News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by tw04 on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @09:13PM (#38020532)
> We can't have the future because it slightly inconveniences the present and ruffles the feathers of developers fired from Twitter.

Or because he constantly stomps on experienced engineers with stupid ideas and puts the whole thing at risk. Literally EVERYONE said the cement base was a stupid idea and yet Elon had to trump his own experts.

Every time he forces his idiotic ideas on his engineers he puts the future of the whole business at risk. At least he’s been so distracted by the Twitter debacle the adults have been able to make decisions without having to cater to his ego and make him think the idea was his.

Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by ethagknight on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @09:16PM (#38020547)
"Idiotic ideas", you are that person.

Twitter is better than ever, Tesla is doing great, spacex is amazing. Where the hell am I?? isnt this hacker friggin news, not Soviet socialist republic.

Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by huytersd on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @10:19PM (#38020928)
Tesla is doing great, SpaceX has always been amazing. Twitter is failing. Elon Musk becomes less respectable by the day.
Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by doubleg72 on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @10:30PM (#38021008)
You must have missed TSLA last week earning call…
Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by huytersd on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @10:53PM (#38021136)
I didn’t. I still think they have enough of a moat for 5-10 years and beyond especially since they own the vast majority of the now standard NACS charging stations.
Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by brandonagr2 on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @11:39PM (#38021362)
How is twitter failing? Usage is growing and they will be cash flow positive soon, that sounds better than twitter 1.0 was doing
Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by huytersd on Thursday October 26, 2023 @12:12AM (#38021522)
Usage is dropping. Down about 15% over the last 10 months. Revenue has dropped 11% compared to last year. It’s expected to keep dropping in 2023 with advertising revenue leaving.
Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by d-z-m on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @10:18PM (#38020919)
> Literally EVERYONE said the cement base was a stupid idea and yet Elon had to trump his own experts.

Do you have more information on this? My quick googling turned up nothing.

Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by almost_usual on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @10:39PM (#38021060)
This submission was quickly flagged on HN but it was pointed out.

> In addition to the siting and sizing of the pad, SpaceX does not have a flame trench, nor do they have a water deluge system used to suppress heat and sound energy from any launches, as the Army Corps of Engineering permitting required to add these civil engineering systems is itself a multi-year process.

> No large rocket complex on the planet: not in Russia, nor China, and certainly not in the US, exists that doesn’t contain one or both of these energy suppression systems.

https://blog.esghound.com/p/spacexs-texas-rocket-is-going-to

Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by Animats on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @11:30PM (#38021320)
Boca Chica now has a better launch pad with a flame deflector and a water deluge system.[1] They really needed that. The first version just fired the entire output of the booster at a flat concrete slab, which destroyed the pad, sending chunks of concrete into the ocean and around the area.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYRJn3uvw3M

Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by skellington on Thursday October 26, 2023 @12:23AM (#38021574)
SpaceX said it was more a question of timing. That the water system would take too long and they were hoping to test before it was fit. The first test involved a subset of all the engines so they hoped the concrete would survive.
Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by kcplate on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @10:55PM (#38021145)
I can literally watch SpaceX fire rockets into space 3-4x a month from my backyard.

Name one other company, person, or even a country that can and is willing to do that. There are none. As long as SpaceX can and no one else can, the future of SpaceX is on a pretty sound footing in my opinion.

Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by lancewiggs on Thursday October 26, 2023 @12:27AM (#38021599)
Rocketlab is doing this at about half the rate.
Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by kortilla on Thursday October 26, 2023 @12:59AM (#38021772)
No it’s not, it’s not even making 1 per month.
Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by nickik on Thursday October 26, 2023 @02:11AM (#38022257)
Not even close, and doing it with a tiny 100kg rocket isn't even remotely the same thing anyway.
Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by m4rtink on Thursday October 26, 2023 @04:33AM (#38023176)
Not to mention it does not even have a reusable booster (yet) and unfortunately there seem to be still some reliability issues as well.
Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by ben_w on Thursday October 26, 2023 @05:35AM (#38023537)
I'm all in favour of SpaceX having an engine-rich development cycle that gets things done faster and cheaper than anyone else, this doesn't mean Musk is doing everything right.

