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Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by FirmwareBurner on Sunday November 26, 2023 @05:59AM (#38420708)
>Researchers explore how chronic caffeine consumption potentially impacts brain plasticity

Key words: "chronic caffeine consumption" and "potentially".

Main takeaway: Avoid chronic caffeine consumption to retain proper brain functions. So basically common sense, that excessive use of a psychostimulant will be bad for you.

Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by fbhabbed on Sunday November 26, 2023 @06:05AM (#38420734)
Basically everyone who consumes caffeine is a chronic user. Everyone I know of drinks it daily, and skipping one day is very unpleasant until your brain gets used to lack of it again (a couple miserable days).
Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by FirmwareBurner on Sunday November 26, 2023 @06:07AM (#38420746)
>Basically everyone who consumes caffeine is a chronic user. Everyone I know of drinks it daily

There goes HN with the health quackery again. Citation needed other than your opinion on you circle of acquaintances.

Drinking 300mg vs 50mg of caffeine a day are not the same, and lumping everyone under chronic just because you have a strong opinion on the topic is silly.

In this case they define chronic as someone who consumes over 200mg per day but the article and paper itself is very weak as they did not accurately measure subject's caffeine intake, they just went on subject's self reported data("I drank a coffee and a red bull") and built estimations on that which is weak science as there's not a fixed amount of cafeine in a cup of coffee but can vary wildly.

Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by morsch on Sunday November 26, 2023 @06:23AM (#38420814)
"Among those drinking coffee daily, almost 80 percent drank two or more cups while at home on a weekday."

https://www.statista.com/chart/19524/cups-of-coffee-drunk-by...

"The average American coffee drinker drinks just over 3 cups per day."

https://www.ncausa.org/newsroom/nca-releases-atlas-of-americ...

200 mg is about two cups of coffee.

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/how-much-caffeine-in-co...

Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by FirmwareBurner on Sunday November 26, 2023 @06:26AM (#38420824)
That doesn't prove everyone who drinks coffee is a chronic consumer. Caffeine doses are not binary, as in either you don't drink any coffee at all or are a chronic consumer otherwise.

What about those who consume it in small moderation?

Just because other people abuse it doesn't mean those who do not suffer the exact same negative effects in the same manner.

Of course studies will mostly focus on the cronic consumers as those will generally show the biggest symptoms and will be easier to study and draw conclusions versus the non coffee consumers, but that doesn't mean everyone is chronic consumer.

Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by mort96 on Sunday November 26, 2023 @07:08AM (#38421010)
Those who consume it regularly, even in small amounts, are chronic consumers.
Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by david-gpu on Sunday November 26, 2023 @07:34AM (#38421134)
> Those who consume it regularly, even in small amounts, are chronic consumers

Not as defined in the study we are discussing, which labels "chronic consumers" those who take more than 200mg of caffeine per day.

Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by mort96 on Sunday November 26, 2023 @09:08AM (#38421690)
Thanks, that's an important point. Interesting way to define "chronic".
Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by mahogany on Sunday November 26, 2023 @07:17AM (#38421058)
It would help if you defined “chronic consumer” in this context, because consuming multiple cups of coffee a day certainly sounds chronic to me.
Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by darthrupert on Sunday November 26, 2023 @07:32AM (#38421129)
It's a reasonable assumption, given how addictive, plentiful and socially encouraged coffee is.
Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by KptMarchewa on Sunday November 26, 2023 @06:59AM (#38420968)
Cups is not telling a lot. Are those two espressos, americanos, or something else?
Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by walthamstow on Sunday November 26, 2023 @08:03AM (#38421301)
Americano is espresso + water so I don't think that particular distinction will matter
Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by jncfhnb on Sunday November 26, 2023 @07:08AM (#38421012)
I mean mostly they’re gonna be coffees
Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by ben_w on Sunday November 26, 2023 @06:39AM (#38420871)
“Chronic” means “ongoing”, not “severe”. Given the details in the open access paper, I think this needs more study to find the threshold that matters, and also the highest number I found in this study with in browser search for “ mg” was 200 mg so arguing about 300 vs. 50 just seems silly.
Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by FirmwareBurner on Sunday November 26, 2023 @06:44AM (#38420896)
>the highest number I found in this study with in browser search for “ mg” was 200 mg so arguing about 300 vs. 50 just seems silly.

200mg is not the highest number but the threshold they seem to define for chronic. There are definitely people who drink way more than 200mg as that's only about 2 cups of coffee. I assume heavy cafeine users go above 300mg.

Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by ben_w on Sunday November 26, 2023 @09:06AM (#38421682)
“In this study” is an important part of the sentence you quoted.

Before learning about caffeine psychosis, my peak caffeine consumption was probably 8 cups/day where each cup was 2 table (not tea) spoons, so, ah, in retrospect terrifying: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=caffine%20in%2016%20tab...

Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by sandworm101 on Sunday November 26, 2023 @06:54AM (#38420943)
If they are doing a red bull every day, caffeine might not be their primary health issue. And the glowing red eyes and increased physical strength might compensate for the potential brain plasticity issue.
Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by cma on Sunday November 26, 2023 @08:43AM (#38421520)
There's a known widespread gene variant that changes caffeine metabolism pretty drastically, so that 300mg and 50mg can be pretty close to the same, if it is different people.
Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by deniscepko2 on Sunday November 26, 2023 @07:34AM (#38421133)
My personal experience im a daily drinker 2-3 cups, but can easily not drink for couple of days no problem. But i have high blood pressure my uneducated guess is that BP has a lot to do with how you handle non coffee days
Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by manmal on Sunday November 26, 2023 @06:08AM (#38420751)
I only occasionally drink coffee (or tea) and have found that 1-2 days of consecutive consumption are fine, but any more will trigger the withdrawal you mentioned. YMMV probably.
Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by KptMarchewa on Sunday November 26, 2023 @06:58AM (#38420961)
When I started drinking coffee, I drank it only at work. I started to have regular headaches on Sunday. It took me a while to connect the dots and understand I was regularly triggering two day withdrawal.
Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by yetihehe on Sunday November 26, 2023 @06:22AM (#38420811)
It WILL vary a lot. I do two weeks of "zero coffee" every year and never had any withdrawal symptoms, the rest of the year I drink a lot of coffee (4 big cups a day). Only sometimes I drink it to be more alert, typically I need it only to code. No coffee - no programming or any creative work for me. I try to mantain constant amount of caffeine in organism by sipping those 4 cups for whole day.
Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by theyinwhy on Sunday November 26, 2023 @06:51AM (#38420929)
Zero withdrawal symptoms. Just not able to work anymore.
Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by i_am_jl on Sunday November 26, 2023 @08:07AM (#38421315)
It could be a withdrawal symptom if their ability to work returns after the withdrawal period ends.

I've known people who are completely unproductive if they're not on Adderall, or on cannabis, I can't think of any reason there aren't people who are entirely useless without caffeine.

Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by yetihehe on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @01:58AM (#38443178)
Just less able to code. I do this as a vacations from work. I enjoy all the other normal day to day tasks, so more like a total reset/detox.
Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by hagbarth on Sunday November 26, 2023 @06:12AM (#38420762)
Reading the actual article this was based on, the main takeaway is that they now have a hypothesis they want to test.
Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by malf on Sunday November 26, 2023 @06:04AM (#38420732)
> common sense

75% of people surveyed drink coffee every day?

Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by scotty79 on Sunday November 26, 2023 @06:13AM (#38420767)
Everybody breathes 70% of nitrogen mixture. Nitrogen at elevated pressures has narcoleptic effect. It's common sense that even at atmospheric pressure nitrogen also has some narcoleptic effect. That is in fact true, as breathing helium mixture at atmospheric pressure improves reaction times.

People don't necessarily do what common sense would say if they have to do something else for other reasons.

Caffeine doesn't stimulate you, it just makes you unaware of how tired you are. You are still tired with many of the downsides of being tired like the negative impact on learning. People who drink coffee routinely have to do it to mask how tiring their lives are.

Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by mnky9800n on Sunday November 26, 2023 @06:26AM (#38420825)
I dunno. I drink coffee because I like to get up in the morning, grind the beans with my hand grinder, boil the water in the kettle, and put everything together in the French press. It's a transition moment that I take for myself from bedtime to day time. I like to have it after lunch to transition from lunch time where I am typically reading a novel back to work where I'm sitting and writing codes. I like to have a coffee at the coffee shop on the weekend because I can go for a walk with my gf and talk about random shit or plan a holiday or something. I'm not convinced my life is especially tiring except for all the drama I seem to create for myself inside my own head. That's a bit tiring. And so far, coffee seems to offer no respite to that self imposed exhaustion.
Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by tambourine_man on Sunday November 26, 2023 @06:57AM (#38420955)
It’s also delicious, aside from the psychoactive effects. Good coffee, that is.
Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by scotty79 on Sunday November 26, 2023 @11:02AM (#38422592)
Decaf is exactly the same.
Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by kbelder on Monday November 27, 2023 @12:19PM (#38435064)
I'm going to have to argue that point. The best decaf is just ok. Typical decaf is pretty noticeably bad.

I go on decaf stints occasionally, and not opposed to it. I'm grateful it exists. But you do pay for it in taste.

Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by scotty79 on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @05:26AM (#38444323)
I wonder how it fares in double blind comparisons.

Maybe you can tell, maybe not?

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/decaf-vs-regular-coffee-taste...

Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by scotty79 on Sunday November 26, 2023 @11:10AM (#38422648)
You can do all that with decaf beans. Besides turning something into quaint ritual doesn't alter purely biological impact in any way. You could describe in very close terms lighting a joint every day after coming back home. Or drinking a beer, but it doesn't make you any less high or drunk.

