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Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by shever73 on Friday November 03, 2023 @03:12AM (#38125477)
> there really is such a thing as a person with a lot of book-learning but less common sense than a sea slug

I don't even think SBF had the book-learning, just intellectual arrogance. "I don’t want to say no book is ever worth reading, but I actually do believe something pretty close to that. I think, if you wrote a book, you f---ed up, and it should have been a six-paragraph blog post."

Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by salty_biscuits on Friday November 03, 2023 @03:36AM (#38125630)
I had to search to check that the quote was real, that is some spectacular hubris!
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by Zanni on Friday November 03, 2023 @05:54AM (#38126490)
If you like that, you should hear what he had to say about Shakespeare:

"I could go on and on about the failings of Shakespeare ... but I really shouldn't need to: the Bayesian priors are pretty damning. About half the people born since 1600 have been born in the past 100 years, but it gets much worse than that. When Shakespeare wrote almost all Europeans were busy farming, and very few attended university; few people were even literate—probably as low as ten million people. By contrast there are now upwards of a billion literate people in the Western sphere. What are the odds that the greatest writer would have been born in 1564? The Bayesian priors aren't very favorable." [Going Infinite, p29]

Now I get that Shakespeare doesn't appeal to everyone and is definitely an acquired taste, but to judge his work on probability when the work itself is right there to judge on its own merits is like the joke about an economist who sees a hundred dollar bill on the street and says, "If that were a real bill, someone would already have picked it up."

He also dismisses the "plot twist" in Much Ado About Nothing (when Beatrice asks Benedick to kill Claudio) as "illogical" and the province of characters who are "one-dimensional and unrealistic" because "I mean, come on—kill someone because ... his fiancée is cheating on him?" As if no actual human being had ever killed out of jealousy, when it's usually one of the main motives for murder. It's like he's visiting from another planet or something.

Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by RandomLensman on Friday November 03, 2023 @06:43AM (#38126780)
Luckily, he wasn't asked about Homer. The Bayesian prior there would have been damning!
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by zero_k on Friday November 03, 2023 @07:26AM (#38127145)
Hahahahaha good point!
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by hef19898 on Friday November 03, 2023 @06:57AM (#38126872)
Well, we can be really sure that SBF wont change after being convicted.
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by taylorius on Friday November 03, 2023 @06:58AM (#38126894)
"I could go on and on about the failings of Shakespeare ... but I really shouldn't need to: the Bayesian priors are pretty damning."

I don't mean to lower the tone, but honestly - what an absolute bell-end!

Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by caboteria on Friday November 03, 2023 @09:10AM (#38128181)
> It's like he's visiting from another planet or something.

He's visiting from planet Adderall. If you have $26 in your pocket then you're a tweaker but make it $26B and you're an eccentric genius.

Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by lubesGordi on Friday November 03, 2023 @09:59AM (#38128852)
That's really insightful into how this guy works. He's judging everything off probabilities to an egregious degree. He's also utilitarian, which doesn't really offer a foundation for any kind of morality because there's no provision against the ends justifying the means.
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by mejutoco on Friday November 03, 2023 @04:01AM (#38125784)
The craziest thing to me is that when he was saying things like that noone in the mainstream media was questioning him. The FT had a very flattering lunch interview with him shortly before his demise. It was embarrassing how they were portraying him.
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by xwolfi on Friday November 03, 2023 @04:21AM (#38125906)
But you had Zeke Faux, a specialist, going there, looking at SBF screen and seeing nothing too special too.

Blame the "mainstream media" all you want but as long as we refuse (for good reason) to give audit power to journalists, mainstream or specialist, you'll keep reading positive pieces about frauds if they stay hidden purposefully.

I'm not sure why you would have wanted to NYT to destroy every company it interviews just for the sake of it. Wouldnt they need proof ? And how do you get them, when they're hidden by a conspiracy ?

Plus, the police in the US, Hong Kong and the Bahamas found nothing and waited for Coindesk to publish a leak by CZ, a competitor, to start looking...

I say that because at the peak of the crypto fever I couldnt distinguish SBF from, say, the CEO of Kraken, and I suspect it's hindsight convincing you something could have been done.

Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by mejutoco on Friday November 03, 2023 @04:51AM (#38126097)
I don't suggest to "destroy" any company, or to say they are guilty of things without proof.

The FT did an impressive investigation of Wirecard, for example. There is a difference between destroying a company and making a couple of common sense questions instead of parroting whatever the interviewee wants. Some basic journalistic practices. It is really not so much to ask.

EDIT: interviewer/interviewee

Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by xwolfi on Friday November 03, 2023 @06:17AM (#38126630)
Agreed but we only ask that after the conspiracy was revealed and honestly it's so mindblowingly stupid it's hard to imagine anyone could have thought they used QuickBooks or just thad no accountant.

Again you re asking someth that had been done several times: many people did dig a bit deeper and couldnt find the Alameda hole or the real balance sheets, or the parents siphoning millions and all that stuff that took even time for prosecutors to find.

The role of the media isnt to uncover fraud I think, it's to give you a chance to expose one if you know one. If nobody was willing to talk, what s a journo gonna do?

Carreyrou, a personal hero, had tons of witnesses coming to him for instance.

Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by nikster on Friday November 03, 2023 @05:01AM (#38126162)
It's all pointing to one thing: He was "their" guy. Whoever they are.

You don't become a media darling. get billions in investment, and work tirelessly for the greater agenda, by accident.

Someone was in charge of him. Now to him, that might have looked like a range of advisors due to his overinflated ego and lack of intelligence to figure out that he is actually being tightly controlled. In some way he was the perfect puppet, if only he had been a little less of a criminal...

One thing he was used for is to destroy Luna - and I am 100% sure that wasn't his idea either, that attack was extremely sophisticated and done by someone very intelligent. ie, not SBF. But they used FTX and SBF to pull it off.

FTX always seemed like it was set up to control and if necessary destroy crypto.

Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by RandomLensman on Friday November 03, 2023 @05:25AM (#38126316)
Why would there be a greater agenda? Who would have been the owner of that agenda and why?
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by hef19898 on Friday November 03, 2023 @05:44AM (#38126430)
This conspiratorial BS is where crypto bros and right wing conspiracy nuts start to overlap.
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by davidwritesbugs on Friday November 03, 2023 @07:11AM (#38127026)
I think conspiracy nutjobs, like this guy, have now learnt not to say "he's controlled by the Lizard People" out loud
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by hef19898 on Friday November 03, 2023 @07:20AM (#38127098)
Not talking about OP, explicitly not, but sometimes it is worse than Lizard People...
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by mensetmanusman on Friday November 03, 2023 @08:58AM (#38128013)
Ummm, the government literally charged him with 7 counts of conspiracy in regards to the political donations.

https://www.reuters.com/legal/bankman-fried-used-customer-fu...

Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by hef19898 on Friday November 03, 2023 @10:41AM (#38129524)
So?
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by olalonde on Friday November 03, 2023 @05:45AM (#38126437)
Maybe not the mainstream media but I feel like a lot people, especially in the Bitcoin community, were suspicious of him. He just screamed grifter to me. I never really bought his arbitrage story either and wouldn't be surprised if that was not his first scam.

Here's an interview he gave a few months before the FTX collapse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6nAxiym9oc

Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by roland35 on Friday November 03, 2023 @05:56AM (#38126500)
The arbitrage story definitely seems bogus. People have been aware of difference in bitcoin price across Asia since like the beginning of bitcoin - I don't think it is any huge billion $ opportunity.

Now Tether on the other hand.. I would not be surprised if that has a lot to do with it.

Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by olalonde on Friday November 03, 2023 @06:09AM (#38126585)
I was running an arbitrage bot well before he claims to have started arbitrage and even back then, it was competitive enough that there weren't tons of money to be made, especially considering all the risks and costs involved. In those days, a relatively common scam involved setting up an investment scheme that promised high returns thanks to "arbitrage trading" (but which was really just a ponzi scheme). I wouldn't be surprised if he was involved in something like that.
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by eiirv33 on Friday November 03, 2023 @10:31PM (#38137568)
Maybe you did, but check the subreddit for bitcoin and cryptocurrency for posts before the FTX collapse. The prevailing sentiment, I recall, was that FTX was less scammy than competitors such as Celsius and Voyager, because the rewards for staking on FTX wasn't quite as absurd as the others. I think a lot of crypto investors thought Sam was the real deal, and that's one reason why they were able to attract so many customers.
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by michaelt on Friday November 03, 2023 @05:48AM (#38126456)
> The craziest thing to me is that when he was saying things like that noone in the mainstream media was questioning him.

