IME the only consistency I noticed among boys clubs is bullies rule and out groups are mocked.
Remember when you could make jokes?
Plus the misattribution of watered-down safe products from corporations as being because they're "pc or driven by diversity" instead of driven by profits and avoiding controversy because it would hurt their bottom line.
It's like saying that babies are to blame for bad children's programming.
Maybe you really don't know, but John Cleese is considered extremely funny, and has been for decades: https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2022/oct/10/john-cleese-...
Bill Burr is also widely regarded as a good comedian, making funny jokes: https://actorsareidiots.com/bill-burr-people-taking-offense-...
Dave Chappelle made a similar complaint (that he will not be changing his material to bend to some people's demands) and is also widely regarded as funny: https://www.npr.org/2021/10/25/1049113893/dave-chappelle-res...
How about someone who is not widely known, but still considered quite highly as a funny person? Here's what she literally said: "Jokes used to be accepted as jokes [...] Morality police now dictate what we can and can’t say. " - https://www.chortle.co.uk/correspondents/2023/02/10/52508/go...
Yup, the actual funny people are complaining that they can't make actual jokes anymore: https://www.hollywoodintoto.com/comedians-online-censorship-...
I feel you should think long and hard before making a statement as orthogonal to reality as "The least funny people complain about their inability to make jokes".
If we really want to talk about these actual comedians (who are all very funny in their own right), I would say that Bill Burr is a snowflake who had a bad set, Dave Chappelle should really learn to not make jokes at the expense of people who are currently facing severe systemic oppression, and John Cleese is an over-reacting octogenarian, far past his prime and aligning himself with an anti-vax fake news network; not the arbiter of truth you think he is.
They aren't coming across as particularly sympathetic to me, and the comedy scene will forget them if they're not able to adapt their material to a changing generation. Comedy is temporally bound and what is good comedy changes over time.
People find different things funny, so there should be a diversity of choice in comedy. I've been to sets that I personally didn't find funny, but the audience was locals with a different sense of humour than me and they loved it. It wasn't bad, just not my style, but it didn't operate at the expense of someone else. I've been to sets where the comedian on stage floundered and lashed out at the audience for being too sensitive, and the next comedian killed it without being 'sensitive' to the audience, just by being funny.
Here are some funny comedians that I've seen this year that managed to not be transphobic or align themselves with conspiracy theories about vaccinations:
- Arthur Simeon
- The Lucas Brothers
- Malik Elassal
- Alonzo Bodden
- Joyelle Nicole Johnson
- Fortune Feimster
- Steph Tolev
Plus a bunch of others that I can't remember off the top of my head. Check them out if you care to. I don't think any of them are complaining that they can't be funny anymore, they're doing just fine, and I think they're bringing fresh comedy to the scene.
In my opinion, if the old guard wants to show themselves out because they feel like they can't compete, they should feel free to.
I refuted it, with actual evidence of funny people complaining that they can't make jokes anymore.
The fact that other funny people are not complaining is irrelevant, because that is not the claim you made.
because they can’t come up with material that isn’t at the expense of people facing systemic oppression
There are plenty of very funny comedians (with edgy acts, even!) that aren’t complaining about “cancel culture”. Check out Stavros Halkias maybe
Exactly, which is at odds with reality; see the list of complainers who are extremely funny people.
I explicitly didn't intend to scope my brief comment about "the least funny people" to encapsulate the entirety of humanity and I don't care to discuss this pedantic claim that "well technically N>0; QED".
Most of the comment you're saying doesn't matter was just me talking about comedians because I like comedy. If you don't like comedy, don't continue the conversation. If you disagree with something I said in a human capacity, not a "prove me wrong" capacity, then say so. I'm not as invested in this "claim" as you are to disproving it, clearly.
Men trying to force their way into women's spaces on the basis of some imagined 'gender identity' aren't facing oppression, they are the ones doing the oppressing - lobbying for laws and policies to be changed to eradicate female-only spaces everywhere.
It's the same old invasive misogyny we see from men everywhere, except this time it's supposedly progressive.
I'm glad that comedians like Dave Chappelle are poking fun at the ridiculousness of this. Laughing at an oppressive ideology really does help to undermine it.
Maybe it’s the content of your jokes that are the problem?
They had a character that was proud to have been part of the once great Taxes Nation, and I remember he too said something similar. Reminded me of what you just said.