I'm sad about the interference that Starlink causes to ground based astronomy, this doesn't mean Musk is ignoring those issues.

And I value government agencies making sure that business interests are balanced against democratic will of the people, that doesn't mean they're funded at the right level for a rapidly growing industry.

Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by cmsj on Thursday October 26, 2023 @06:20AM (#38023758)
Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by kcplate on Thursday October 26, 2023 @09:09AM (#38025029)
Close, but still not matching the frequency of SpaceX

https://www.rocketlaunch.live/?pastOnly=1&filter=spacex

Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by brandonagr2 on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @11:37PM (#38021350)
You sound like you don't know anything about what actually happened or the SpaceX engineering process in general.

SpaceX knew that the concrete wasn't the final solution, it was always temporary, they had already started building the steel water cooled plate before the first test flight. Based on the data they had available from the series of static fire tests leading up to the test they thought the concrete would ablate and survive one test flight before they took the downtime to replace it. Do you have any evidence to support your assertion that Elon overruled all the SpaceX engineers on the timing of when to install the steel water cooled plate or are you Literally making things up?

Learning more by moving quickly and taking calculated risks is clearly the better approach, as evidenced by the current dominance of the Falcon 9 and SN 25 and booster 9 sitting on a repaired OLM and being scheduled to make another orbital attempt in less than 2 weeks.

Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by skellington on Thursday October 26, 2023 @12:24AM (#38021576)
You're only being downvoted because of your accuracy.
Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by renewiltord on Thursday October 26, 2023 @12:29AM (#38021602)
Bizarre that the most accurate take here is greyed out. Absolutely correct.
Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by fomine3 on Thursday October 26, 2023 @01:19AM (#38021887)
> Learning more by moving quickly and taking calculated risks is clearly the better approach,

I think most people agree that it's better for SpaceX business, but some don't agree that it's worthwhile for our society with what happens if failed. It's like Tesla's "FSD Beta" situation.

Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by kasdi on Thursday October 26, 2023 @03:21AM (#38022702)
> Do you have any evidence to support your assertion that Elon overruled all the SpaceX engineers on the timing of when to install the steel water cooled plate or are you Literally making things up?

Unfortunately, #LiterallyMakingThingsUp seems to be a trend these days.

Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by soperj on Thursday October 26, 2023 @12:16AM (#38021539)
> Or because he constantly stomps on experienced engineers with stupid ideas and puts the whole thing at risk. Literally EVERYONE said the cement base was a stupid idea and yet Elon had to trump his own experts.

Wouldn't that be called working from first principles? Proving it doesn't work can be quicker in the long run than over-designing something based on what you think won't work.

Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by tigershark on Thursday October 26, 2023 @12:47AM (#38021698)
You don’t need to work from first principles to understand that the most powerful (by far) rocket built would obliterate whatever concrete you use without an appropriate water deluge system and/or flame trench.
Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by ben_bai on Thursday October 26, 2023 @04:21AM (#38023100)
And now they have to repair the launchsite, which they already did. And add water deluge, which they already did.

The upside was they got lots of data to improve the next rocket, which they already did. It's ready to go again, just waiting for FAA approval.

Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by rbanffy on Thursday October 26, 2023 @07:34AM (#38024204)
> The upside was they got lots of data to improve the next rocket,

Or they could have done that the first time with a flame trench and a water deluge system that prevented the energy of the rockets from damaging the rockets dooming the first stage and making concrete rain on the neighboring wildlife reserve.

Elon could have verified that hypothesis with a full static fire test AND be able to see the damage to both rockets and pad from an actual launch without destroying a rocket.

This is why SpaceX grew from the start with an immune system to prevent Elon from ruining too much stuff.

Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by aik on Thursday October 26, 2023 @08:50AM (#38024818)
Is your argument that SpaceX has succeeded despite Elon, not in large part due to Elon?
Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by rbanffy on Thursday October 26, 2023 @01:12PM (#38028623)
He assembled a team and they learned to use him in the roles he fits best - getting attention and investment money. He is not a brilliant aerospace engineer.

I believe he’s better observed in Twitter, which is a company that didn’t develop an immune system to deal with him.

Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by nemo on Thursday October 26, 2023 @02:58PM (#38030207)
SpaceX and Tesla both enjoyed most success despite Musk's continual rank incompetence by isolating him as the figurehead money guy while puffing his ego letting him cosplay a rocket scientist/tech expert for the press. At both companies he's got handlers to limit and manage the damage he causes. At Twitter he had no handlers and his rank incompetence is on full display, as it was in the PayPal days when he was rightly fired for incompetence.
Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by tigershark on Thursday October 26, 2023 @05:50PM (#38032154)
The FAA approval is delayed exactly because of the water deluge system: https://twitter.com/BCCarCounters/status/1717561704689668377
Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by rifty on Thursday October 26, 2023 @08:31AM (#38024661)
https://twitter.com/drphiltill/status/1710096996604723273?s=...

It seems that while the explosion would have been avoided with a deluge or flame trench, it could have also likely just been mitigated with a thicker concrete pad or a vent system.

Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by hef19898 on Thursday October 26, 2023 @05:35AM (#38023536)
That is why I hate people working from first principle so much: The intentionally ignore decades and centuries of knowledge and experience in fields they don't understand and refuse to accept the fact the resulting failure is their fault. They are very, very quick to claim success so everytime they get lucky and their hairebrained ideas work (mostly only once).
Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by Zigurd on Thursday October 26, 2023 @08:35AM (#38024702)
Cybertruck is a "pickup truck"-ish thing designed from first principles.

Iterative implementation works very well for many kinds of software development projects. When an iteration involves 200 tanker trucks carrying fuel and oxidizer and dozens of rocket engines and results in destroying launch infrastructure and dumping debris into wetlands and inhabited areas, one might conclude "iteration" has made the jump from sound engineering principle to management fad dogma.

Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by kortilla on Thursday October 26, 2023 @01:01AM (#38021779)
> Literally EVERYONE said the cement base was a stupid idea and yet Elon had to trump his own experts.

Even Elon said this. It was a gamble, it didn’t pay off.

Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by hef19898 on Thursday October 26, 2023 @05:35AM (#38023540)
And those gambles make Elon a bad engineer, if one at all.
Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by martindbp on Thursday October 26, 2023 @06:18AM (#38023749)
No, a bad engineer is one that takes no risks ever and end up doing nothing of consequence. His risk taking is the sole reason SpaceX exists.
Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by hef19898 on Thursday October 26, 2023 @07:22AM (#38024119)
You never did any real engineering work, did you? Because there is risk taking, or rather risk management with engineering decisison always being trade offs and such, and taking ahort cuts, cutting corners and taking uncalculated risks in hopes of being lucky. Topped by ignoring advice from others.
Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by aik on Thursday October 26, 2023 @08:51AM (#38024838)
I think at the same time there are 100 decisions he made that have paid off. Of course agree this one didn’t and of course hope he learned from it.
Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by kortilla on Thursday October 26, 2023 @03:25PM (#38030554)
falcon and all of spacex is based on ignoring advice from others, especially “industry experts”. It’s called first principles reasoning.
Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by nemo on Thursday October 26, 2023 @05:27PM (#38031911)
>falcon and all of spacex is based on ignoring advice from others, especially “industry experts”

Not in the least. SpaceX hires a lot of rocket scientists who are industry experts. They're more agile than the entrenched players since Boeing/Lockheed legacy space programs weren't efficient but SpaceX has relied upon expert consultation and expert advice from folks in the industry to build their rockets. I don't see them as building from first principles at all, they're building on what's come before standing on the shoulders of the rocket engineers who've come before.

Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by aik on Thursday October 26, 2023 @08:54AM (#38024867)
Bold claim against the chief engineer of the most advanced rocketry company on Earth.
Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by nickik on Thursday October 26, 2023 @02:10AM (#38022244)
Yes and he has often overruled his engineers and was right. Taking calculated risk to shorten development is reasonable. Even if you don't get it always right.

> Literally EVERYONE said the cement base was a stupid idea

They expected it to break but be ok for one launch. Its a reasonable risk to launch sooner.

> Every time he forces his idiotic ideas on his engineers he puts the future of the whole business at risk.

And yet the he has lead the business for 20+ years and the company has been getting more and more and more successful. I guess that just happens by magic.

> At least he’s been so distracted by the Twitter debacle the adults have been able to make decisions

When SpaceX does good its because Musk wasn't there, when it does bad its because of Musk. Classic.

Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by wnkrshm on Thursday October 26, 2023 @04:14AM (#38023057)
I wonder why Musk is always thrown into the ring with SpaceX, when its entire operation is mostly done by Gwynne Shotwell.
Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by zpeti on Thursday October 26, 2023 @04:42AM (#38023227)
Because Elon is the product lead (and founder and owner), Shotwell does the business development.

Product is way more interesting in this case than BD, considering it's the most badass rockets ever made. But feel free to praise Shotwell too, that's great too.

Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by hef19898 on Thursday October 26, 2023 @05:37AM (#38023549)
You really think Elon is anymore than Product Lead / Chief Engineer in title?
Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by zpeti on Thursday October 26, 2023 @06:40AM (#38023875)
Yes. Please read any of the official comments about him by people who have worked with him, or just answers on Quora, or read the new biography. Or watch his actual comments and behavior on everyday astronaut interviews.

If 4 of those data points don’t convince you, you obviously don’t want to be convinced even in the slightest

Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by simondotau on Thursday October 26, 2023 @07:21AM (#38024114)
Plenty of people with first-hand knowledge and/or their own independently earned reputations have attested to Musk being deeply knowledgeable and deeply involved in engineering at SpaceX. The evidence of his worthiness of the title is so plentiful that — absence some better information not in the public domain — casual doubt is wholly unjustified.

Of course as soon one says this, someone else will misconstrue this as some ridiculous claim that Musk is a singular genius responsible for inventing everything. This is of course silly. He's only one human with a limited schedule. There are surely thousands of things happening every day at SpaceX which he has zero involvement in.

As we often say in computing: ideas are easy, execution is everything. But the biggest successes of SpaceX weren't just about having ideas, they were about having the gumption to fund them, and an ability to recruit the best people so that execution is possible. In fields like rocketry, one might instead say ideas are easy, identifying when an idea should have a billion dollars thrown at it is hard, and execution is damn fucking hard.

Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by nickik on Thursday October 26, 2023 @06:20PM (#38032440)
Because anybody that is actually informed about SpaceX knows that the 'Musk isn't involved, its all Shotwell' is a line that Musk-haters have been using for 10+ years now.

Of course everybody who leaves SpaceX tells a different story. Journalists and others who observe SpaceX tell a different story.

Musk has literally been the leader since the company had 5 people, and he always had control of the companies direction. Shotwell is one important part of the team. But she was recruited by Musk and promoted by Musk into the position she now has.

People also used to say 'Musk has nothing to do with engines its all Tom Mueller' of course then Tom Mueller responded saying that was false. And of course once Mueller left, SpaceX is still doing great things with engines.

So the reason why 'Musk is always throwing into the ring with SpaceX' is simply because its the truth and all Anti-Musk Twitter warriors are not actually informed about the topic they simply have to discredited Musk whenever they can. Often they don't even care about spaceflight, they care about being against Musk.

Re:SpaceX Starship Super Heavy Project at the Boca Chica Lau... by madaxe_again on Thursday October 26, 2023 @02:32AM (#38022394)
Thag make round rock. He call “wheel”. Thag idiot. No need round rock wheel thing in cave.

Sometimes you do something against conventional wisdom, and people call you a genius. Sometimes it doesn’t pay off.

I am assuming that you are employed, rather than an employer.