things that could break in my car...it was the bell and whistle computer. I'm betting it was just a capacitor or something, but of course you have to get a whole new one as a replacement.

The thing most likely to cause an accident with my car is the horrible Apple Car Play system via USB. I don't know if it's a VW problem, Apple problem, or just a bad combination of the two. It can be so frustrating and fiddly that I'll just pull over to deal with it. I've been considering going old school with a mount and just use the car speakers via bluetooth instead.

Not sure if I had the same issues but my situation was resolved by cleaning my lightning port and using a quality cable.

Car Play has been reliable for me in a Toyota. Now the Toyota software, twice in two years I've pulled over to power cycle the car because the head unit was wedged. I'm not sure how that compares to other cars but never had to reboot any of the many rentals I've used over the years.

CarPlay is hit-or-miss. It's been totally unusable in every Chevy I've driven and moderately bad in some other cars, but it worked flawlessly in my last Chrysler rental car of all things.

You know what's even better than a working CarPlay, the cupholder in my own car that can hold my phone in a nicely visible spot.

VW problem. My missus' VW Polo has the same problems. I did work out that a brand new, known-good cable and working out that pressing and holding the power button to hard-reset the dash would get it to finally start connecting every time (or connect properly after it's done its "I'm useless" failure mode)

The reboot tech is good to know, thanks. Yeah it just kinda fails randomly at times and I'm using a quality cable with a clean port.

The littany of sensors begin to go bad after 6-7 years in many newer cars.

I’ve had malfunctioning servos that can’t seem to keep still. It affects the recirculation and air controls but that’s about it.

That's not a new problem. My experience is the most reliable actuators are simple vacuum spring design but they're so much more complex to route and take up space.

I wish we never got rid of manual windows. Those servos are the most annoying thing I've had to replace on my vehicle yet

Which sensors?

All of the important sensors have been in cars for years and years at this point.

Do computers last 20+ years in cars?

As others have mentioned, sensors and stuff related to safety fail all the time. I recently paid $800 to re-enable the safety systems in my (newer) car after a part failed. I've never had such expensive repairs on my 20 year old car.

Do computers last 20+ years in cars? Well, my 2005 SAAB 9-3T is still working quite nicely outside of a failing turbo and the injectors needing replacing. Computer still tells me when lights are out, if I'm having A/B throttle sensor voltage issues, etc.

But that's 18 years old. Give me two more and we can have this convo again.

My 2001 BMW with electronic throttle and fuel injection is doing just fine, the weakest point is plastic in the engine bay gets brittle and starts rotting (especially around coolant system).

Ah, but probably a single repair on that BMW will be more expensive than 5 years of repairs on my Corolla.

It depends on the country. BMW are well known by any mechanic and parts are widely available, OEM and aftermarket. In my experience BMWs are not more expensive to repair than any Toyota or VW, but due to the increased set of features they have a higher failure surface.

Only if you do your repairs at the dealership

As a BMW owner, I actually found the repair pricing quite comparable. Maybe not quite to a Corolla, but it was to a Lexus.

If anything the Lexus was a bit more, due to how common BMW specialist shops are, while there's none for Lexus.

The issue for me was the frequency of the repairs, 5 years of Lexus ownership cost me less than any 3-4 month period of BMW ownership over the 2 years I owned it.

I suppose I can only compare 2-3 repairs, cause the other dozen repairs for the BMW simply didn't break on the Lexus, nor did it spring any of oil leaks my BMW was famed for.

Your mistake was taking it to a Lexus dealer. The cars are nearly identical to their Toyota counterparts so most mechanics can work on them

My 1989 Bronco II has a computer ignition system. Even an OBDI diagnostic capability. You can count the pulses and it tells you the error code. It still works fine. Most brands of cars were using solid state computers at least in some capacity like this since the late 1970s

Lots of sensors and features on my 2016 Honda have trouble. Not as bad as a Cadillac or Mercedes, but bad nonetheless.

The worst is software problems. The dealer techs don’t have the tools, training or interest to sift through TSBs and upgrade systems.

One thing that years and years of looking at CR has attuned me to is that car electronics break all the time and are the reason why many brands have poor reliability scores even though the engines run, the lights turn on, and the doors open and close (most of the time).

German and American cars seem to have a very frustrating time with reliable electronics compared to Asian brands for some reason, and the problems persist year after year.

For especially electronic heavy brands, typically higher-end ones the problem can become particularly pronounced, the bottom ranked vehicles on this list are mostly high-end, expensive, and packed full of gear (except for a few). Electric vehicles and PHEVs have the biggest problems being almost entirely electronics.

Asian brands use more simple and time tested systems. They are about 3-5 years behind in most cases but it pays off in reliability

My 2015 Dodge RAM with a failed ECU begs to differ. Wouldn't be so bad except replacements aren't expected to be available until April 2024.

But, that's not unique to a "computer loaded car". ECU's have been a standard component for decades.

Granted. Good point. :-)

I have a 2021 Subaru Forester and the sensors are a nightmare. The computers are fine, but the sensors are extremely problematic.

"The only thing that I couldn’t fix on my own in my 2020 vs my 2006 was re-alignment of lane keep system after replacing the windshield. "

That car isn't old enough for anything to be breaking yet. It's barely 4 years old. In a 2006 so many basic simple things break like the clip to hold down the center console, the knob on the AC control. Not to mention the suspension, fan on the blower, belts, power window on at least 1 window. And you expect that touchscreen and software to make it?

Sounds like someone has never had to replace a wiring harness or deal with electrical “gremlins.” Also a lot of parts are just really terribly made these days. I had a 2000 car that was already succombing to modern plastic everything crap philosophy. Basically all the motors controlling the windows or power door locks were shot or close to shot. The internal gearing was all plastic and had gone brittle. The fix? Take apart the internal panelling and replace the whole motor assembly with a new unit that has the same fundamental issue with it, even though a five cent gear or clutch is what broke, until you can source no more new oem units, at which point the part is broken until the end of time since all the junkyard stock will also be rotting apart. This is the world we are building for ourselves.

Depends on how well the wiring is done in the first place.

I am an enthusiast of the entire reliability spectrum of vehicle brands.

There are people on Range Rover forums wondering why their infotainment doesn't work half the time in their brand new SUV, meanwhile when I goggled why my windshield wipers wouldn't turn off in my 97 Tacoma, I found a thread that suggested a wire would wear through in 200-300k miles (which was my mileage).

I owned a BMW 325i that was full of gremlins, then owned the competing Lexus IS350 (with far more features), to double the age and mileage without 1/10th of the issues.

> The mechanical components haven’t changed much.

But the control/configuration of mechanical components is now being done from touch panel and if it becomes unresponsive then it’s as good as mechanical component breakdown.

Sadly even old computers will being to break at some point. My Ford Focus is old enough to drink too and the central unit has become flaky, like numbers disappearing from the odometer and the speedometer going to 0 in mid route. The repair shop said those were dirty contacts, then the soldering, then they took it to a 3rd party... they didn't solve anything. The mechanics of the car are still good, but I feel like its time has come because now I'm not feeling confident of taking it for a long trip.