"Remember when you could just hang the Mexican and Indians?"
Really deep, thought-provoking insight.
Really deep, thought-provoking insight.
No. Do you?
implicit comparison of GP to an unspecified made up character making racist comments
> I'm not even going to argue with you.
I see, because you brought no valid arguments in your comment.
> Now where is your god?
This phrase alone proves that discussing anything with you is of no use. Have a nice day.
The guy is implying he can't make jokes anymore because the jokes he wants to make are no longer politically correct, aka racist or sexist or whatever else. Yes I'm going to compare it to times when people lemented they could no longer be racist. What?
> This phrase alone proves that discussing anything with you is of no use.
It was a joke.
“Remember when we could just like lynch black people lmao XD”
Something is wrong with you guys.
Hilarious that you talk about nuance while explicitly removing nuance from the discussion by saying "A joke is a joke is a joke".
Ok dude, I'll look for your comedy special where you tell women to make you a sammich or put on a terribly racist Chinese accent and talk about eating cats or whatever.
Someone should have told that to the 12-18 year olds that would scream it at women as soon as one opened their mouth online in early xbox live during the "videogames are for boys" marketing era.
Since you seem to be arguing in good faith (albeit also in poor taste), when you ask a question like "Remember when you could make jokes?" it pegs your sense of humour to an era where women and minorities were the butt of oft repeated derogatory jokes. These jokes are not even worth considering for their comedic value because they were almost devoid of it in even the scenario that you outline.
A throwaway joke that relies on its shock value to derive any merit because it is not clever in the slightest. A category of joke that oversaturated the online landscape at one point, and now those with any sense of humour are numb to it.
When you repeat these types of jokes where the punchline is "racism" or "sexism" and people roll their eyes and don't laugh, it's not because they're offended, it's because your sense of humour is immature and underdeveloped.
So I repeat my earlier question: "Isn't it funny that the least funny people always complain about their inability to make jokes anymore?"
If it's a dog whistle that you can hear, then it's your whistle, summoning you, not the dogs
Well, honestly, I wasn't responding to an argument anyway, so why would I present an argument?
You argue: "Well technically a dog whistle is only audible to dogs so that means that you're a dog"
?? ok.
But that's not, to me, an argument - it's a expression of opinion, and you're free to hold one.
If you're saying that I misinterpreted it, maybe consider that it doesn't look like an argument - there's no evidence presented, there's no sequence of assertions, there's no antecedents, no consequence, no logical connectives ...
In short, there's no logic presented, which is why it looks, to me, like an opinion, and not a completely unreasonable one. One that I felt was made in good faith and so I could engage with in good faith.
> You argue: "Well technically a dog whistle is only audible to dogs so that means that you're a dog"
Ever read the last psychiatrist? A favourite phrase of his is "If you're reading it, it's for you." which sort of applies here - the claims of dog whistles/nazis/whatever are not to alert the general audience, but a rallying call to others of the same ideology.
It's a way to say "Come help me fight this argument because we believe the same things."
It is a dog whistle, but it's your dog whistle.
Being able to identify the conclusion that is not being said does not make me the target of the message. It just makes me someone with too much time invested in the 'culture wars' of today.
My observation is that "Dog whistle" is the new "They're a Nazi", which itself is the new "Think of the children".
They're all cognitive kill-switches and all mean the same thing - "I need to shutdown this conversation immediately".
Maybe there's a legit reason for shutting down a conversation, maybe there isn't, but the legitimacy of the reason is irrelevant to the fact that they are intended to shut down the conversation.
It's shaming language, designed to shame the other party into silence.
Prejudice by Tim Minchin:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamergate_(harassment_campaign...
You shouldn't thank boys clubs if you enjoyed those games - there could have been more, better games.
Surely you can see how this logic is absurd. You can’t limit your pool of workers to only “boys” and then claim you’re hiring the most capable people. You will miss out on all the capable people who aren’t “boys”.
What games have YOU shipped? Have you worked on a team at Rock Star or EA or any other game development company?
That said, not only discounting that either gender could be better at certain jobs but refusing to talk to someone because you suspect that may be their opinion is beyond absurd and that kind of politicized gut-based and evidence-fearing thinking may be another reason why organizations that don't pay attention to gender politics are more capable than those that do.
There are some physical jobs that have some gender bias due to their physicality. Software development is not one of them. This is like debating e.g. covid deniers or whatever nutjobs you will, not worth my time but not evidence fearing.