Caffeine strongly dysregulates nervous system and sleep patterns. Surprising thing for many people is that after stopping caffeine a lot of nervous drama inside your head might simply fade away.

Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by oceanplexian on Sunday November 26, 2023 @02:24PM (#38424171)
I love my coffee too and would never give it up. But if you know some smokers they will say the exact same thing about their smoking addiction.

“I don’t really smoke for the nicotine; I enjoy rolling the cigarette, the sensation of holding the cigarette, it gives me something to do with my hands, I like to get fresh air, it’s a social activity, etc.” The human mind is extremely good at rationalizing addiction.

Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by scotty79 on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @08:18AM (#38445375)
Interesting interview with a award winning barista and coffee entrepreneur that says that caffeine ingestion is something that you should be mindful about:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g

Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by jona-f on Sunday November 26, 2023 @06:42AM (#38420884)
Hey, i wasn't aware of nitrogen's narcotic effects. That led me down to this hilarious madness: "Hydreliox is an exotic breathing gas mixture of hydrogen, helium, and oxygen" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydreliox

Still, comparing breathing air with drinking coffee is one hell of a bad analogy. Ironically you did succeed in showing the ambiguity of common sense by your own lack thereof.

Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by Quinzel on Sunday November 26, 2023 @06:28AM (#38420833)
Keyword: “potentially” - so basically common sense that the researchers have not yet confirmed anything as fact??…

It seems like you’re jumping to conclusions.

Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by FirmwareBurner on Sunday November 26, 2023 @06:30AM (#38420843)
Which conclusion did I jump to?
Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by Mistletoe on Sunday November 26, 2023 @06:08AM (#38420752)
Well sometimes studies show coffee is good for your brain so I’m relieved to find this outcome because I don’t drink coffee and try to avoid caffeine daily.
Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by vjk800 on Sunday November 26, 2023 @06:59AM (#38420967)
Good and bad effects are not mutually exclusive. Coffee can, at the same time, be good for you on one metric and bad on another. The same for different time scales; coffee might be good for you on short-to-medium time scales, but bad on very long time scales.
Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by Qem on Sunday November 26, 2023 @07:38AM (#38421160)
Perhaps brain plasticity has its own downsides. Otherwise, why evolution would make us lose a lot of it once we reach adulthood? If there was no downsides, keeping a plastic brain for the whole life would be very adaptive. A gotcha must hide somewhere here.
Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by mrob on Sunday November 26, 2023 @08:01AM (#38421281)
Before the Industrial Revolution, people didn't see so much change in their daily lives. Perhaps the risk of learning something maladaptive outweighed the potential benefits back then.
Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by Qem on Sunday November 26, 2023 @08:33AM (#38421469)
Well, since agriculture fixed people in the same plot of land for their whole lives, sure. But before that there was nomadism. People moved from one area to another frequently. I think a lot of learning was necessary to map and adjust to new territories. So, I'm not so sure potential maladaptative learning explains everything.
Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by FirmwareBurner on Sunday November 26, 2023 @06:22AM (#38420809)
>Well sometimes studies show coffee is good for your brain

Why can't it be both good and bad for you? Water is also good for you but you can also die from drinking too much. Same with oxygen. Anything that's good for you in moderation, can kill you when consumed in excess.

The article doesn't say that any amount of coffee is bad for you, it says "chronic caffeine consumption is bad for you" which again, should be common sense. Chronic consumption of anything is generally bad for you.

It may very well be that light to moderate consumption could be beneficial at the same time as chronic being bad.

Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by Shaanie on Sunday November 26, 2023 @06:32AM (#38420850)
Chronic just means consistently for a long time, not the amount. There's lots of things for which chronic consumption is not bad (like pretty much everything considered healthy).
Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by FirmwareBurner on Sunday November 26, 2023 @06:36AM (#38420861)
>Chronic just means consistently for a long time, not the amount.

So if you drink 0.5mg of caffeine a day you're now a chronic user just as those who drink 300mg a day?

Sorry but that's bullshit. How can you draw any scientific conclusion without focusing on the most important aspect which is the dose of caffeine.

The word chronic alone doesn't mean jack here, when the daily does is all that matters.

Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by mnky9800n on Sunday November 26, 2023 @06:27AM (#38420827)
Water is good for you but you shouldn't breathe it. Air is good for you but you shouldn't eat it.
Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by FirmwareBurner on Sunday November 26, 2023 @06:33AM (#38420853)
You can also die of drinking too much water, not just drowning in it. Water intoxication is a thing. So is breathing in concentrated oxygen.
Re:Daily Coffee Habits May Affect Brain Plasticity and Learning by mnky9800n on Sunday November 26, 2023 @08:00AM (#38421276)
I was agreeing with you