“Boys clubs can hire whoever is more capable”

Surely you can see how this logic is absurd. You can’t limit your pool of workers to only “boys” and then claim you’re hiring the most capable people. You will miss out on all the capable people who aren’t “boys”.

Most so-called boys clubs don't limit their hiring to boys. It's just that they don't go out of they way to specifically hire non-boys.

What evidence do you have for that, or are you just pulling it out of your ass?

What games have YOU shipped? Have you worked on a team at Rock Star or EA or any other game development company?

They absolutely do reject people who are “not a culture fit” all the time, how do you think it stays as a boys club? On top of that there’s all the high caliber people who would intentionally avoid applying to work there because of the workplace culture.

You must either acknowledge that boy clubs are more incompetent, or that you believe that boys are inherently more competent. In the latter case there is no point in discussing further.

Those are not the only two options. For example if the distribution of interested candiates is already skewed towards one gender then forcing gender quotas means you need to hire inferior candiates even if both genders have the same distribution of capability.

That said, not only discounting that either gender could be better at certain jobs but refusing to talk to someone because you suspect that may be their opinion is beyond absurd and that kind of politicized gut-based and evidence-fearing thinking may be another reason why organizations that don't pay attention to gender politics are more capable than those that do.

Unbalanced pool of interested candidates is a factor, that's true, but the lack of interest is again a "boys club" syndrome from as early as school. And it's not like this "boys club" only happens at school stage and goes away at the workplace stage.

There are some physical jobs that have some gender bias due to their physicality. Software development is not one of them. This is like debating e.g. covid deniers or whatever nutjobs you will, not worth my time but not evidence fearing.

At a working level boys clubs work well. The culture dives commotion and high levels of cooperation. The problem often arises in management where the Alpha male gets promoted but doesn’t actually have the organizational skills to handle delicate problems or manage work effectively. The resulting management culture becomes toxic and unproductive quickly.

For a short while diverse leadership and management structure was an indicator that companies were promoting based on competence. But once someone realized that that was the case companies started stuffing the pool to pretend they were promoting competency without actually doing that.

I don’t think a non-boy’s-club is necessarily driven by affirmative action…

The fact that you think that’s the only way a non-boy’s-club can exist is rather telling :x

Generally, diversity agendas are poorly veiled attempts to force a given group of people to match census data, regardless of that industries realities such as the number of available graduates, etc.

What's telling to me is male college attendance and graduation are both below female levels and yet everyone still act like men run and rule everything and have every advantage. That is patently untrue.

How the hell does college graduation relate to … men ruling everything?

If someone complains about opportunity, you usually look at statistics for said opportunities to see who's excelling and who isn't.

If men were really as on top of everyone as claimed, we'd dominate in every major avenue of life. But we don't, so it pokes a hole in the narrative.

Socially speaking, we are abondoning men in droves. Boys are not getting the social and emotional upbringing needed to integrate in society, and many people just plain don't want men around.

Serial killers and school shootings are predominantly perpetrated by men. There may be a social component to that. I strongly suggest that not only is there an element, it's the primary reason it happens at all.

Men who feel excluded or taken advantage of will eventually strike back at those they consider responsible for harming them. This can be stopped by proper socialization.

That will never happen though because we're so quick to consider little 10 year old Bobby as a potential rapist. I'm sure that's a healthy environment for men, alongside their peers hating masculinity with no adequate replacement!

The world has a problem with men and it needs to get over it. We're an entire half of the species and we're not fucking going anywhere.

“everyone still acts like men run and rule everything”

Uh have you looked at the Fortune 500? 459 of the companies are run by men.

Women make up only 28% of members of congress.

The world IS still run and ruled by men.

So because there's skewed results at the top, we gotta fuck with the whole group? It's not my fault or your fault that shit's that way at the top. The vast majority of men are just working to pay their bills and live their life like everyone else. Misusing statistics to make it seem like every man has it easy is what I take issue with, because I can straight defy any of those assumptions.

Show me where AVERAGE men have an edge deserving the treatment of a cheat code.

It makes no sense to harm someone because they look like someone else, who misuses their power and status to steamroll others.

Some will claim their actions are equality but can't match those words with proof or evidence. There's just a cultural distaste for white guys because we're all assumed to be living the high life, when we're not. It's simply not fucking true, and I don't care how much hate I get for it. It's founded on prejudice anyway, the same one those people claim to oppose.

If I have it so easy, why has a judge never once acknowledged my legal rights? Why have the police never helped me when I was the victim of crime?

Fuck a society that's comfortable with the angle of discriminating against common men because rich and powerful men have it easy.

We had many female and LGBTQ+ designers and artists working on The Sims because they were excellent at what they did, and their unique perspectives that most straight white men simply didn't have were essential to the game's popularity and success across all genders and ages and cultures, and for you to slanderously claim with no evidence that they were incompetent, chosen because of their gender, or to increase percentages in a report, is idiotic, incorrect, insulting, assinie, and misogynistic.

You seem to be taking the term "boys club" as "straight, white mens club". It can be used for that, but as a casual term it just refers to a group with a shared driving force - e.g shared humour, cultural background, niche interest, experience (experience is where you see specific races or sexualities often forming a "boys club").

There are LGBTQ+ boys clubs (and indeed LGB boys clubs and T boys clubs), as well as age and cultural ones.