For a short while diverse leadership and management structure was an indicator that companies were promoting based on competence. But once someone realized that that was the case companies started stuffing the pool to pretend they were promoting competency without actually doing that.
The fact that you think that’s the only way a non-boy’s-club can exist is rather telling :x
What's telling to me is male college attendance and graduation are both below female levels and yet everyone still act like men run and rule everything and have every advantage. That is patently untrue.
If men were really as on top of everyone as claimed, we'd dominate in every major avenue of life. But we don't, so it pokes a hole in the narrative.
Socially speaking, we are abondoning men in droves. Boys are not getting the social and emotional upbringing needed to integrate in society, and many people just plain don't want men around.
Serial killers and school shootings are predominantly perpetrated by men. There may be a social component to that. I strongly suggest that not only is there an element, it's the primary reason it happens at all.
Men who feel excluded or taken advantage of will eventually strike back at those they consider responsible for harming them. This can be stopped by proper socialization.
That will never happen though because we're so quick to consider little 10 year old Bobby as a potential rapist. I'm sure that's a healthy environment for men, alongside their peers hating masculinity with no adequate replacement!
The world has a problem with men and it needs to get over it. We're an entire half of the species and we're not fucking going anywhere.
Uh have you looked at the Fortune 500? 459 of the companies are run by men.
Women make up only 28% of members of congress.
The world IS still run and ruled by men.
Show me where AVERAGE men have an edge deserving the treatment of a cheat code.
It makes no sense to harm someone because they look like someone else, who misuses their power and status to steamroll others.
Some will claim their actions are equality but can't match those words with proof or evidence. There's just a cultural distaste for white guys because we're all assumed to be living the high life, when we're not. It's simply not fucking true, and I don't care how much hate I get for it. It's founded on prejudice anyway, the same one those people claim to oppose.
If I have it so easy, why has a judge never once acknowledged my legal rights? Why have the police never helped me when I was the victim of crime?
Fuck a society that's comfortable with the angle of discriminating against common men because rich and powerful men have it easy.
There are LGBTQ+ boys clubs (and indeed LGB boys clubs and T boys clubs), as well as age and cultural ones.
Broadly speaking, teams who mesh well produce better outcomes. This often works when a boys club is formed naturally (e.g the old guard who just finished a 2 year project, new hires aren't "in") but can when people are forced into situations where they must get along.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38316831
>"Americans Jews seem to have this weird way of crying oppression on any criticism whatsoever." -averageRoyalty, November 18, 2023
It's pretty obvious that you're not a sincere person arguing in good faith, apparently just another zombie Gamergate troll who shouldn't be taken seriously, since you're carrying the water for ignorant misogynistic arguments falsely and unfairly accusing women on game development teams of being incompetent, just like you so recently and gleefully carried the water for Elon Musk's anti semitic white supremacist bullshit.
Read the misogynistic comment I called out that you're defending again, which is as idiotic and bigoted as Musk's anti-semitic troll you also defended, just aimed at disparaging different people:
>"Non-boys clubs give seats to incompetent workers to increase percentages in a report. Boys clubs can hire whoever is more capable with no regard to those percentages." -agbrrw, November 23, 2023
I have first hand experience and objective evidence that non-boys clubs can include competent women and LGBTQ+ people who weren't just hired to increase percentages in a report. What experience do you have with working with a team on a successful game, all boys or not? What games have you shipped? How successful were they, what awards did they win, and how many billions of dollars did they make?
The Sims Franchise Has Made Over $5 Billion In Revenue (And Counting) (2019):
https://www.thegamer.com/the-sims-franchise-revenue-over-5-b...
In case you weren't aware, the fact that there were kissing lesbians in The Sims was instrumental to its break-out success at E3 in 1999. It happened to be designed by a mix of men and women, straight and gay, and Will Wright dedicated to the trans game designer Danielle Bunten Berry. And it sold so well and made so much money for so many years, because it appeals to all genders and orientations, instead of limiting itself to only straight boys like you Gamergate incel apologists angrily and childishly demand.
The Kiss That Changed Video Games:
https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/the-kiss...
So what is your evidence that your bigoted claims are true (including your anti semitic ones, and your misogynistic ones), and that you have the real life experience in the industry to know what you're talking about, and you're not just pulling it out of your ass?