Well, what's the difference between an unhinged, drug-addled loony and an eccentric visionary genius?

The difference is having $26 billion.

Why not call him out on what seems like bullshit? That bullshit has convinced "informed" tech investors like Softbank and Sequoia Capital. And elsewhere at the same time, Andreessen Horowitz is investing $450 million in ape jpegs.

This is absolutely gourmet, Grade A, top quality wagyu bullshit.

Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by hnbad on Friday November 03, 2023 @06:15AM (#38126617)
To be frank, the value proposition of those investments was never what the companies claimed they did but how much money they could bring in before going bust. And of course some of those companies were also useful by fostering acceptance of ideas those investors benefit from: for example, a big part of the "blockchain" and "smart contracts" narrative was privatization (or "democratization") of government functions (e.g. managing land deeds, educational certifications and other claims).

Not to mention that a big part of investing in start ups is just ape jpegs with extra steps (i.e. "greater fool" theory).

Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by tim333 on Friday November 03, 2023 @07:05AM (#38126956)
He came very close to getting away with it all. If the investments had panned out a little differently he would have been able to stay solvent and no one would have really noticed the regulation breaking.
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by RandomLensman on Friday November 03, 2023 @07:32AM (#38127193)
That kind of assumes a change in behavior and that any number of other things wouldn't eventually trip things up.
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by meepmorp on Friday November 03, 2023 @10:14AM (#38129069)
Exactly. Evading disaster doesn't make someone like this reconsider their decision making process and act smarter next time, it shows them that they're a goddamn genius who can do no wrong.
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by SilasX on Friday November 03, 2023 @11:36AM (#38130394)
Right, and assumes he didn't abandon the Kelly Criterion for the mentality of "keep playing double-or-nothing even when you win":

>>Bankman-Fried’s error was an extreme hubris that led him to bite bullets he never should have bitten. He famously told economist Tyler Cowen in a podcast interview that if faced with a game where “51 percent [of the time], you double the Earth out somewhere else; 49 percent, it all disappears,” he’d keep playing the game continually.

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/23500014/effective-altrui...

Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by mangamadaiyan on Friday November 03, 2023 @07:06AM (#38126976)
Upvoted for usage of the term "wagyu bullshit". It conveys a world of meaning in two words :)
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by FFP999 on Friday November 03, 2023 @09:58AM (#38128839)
> Well, what's the difference between an unhinged, drug-addled loony and an eccentric visionary genius?

One big factor is who your parents are. SBF coming from an upper-class background, that tilts the scales towards eccentric genius. After all, we know that the children of these families are all extremely special.

Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by Karellen on Friday November 03, 2023 @11:44AM (#38130512)
> NO! Poor people are crazy, Jack. I'm eccentric.

-- Howard Payne (Dennis Hopper), Speed, 1994

Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by nytesky on Friday November 03, 2023 @05:57AM (#38126504)
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by kgwgk on Friday November 03, 2023 @09:08AM (#38128158)
They were deliberately misled and lied to - there’s nothing they could have done to prevent that!

https://twitter.com/Alfred_Lin/status/1720240388311810382

Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by tiahura on Friday November 03, 2023 @09:50AM (#38128739)
I’m at a loss for how to process that tweet.

Is he just completely incapable of reading the room, or is it a lvl 10 cynical FU?

Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by nytesky on Friday November 03, 2023 @10:05AM (#38128942)
Honestly my completely outside the valley impression is that VC operates a lot on pedigree and connections.

