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Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by londons_explore on Sunday October 29, 2023 @02:14PM (#38061127)
Such a project would see no tangible benefits for tens of thousands of years.

Unfortunately, humans tend not to put much effort into anything that has no benefits within ~100 years. "If neither me nor my children will benefit from something, I don't want to invest my time/money."

Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by Levitz on Sunday October 29, 2023 @02:22PM (#38061204)
That makes sense though. I can hardly imagine any effort put 10.000 years ago that would be valuable now, with the technological difference.
Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by reactordev on Sunday October 29, 2023 @02:31PM (#38061269)
Yeah humans can measure progress afterwards but are terrible planners for anything beyond ourselves and next of kin.
Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by bobthepanda on Sunday October 29, 2023 @02:40PM (#38061345)
I mean, how would you even do maintenance over 10,000 years?

At some point your descendants will be too far to remember the reason but not far enough to need it and they’ll stop wasting resources on a nothing activity.

Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by withinboredom on Sunday October 29, 2023 @02:56PM (#38061486)
People still do some maintenance on the 8k year old Afghanistan water system (underground aqueducts) because they are still used today. I’m failing to find some good sources, but when I was there in 2008, it was something the Army Core of Engineers was investigating on my base.
Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by bobthepanda on Sunday October 29, 2023 @02:57PM (#38061510)
That solves an immediate need though, not a once in a few ten thousand year disaster.
Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by kaz-inc on Sunday October 29, 2023 @06:48PM (#38063625)
this[1] places them at 3k years old: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qanat
Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by withinboredom on Sunday October 29, 2023 @06:54PM (#38063664)
That sounds more right to me than a memory of some random conversations from nearly 20 years ago.
Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by SV_BubbleTime on Sunday October 29, 2023 @03:05PM (#38061568)
You could write exactly what this is and what you’re supposed to do with it on a big stone plate outside…

Then in 10,000 years, find that an entire religion, culture, and wars were built around the simple maintenance instructions.

Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by bobthepanda on Sunday October 29, 2023 @03:27PM (#38061762)
Outside, on Mars.

So we have to assume we will maintain the ability for human Mars travel in ten thousand years, that anyone can read English or whatever in ten thousand years, and that the supporting religion didn’t lose any of its wars.

To put this in perspective our first evidence of any human agriculture was 12,000 years ago.

Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by hattmall on Monday October 30, 2023 @12:16AM (#38065622)
Yeah, maybe, ever heard of the Georgia guidestones? They lasted ~ 30 years...
Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by blamestross on Sunday October 29, 2023 @02:31PM (#38061274)
Progress is exponential until "surprise it is a sigmoid!" I'd argue we are there already, but even if we aren't planting seeds is rarely a waste in the long term.
Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by dehrmann on Sunday October 29, 2023 @04:51PM (#38062658)
Only 5,000, but look at the pyramids. They're cool to look at, and the construction is fun to think about, but they're utterly useless. For any sort of 10,000 year space project, there's little (1%) harm in having a 100-year cool-off period to see if it still makes sense and how far technology has come.
Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by pchristensen on Sunday October 29, 2023 @05:14PM (#38062879)
Road networks in cities are probably the most durable creations.
Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by yincrash on Sunday October 29, 2023 @02:19PM (#38061175)
Wouldn't it still protect humans who visit (or stay on) Mars from the solar radiation?
Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by fnordpiglet on Sunday October 29, 2023 @03:21PM (#38061696)
I’m not sure I understand why you think this would take 10’s of thousands of years to yield benefit. The most important benefit is shielding the planet surface from solar radiation and cosmic rays. This would be immediately beneficial to anyone living on the surface and would be essential in any terraforming effort of any duration, long or short. There are proposals that terraform mars in the span of a few generations (orbital solar powered large lasers evaporating the iron oxide and melting the ice for instance). But even without terraforming making the surface less hostile has immediate benefits.
Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by Loughla on Sunday October 29, 2023 @05:12PM (#38062863)
All of the terraforming business always seems like just digging around in your belly button.

We can't even fix the problems on our first planet. How (and why) can we even begin to think about another one?

Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by mortehu on Sunday October 29, 2023 @05:40PM (#38063090)
We have solved countless problems on our planet. What are "the problems" you are thinking of?
Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by sgu999 on Sunday October 29, 2023 @09:51PM (#38064843)
Green house gases emissions and the collapse of biodiversity are two reasonably conservative examples
Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by simondotau on Sunday October 29, 2023 @11:21PM (#38065331)
We have solutions for those problems on Earth, the difficulty is implementing the solutions. And that's a political and sociological problem, not an engineering and logistics problem. The engineers and logistics people can work on Mars while the politicians and sociologists work on Earth.

(Not to mention that solving Mars problems are likely to yield novel solutions to Earth problems, ones which we might never discover without thinking about things with an unusual perspective.)

Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by sgu999 on Monday October 30, 2023 @12:49AM (#38065802)
Given the radical changes that a carbon neutral and eco-friendly modern civilisation would require, reducing that to technical problems in each field is really not helpful. By and large we know how a sustainable society could work, we are simply unable to implement it at the right scale. I wouldn't call that "solved".
Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by simondotau on Monday October 30, 2023 @03:26AM (#38066569)
Your second sentence is correct and invalidates your first sentence. We don't need any "radical changes," we only need to implement existing solutions at the right scale. Once we have enough solar panels, wind turbines and battery cells, a tipping point is reached where the cost of renewable energy plummets so hard that fossil fuel energy becomes catastrophically uneconomical.

Economics will singlehandedly take care of the "radical change" you seek.

And wouldn't you know it, these existing solutions are already on an exponential growth curve and cost decline. They have been for ages. We're on the right path right now; sadly most people find it difficult to think beyond linear growth.

---

[To be clear, here I am responding to the challenge of bringing greenhouse gases emissions to a level which ends the rise of global CO2. It's a solved problem with lag time. The collapse of biodiversity is the political and sociological problem I referred to in a previous post.]

Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by sgu999 on Monday October 30, 2023 @06:07AM (#38067505)
> We don't need any "radical changes," we only need to implement existing solutions at the right scale

Scale is the problem.

> Once we have enough solar panels, wind turbines and battery cells, a tipping point is reached where the cost of renewable energy plummets so hard that fossil fuel energy becomes catastrophically uneconomical

The radical change I'm referring to is the drastic cut in energy consumption to make renewables work at our current scale. I suggest you have a look at the latest IPCC report [0]: we won't be carbon neutral without reducing our energy consumption, not "simply" replacing a source by another for each use, reducing it. That means doing less things, which no one plans on doing.

Not even to mention that some non negligible parts of our economy don't have a technical solution yet, the aviation industry for instance.

> a solved problem with lag time

I don't understand what you mean by that as it seems we are not on the right trajectory to avoid a catastrophic outcome...

[0] https://www.ipcc.ch/report/sixth-assessment-report-cycle/

Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by simondotau on Monday October 30, 2023 @08:57AM (#38068913)
> The radical change I'm referring to is the drastic cut in energy consumption to make renewables work at our current scale.

Unnecessary. You’re thinking linearly. We don’t need to cut energy consumption, it will be met and exceeded by the current exponential growth of renewables and storage. The “we have to do less” crowd are wrong and bad at math.

Aviation isn’t a solved problem yet but that’s still less than 3 percent of fossil fuel sourced greenhouse gas emissions. There are far more pressing concerns like banning domestic fireplaces.

I would be more concerned about the ocean shipping industry, one which is just screaming out for nuclearisation, but of course that would be protested by ignorant faux-environmentalists who care more about telling others what to do than what’s actually good for the planet. (For some light entertainment, read up about fractional distillation and learn about exactly what it is most cargo ships burn. It ain’t avgas, that’s for sure. But nobody cares because intercontinental trade doesn’t work as well as commercial aviation as a target for class warfare.)

> That means doing less things, which no one plans on doing.

No one plans on doing that right now. But once we divert the attention of astrochemists away from studying the terraforming of Mars and towards the intersection of politics and sociology, I’m sure they’ll come up with the solution.

> it seems we are not on the right trajectory

It would seem that way if you think linearly.

Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by sgu999 on Monday October 30, 2023 @12:02PM (#38071276)
> The “we have to do less” crowd are wrong and bad at math.

Physics, not maths. You can sustain exponential growth as much as you want without physical limits. If that's where your confusion comes from, you can read some vintage Meadows.