It's always the people who would never be hired to work on a professional team simply because they're insufferable assholes, having nothing to do with their gender or minority status, who whine and complain so bitterly about diversity holding them back and causing all of their problems, usually from the unemployed safety of their mother's basement.
- I'm not American and don't understand American-Jewish culture. I understand the common American need to insult and assume about those who dare to ask a question though, thanks for the example.
- I have no idea what "gamergate" is and I've never stated or insinuated women in game development are incompetent. This seems to be your own mental fantasy.
> I have first hand experience and objective evidence that non-boys clubs can include competent women and LGBTQ+ people who weren't just hired to increase percentages in a report.
That's fine. The GP wasn't speaking absolutely - that non-boys clubs don't work ever. They were stating the freedom to hire the person who clicks (who can be of any gender, race, sexuality, etc) - as opposed to enforced poor fits to tick a box - will often result in better outcomes. Nobody, anywhere here is saying women or LGBTQI+ people (who you're the one who brought up, by the way) can't be competent .
> What experience do you have with working with a team on a successful game, all boys or not? What games have you shipped? How successful were they, what awards did they win, and how many billions of dollars did they make?
Team building and delivery success aren't a unique concept to the games industry. I'm unsure why you want a pissing contest though.
> In case you weren't aware, the fact that there were kissing lesbians in The Sims was instrumental to its break-out success at E3 in 1999. It happened to be designed by a mix of men and women, straight and gay, and Will Wright dedicated to the trans game designer Danielle Bunten Berry. And it sold so well and made so much money for so many years, because it appeals to all genders and orientations
Good. Are you looking for praise here? Well done. I have no issue with that, only the strawman you've conducted does.
> instead of limiting itself to only straight boys like you Gamergate incel apologists angrily and childishly demand.
Ah ok, you're just a cunt. Got it. Anyone who has a difference of opinion to me is an incel.
I've not at any point complained about diversity holding anyone back, I don't believe women or queer prople are incompetent, and you need to get your psych to up your dosage my dude. I understand you sound noble in your head, but you're presenting like a crazy person on the street screaming at strangers about the rapture.
"Americans Jews seem to have this weird way of crying oppression on any criticism whatsoever." -averageRoyalty, November 18, 2023
Saying racist shit then pretending to be ignorant and incapable of understanding what your own words mean doesn't fly. We all already know you're ignorant because you say racist and sexist shit, and none of your arguments hold any water, but that doesn't absolve you from being racist and sexist.
In the context of the full comment, it's pretty clear I'm asking a question. My personal experience is that the American Jewish community seem to not handle criticism well at all, and any slight against them is marked as oppressive. I then asked for more information.
I'm unaware of anywhere I've brought up sex or race. Again, you're the one talking about those, not me.
I see double standards are still alive...
You may know this, but the gender driven discussion below makes me feel I should note that for anyone reading who is confused.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38398400
Reading your previous anti semitic comments, I feel the need to quote them here:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38316831
>"Americans Jews seem to have this weird way of crying oppression on any criticism whatsoever." -averageRoyalty, November 18, 2023
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/mythic_quest
Mythic Quest is an extremely well written and acted, biting, realistic parody of the game industry and gamers, like HBO's Silicon Valley is of the computer industry.
Anyone who's seen Mythic Quest, and is familiar with the pathological personality types the brilliant characters parody, can guess which character best represents you (I'd bet on Pootie Shoe).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythic_Quest
Mythic Quest: Raven's Banquet Season 1 Trailer | Rotten Tomatoes TV:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50Yz1apB7iw
Mythic Quest: The Best Sitcom No One Talks About:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PYkRYS05hw
MYTHIC QUEST: Raven's Banquet – My Four Buttholes' Season 1 Review.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Q_Zd6SDIPM
Pootie Shoe:
> The Gta team had loads of outspoken characters on it. Most teams were quietly getting on with stuff but this wasn't the way at gta. There were arguments and tempers would flare at times. Maybe colourful people were what was needed to think it was a good idea to make the player a criminal.
and IIRC it was around 2018 when we started hearing about what it was like to work at Rockstar, it was basically a boys club, so the news of the OGs thinking 20-year-old development stories are "ruining the Rockstar mystique" doesn't surprise me at all.
https://kotaku.com/former-rockstar-designer-says-former-top-...
https://www.businessinsider.com/rockstar-games-controversy-e...