Broadly speaking, teams who mesh well produce better outcomes. This often works when a boys club is formed naturally (e.g the old guard who just finished a 2 year project, new hires aren't "in") but can when people are forced into situations where they must get along.

Since you're a racism apologist who defends Musk's anti semitic trolling with bigoted bullshit attacking American Jews like:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38316831

>"Americans Jews seem to have this weird way of crying oppression on any criticism whatsoever." -averageRoyalty, November 18, 2023

It's pretty obvious that you're not a sincere person arguing in good faith, apparently just another zombie Gamergate troll who shouldn't be taken seriously, since you're carrying the water for ignorant misogynistic arguments falsely and unfairly accusing women on game development teams of being incompetent, just like you so recently and gleefully carried the water for Elon Musk's anti semitic white supremacist bullshit.

Read the misogynistic comment I called out that you're defending again, which is as idiotic and bigoted as Musk's anti-semitic troll you also defended, just aimed at disparaging different people:

>"Non-boys clubs give seats to incompetent workers to increase percentages in a report. Boys clubs can hire whoever is more capable with no regard to those percentages." -agbrrw, November 23, 2023

I have first hand experience and objective evidence that non-boys clubs can include competent women and LGBTQ+ people who weren't just hired to increase percentages in a report. What experience do you have with working with a team on a successful game, all boys or not? What games have you shipped? How successful were they, what awards did they win, and how many billions of dollars did they make?

The Sims Franchise Has Made Over $5 Billion In Revenue (And Counting) (2019):

https://www.thegamer.com/the-sims-franchise-revenue-over-5-b...

In case you weren't aware, the fact that there were kissing lesbians in The Sims was instrumental to its break-out success at E3 in 1999. It happened to be designed by a mix of men and women, straight and gay, and Will Wright dedicated to the trans game designer Danielle Bunten Berry. And it sold so well and made so much money for so many years, because it appeals to all genders and orientations, instead of limiting itself to only straight boys like you Gamergate incel apologists angrily and childishly demand.

The Kiss That Changed Video Games:

https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/the-kiss...

So what is your evidence that your bigoted claims are true (including your anti semitic ones, and your misogynistic ones), and that you have the real life experience in the industry to know what you're talking about, and you're not just pulling it out of your ass?

It's always the people who would never be hired to work on a professional team simply because they're insufferable assholes, having nothing to do with their gender or minority status, who whine and complain so bitterly about diversity holding them back and causing all of their problems, usually from the unemployed safety of their mother's basement.

You really need to tone it down and stop writing these long essays full of personal attacks. HN isn't your soapbox to go around insulting people. Do better.

A few points:

- I'm not American and don't understand American-Jewish culture. I understand the common American need to insult and assume about those who dare to ask a question though, thanks for the example.

- I have no idea what "gamergate" is and I've never stated or insinuated women in game development are incompetent. This seems to be your own mental fantasy.

> I have first hand experience and objective evidence that non-boys clubs can include competent women and LGBTQ+ people who weren't just hired to increase percentages in a report.

That's fine. The GP wasn't speaking absolutely - that non-boys clubs don't work ever. They were stating the freedom to hire the person who clicks (who can be of any gender, race, sexuality, etc) - as opposed to enforced poor fits to tick a box - will often result in better outcomes. Nobody, anywhere here is saying women or LGBTQI+ people (who you're the one who brought up, by the way) can't be competent .

> What experience do you have with working with a team on a successful game, all boys or not? What games have you shipped? How successful were they, what awards did they win, and how many billions of dollars did they make?

Team building and delivery success aren't a unique concept to the games industry. I'm unsure why you want a pissing contest though.

> In case you weren't aware, the fact that there were kissing lesbians in The Sims was instrumental to its break-out success at E3 in 1999. It happened to be designed by a mix of men and women, straight and gay, and Will Wright dedicated to the trans game designer Danielle Bunten Berry. And it sold so well and made so much money for so many years, because it appeals to all genders and orientations

Good. Are you looking for praise here? Well done. I have no issue with that, only the strawman you've conducted does.

> instead of limiting itself to only straight boys like you Gamergate incel apologists angrily and childishly demand.

Ah ok, you're just a cunt. Got it. Anyone who has a difference of opinion to me is an incel.

I've not at any point complained about diversity holding anyone back, I don't believe women or queer prople are incompetent, and you need to get your psych to up your dosage my dude. I understand you sound noble in your head, but you're presenting like a crazy person on the street screaming at strangers about the rapture.

That's all unmitigated bullshit. If you don't understand American-Jewish culture, then why are you making sweeping racist generalizations about them:

"Americans Jews seem to have this weird way of crying oppression on any criticism whatsoever." -averageRoyalty, November 18, 2023

Saying racist shit then pretending to be ignorant and incapable of understanding what your own words mean doesn't fly. We all already know you're ignorant because you say racist and sexist shit, and none of your arguments hold any water, but that doesn't absolve you from being racist and sexist.

I'm discussing a religious group, I'm unsure why race is even relevant here?

In the context of the full comment, it's pretty clear I'm asking a question. My personal experience is that the American Jewish community seem to not handle criticism well at all, and any slight against them is marked as oppressive. I then asked for more information.

I'm unaware of anywhere I've brought up sex or race. Again, you're the one talking about those, not me.