> It would seem that way if you think linearly.

Even the optimistic scenarii put us in a bad position... ignore evidence as much as you want, it won't make it true.

Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by simondotau on Monday October 30, 2023 @05:33PM (#38076219)
Maths, not physics. They're thinking linearly when the curve is exponential.
Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by nayuki on Sunday October 29, 2023 @11:27PM (#38065370)
I can think of a few: Petroleum replaced whale hunting, cars replaced horses pooping on streets, we finally eliminated lead in gasoline, we significantly reduced acid rain (NOx and SOx), we eliminated CFCs once they were shown to damage the ozone layer.
Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by c22 on Sunday October 29, 2023 @05:29PM (#38063013)
I guess if we do develop terraforming technologies I'd rather we test them on Mars first.
Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by wiseowise on Sunday October 29, 2023 @05:18PM (#38062920)
There’s a lot why’s to do that. How is the question.
Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by bsder on Sunday October 29, 2023 @05:47PM (#38063142)
> We can't even fix the problems on our first planet. How (and why) can we even begin to think about another one?

For precisely this reason?

We can't stop asteroid impacts. We can't stop a well-adapted plague, either (Ref: Covidiots). We have dictators with nuclear weapons that we can't stop. etc.

Having a self-sufficient colony somewhere other than Terra is almost certainly the first step toward avoiding a "Great Filter" event.

Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by api on Sunday October 29, 2023 @05:54PM (#38063215)
> We can't even fix the problems on our first planet. How (and why) can we even begin to think about another one?

By this logic we never go. There will always be giant seemingly insurmountable problems. If we solve climate change there will just be another, and another, and another. Life is a never ending fight against entropy. There will never be a time when we have it all figured out.

Secondly it’s entirely possible that the stuff we learn trying to survive off world will be applicable to making life here more sustainable. It could force us to figure out how to run industry efficiently with a very high percentage of material recycled, and how to run an economy without a lot of low entropy ecosystem to draw from. Also no fossil fuel. They don’t exist. We’d only have nuclear and solar really.

Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by fnordpiglet on Sunday October 29, 2023 @05:57PM (#38063248)
Because life deserves redundancy?
Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by thejackgoode on Sunday October 29, 2023 @04:29PM (#38062424)
A hundred years? I feel like 90% of what happens is done because of election cycles and quarterly reports
Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by londons_explore on Sunday October 29, 2023 @04:47PM (#38062612)
People build bridges today that are expected to still be standing in 100 years.

They could have made it a bit weaker, not bothered with paint or inspection hatches, and saved a little money, and had it only last 25 years...

The time-value of money says that any benefit 25+ years from now is almost worthless, so it probably wasn't worth spending anything on those things to make the bridge last longer.

Yet in most cases we still tend to build it to last 100 years, despite the economist saying it isn't worth it.

Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by moffkalast on Sunday October 29, 2023 @05:08PM (#38062809)
Probably not the best example since once a bridge is built you can immediately use it, the benefits don't only start rolling in after a 100 years. Making sure something lasts is correlated with natural disaster safety margins anyway so if it has to be built to survive near term extremes it'll generally also survive a while as a side effect. Older constructions also seemingly last longer through survivorship bias and the lack of computer modelling at the time meant that safety margins had to be higher.

A better example are maybe tree avenues that take decades to grow into anything useful, or maybe long term river redirection projects or reactors. ITER's still in construction after 16 years. But there's just about nothing we do that would take more than a few decades to start showing returns.

Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by elliotto on Sunday October 29, 2023 @06:18PM (#38063415)
I'm not sure what the rules are in the US but in Australia the infrastructure service life is set by regulation. It's not an economic / financial argument or even a benevolence / moral argument that causes this, it's a legal requirement. There are significant real world advantages of having a bridge last more than 25 years that are not reflected by a financial return on investment.
Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by ozim on Sunday October 29, 2023 @06:45PM (#38063599)
I don’t think we really have most bridges built to last 100 years. What I see most is built to last 50 years and then usually it is stretched by patching/fixes or ignoring the issues as those will be passed on to whoever is in charge politically when a bridge finally fails.
Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by Elucalidavah on Monday October 30, 2023 @01:47AM (#38066100)
To fix that, we need humans that actually expect to live for tens of thousands of years.