SBF has an impeccable pedigree, so the thought that he was a Michael Fenne type was never even considered. Why would he lie, when he could live an honest life and be fabulously rich and comfortable (Jane St, wealthy connected parents, etc)

Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by FFP999 on Friday November 03, 2023 @10:25AM (#38129247)
Not too different from the case of Elizabeth Holmes, when you frame it like that.
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by 300bps on Friday November 03, 2023 @09:15AM (#38128247)
I knew the embarrassment level was going to be turned up to 11 when your link was to archive.org.
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by AutumnCurtain on Friday November 03, 2023 @09:33AM (#38128488)
Wow. Hagiographic would be an understatement
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by zelphirkalt on Friday November 03, 2023 @07:29AM (#38127171)
It is mainstream culture to not question (at least temporarily) financially successful businessmen. Financial success in the eyes of many must mean, that they are doing something right. But that "something" quickly is left out and the conclusion becomes "doing all things right". Basically ethics is supplanted by how capitalism works.

It is not brought up too often, that often one of the most important differences between them and the viewer of mainstream media is, that this person is vastly more ruthless with regards to ethics.

Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by gardenhedge on Friday November 03, 2023 @08:32AM (#38127764)
People like people who talk a lot. It's that simple.
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by greg7mdp on Friday November 03, 2023 @08:33AM (#38127776)
Elon Musk says idiotic stuff all the time and people revere him.
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by FFP999 on Friday November 03, 2023 @10:26AM (#38129268)
Hey, Musk did one thing right: he picked fabulously wealthy parents.
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by ralfd on Friday November 03, 2023 @11:32AM (#38130341)
https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/book-review-elon-musk

> Musk claims to be self-made; he moved to Canada at age 17 with $2500 and worked his way up from there. For a while he supported himself by cutting logs, Abe Lincoln style. Nobody paid for his college and he took out $100,000 in debt. Musk’s father invested $28,000 in his first company, but Musk dismissed this as a “later round” and claimed he was already successful at that point and would have gotten the money anyway. The total for that round was $200,000, so Musk’s father’s contribution was only about 15%.

> Obviously there’s still some sense where he benefited from a privileged upbringing or whatever, but in a purely business sense he’s mostly self-made.

Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by smegger001 on Friday November 03, 2023 @10:58AM (#38129781)
The difference being Elon has a history of multiple successful business and products. And didn't defraud anyone in the process. (Note he is still a narcissistic asshole but he is a successful narcissistic ass and we generally value competence higher than personality)
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by eiirv33 on Friday November 03, 2023 @10:27PM (#38137547)
Think that's crazy? Read what HN commenters were saying about FTX before the collapse. There were skeptics, for sure. But plenty of people here who thought sam was smart, good at business, and more prudent and above board than other crypto CEOs. Many users here have a blindspot when it comes to detecting bullshit. Sam reminded us of ourselves, so we believed him.
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by dmoo on Friday November 03, 2023 @04:07AM (#38125815)
That’s an unfortunate attitude for a guy looking at a stretch with not a lot to pass the time…
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by FFP999 on Friday November 03, 2023 @10:13AM (#38129055)
Maybe they'll let him play LOL in prison. But I kind of doubt it.
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by rezonant on Friday November 03, 2023 @04:41AM (#38126029)
If he read more, it's possible his spoken grammar might not be so atrocious.
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by FFP999 on Friday November 03, 2023 @09:51AM (#38128744)
As I mention in a thread below I'm using "book-smart" as a concise idiomatic way of saying "educated and talented in a traditional academic field", such as mathematics in this case. Kind of unfortunate that I had forgotten that SBF is not actually a big reader. But he did graduate from MIT: perhaps they'll let him hang his diploma on the wall of his cell.
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by jimmydddd on Friday November 03, 2023 @10:07AM (#38128975)
This is true for many non-fiction and business books. :-)
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by FFP999 on Friday November 03, 2023 @10:27AM (#38129285)
But on the other hand, I can think of a few books that really might have helped him. The Emperor's New Clothes, and also Extraordinary Popular Delusions And The Madness Of Crowds (dated now, still a good read).
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty on all charges by LargeTomato on Friday November 03, 2023 @11:26AM (#38130225)
He seems smart and excellent at everything he sets his mind to. He just opted to set his mind to math and things that relate to math. That's an easy way to grow up and become a jerk.