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Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by Loughla on Sunday October 29, 2023 @05:12PM (#38062863)
All of the terraforming business always seems like just digging around in your belly button.

We can't even fix the problems on our first planet. How (and why) can we even begin to think about another one?

Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by mortehu on Sunday October 29, 2023 @05:40PM (#38063090)
We have solved countless problems on our planet. What are "the problems" you are thinking of?
Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by sgu999 on Sunday October 29, 2023 @09:51PM (#38064843)
Green house gases emissions and the collapse of biodiversity are two reasonably conservative examples
Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by simondotau on Sunday October 29, 2023 @11:21PM (#38065331)
We have solutions for those problems on Earth, the difficulty is implementing the solutions. And that's a political and sociological problem, not an engineering and logistics problem. The engineers and logistics people can work on Mars while the politicians and sociologists work on Earth.

(Not to mention that solving Mars problems are likely to yield novel solutions to Earth problems, ones which we might never discover without thinking about things with an unusual perspective.)

Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by sgu999 on Monday October 30, 2023 @12:49AM (#38065802)
Given the radical changes that a carbon neutral and eco-friendly modern civilisation would require, reducing that to technical problems in each field is really not helpful. By and large we know how a sustainable society could work, we are simply unable to implement it at the right scale. I wouldn't call that "solved".
Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by simondotau on Monday October 30, 2023 @03:26AM (#38066569)
Your second sentence is correct and invalidates your first sentence. We don't need any "radical changes," we only need to implement existing solutions at the right scale. Once we have enough solar panels, wind turbines and battery cells, a tipping point is reached where the cost of renewable energy plummets so hard that fossil fuel energy becomes catastrophically uneconomical.

Economics will singlehandedly take care of the "radical change" you seek.

And wouldn't you know it, these existing solutions are already on an exponential growth curve and cost decline. They have been for ages. We're on the right path right now; sadly most people find it difficult to think beyond linear growth.

---

[To be clear, here I am responding to the challenge of bringing greenhouse gases emissions to a level which ends the rise of global CO2. It's a solved problem with lag time. The collapse of biodiversity is the political and sociological problem I referred to in a previous post.]

Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by sgu999 on Monday October 30, 2023 @06:07AM (#38067505)
> We don't need any "radical changes," we only need to implement existing solutions at the right scale

Scale is the problem.

> Once we have enough solar panels, wind turbines and battery cells, a tipping point is reached where the cost of renewable energy plummets so hard that fossil fuel energy becomes catastrophically uneconomical

The radical change I'm referring to is the drastic cut in energy consumption to make renewables work at our current scale. I suggest you have a look at the latest IPCC report [0]: we won't be carbon neutral without reducing our energy consumption, not "simply" replacing a source by another for each use, reducing it. That means doing less things, which no one plans on doing.

Not even to mention that some non negligible parts of our economy don't have a technical solution yet, the aviation industry for instance.

> a solved problem with lag time

I don't understand what you mean by that as it seems we are not on the right trajectory to avoid a catastrophic outcome...

[0] https://www.ipcc.ch/report/sixth-assessment-report-cycle/

Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by simondotau on Monday October 30, 2023 @08:57AM (#38068913)
> The radical change I'm referring to is the drastic cut in energy consumption to make renewables work at our current scale.

Unnecessary. You’re thinking linearly. We don’t need to cut energy consumption, it will be met and exceeded by the current exponential growth of renewables and storage. The “we have to do less” crowd are wrong and bad at math.

Aviation isn’t a solved problem yet but that’s still less than 3 percent of fossil fuel sourced greenhouse gas emissions. There are far more pressing concerns like banning domestic fireplaces.

I would be more concerned about the ocean shipping industry, one which is just screaming out for nuclearisation, but of course that would be protested by ignorant faux-environmentalists who care more about telling others what to do than what’s actually good for the planet. (For some light entertainment, read up about fractional distillation and learn about exactly what it is most cargo ships burn. It ain’t avgas, that’s for sure. But nobody cares because intercontinental trade doesn’t work as well as commercial aviation as a target for class warfare.)

> That means doing less things, which no one plans on doing.

No one plans on doing that right now. But once we divert the attention of astrochemists away from studying the terraforming of Mars and towards the intersection of politics and sociology, I’m sure they’ll come up with the solution.

> it seems we are not on the right trajectory

It would seem that way if you think linearly.

Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by sgu999 on Monday October 30, 2023 @12:02PM (#38071276)
> The “we have to do less” crowd are wrong and bad at math.

Physics, not maths. You can sustain exponential growth as much as you want without physical limits. If that's where your confusion comes from, you can read some vintage Meadows.

> It would seem that way if you think linearly.

Even the optimistic scenarii put us in a bad position... ignore evidence as much as you want, it won't make it true.

Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by simondotau on Monday October 30, 2023 @05:33PM (#38076219)
Maths, not physics. They're thinking linearly when the curve is exponential.
Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by nayuki on Sunday October 29, 2023 @11:27PM (#38065370)
I can think of a few: Petroleum replaced whale hunting, cars replaced horses pooping on streets, we finally eliminated lead in gasoline, we significantly reduced acid rain (NOx and SOx), we eliminated CFCs once they were shown to damage the ozone layer.
Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by c22 on Sunday October 29, 2023 @05:29PM (#38063013)
I guess if we do develop terraforming technologies I'd rather we test them on Mars first.
Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by wiseowise on Sunday October 29, 2023 @05:18PM (#38062920)
There’s a lot why’s to do that. How is the question.
Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by bsder on Sunday October 29, 2023 @05:47PM (#38063142)
> We can't even fix the problems on our first planet. How (and why) can we even begin to think about another one?

For precisely this reason?

We can't stop asteroid impacts. We can't stop a well-adapted plague, either (Ref: Covidiots). We have dictators with nuclear weapons that we can't stop. etc.

Having a self-sufficient colony somewhere other than Terra is almost certainly the first step toward avoiding a "Great Filter" event.

Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by api on Sunday October 29, 2023 @05:54PM (#38063215)
> We can't even fix the problems on our first planet. How (and why) can we even begin to think about another one?

By this logic we never go. There will always be giant seemingly insurmountable problems. If we solve climate change there will just be another, and another, and another. Life is a never ending fight against entropy. There will never be a time when we have it all figured out.

Secondly it’s entirely possible that the stuff we learn trying to survive off world will be applicable to making life here more sustainable. It could force us to figure out how to run industry efficiently with a very high percentage of material recycled, and how to run an economy without a lot of low entropy ecosystem to draw from. Also no fossil fuel. They don’t exist. We’d only have nuclear and solar really.

Re:Mars Lost Its Magnetic Field – and Then Its Oceans by fnordpiglet on Sunday October 29, 2023 @05:57PM (#38063248)
Because life deserves redundancy?