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Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by kr0bat on Friday September 29, 2023 @10:05PM (#37712211)
So we're living in the least violent times of human history, aren't we? The murder rates found in Oxford was higher than even the most violent contemporary American cities, and the conditions of some of our cities are absolutely tragic.

What's made the world so much more peaceful? Improved material conditions?

Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by thsksbd on Friday September 29, 2023 @10:30PM (#37712313)
Are we?

Even your statement hints that our cities are in a state of societal collapse with increased crime - implying that things could be better. And in fact I don't think we're living in good times; rather, like pollution, we've outsourced violence out of sight. Consider:

- We are electrifying our cars off the labor of kid slaves in Congo.

- The US border is an orgy of sexual exploitation, the ravines cutting through ranchers' fields littered with bloodied children's underwear.

- Half a million soldiers have died in Ukraine over the last one and half year (be they 90% Ukrainian or Russian is irrelevant)

- A war in Congo at the start of the century killed 5 million people without much of a mention in the West

- In Europe, a human tsunami of despair breaks against the shoals of human indifference.

- In the US almost 100 000 die from opioid addiction every year caused by alienation and neglect from their neighbor. Does our low murder rate really count victims among these folks? If a pusher decides to get rid of a client that's become too annoying and laces his drugs, would anyone notice?

No, I don't think we're living in an

No, I don't think we're living in a peaceful era at all.

Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by vinay427 on Friday September 29, 2023 @10:40PM (#37712354)
> Even your statement hints that our cities are in a state of societal collapse with increased crime

Not the GP commenter, but I don’t see how their comment hints at this. Could you clarify?

> No, I don't think we're living in a peaceful era at all.

This appears to respond to a different claim than that in the parent comment based on my reading, unless I’m misinterpreting the “no” here?

Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by thsksbd on Saturday September 30, 2023 @09:55AM (#37715466)
"even the most violent contemporary American cities, and the conditions of some of our cities are absolutely tragic."

I think there a little hint there that the OP doesnt think American cities are in their golden era.

As to my peace comment, it must be put in context of the precious statement that, as violent as our cities are, we have have achieved some pacification by exporting violence.

If the Congo-US city link is too abstract, consider American jails. They are brutally violent to the point where it is suspected male-male rape might be more prominent than male-female. All of our would be urban violence that we have warehoused in our jails occurs multiple fold in our jails.

Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by kr0bat on Friday September 29, 2023 @11:03PM (#37712466)
I wouldn't even disagree with a lot of what's you're putting down, but it's not very relevant, no? Even if you believe that we've "outsourced violence" - and honestly I agree, it's all to easy to forget that a lot of our first world material conditions are predicated on cheap third world labor - there's still a difference between global exploitation, and stabbing a man to death over public urination.
Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by thsksbd on Saturday September 30, 2023 @09:50AM (#37715419)
Indeed, there is a difference.

It appears to me that, as brutal as it is to stab a man for exposing himself and dispersing his bodily fluids (not obviously sterile if he frequents brothels), it is far more uncivilized what we do: enslave children and exploit them until they drop like flies so we have the minerals necessary to upgrade our phone and greenwash our souls.

I mean are we seriously comparing the stabbing of a man who sexually exploits women, to the slow and painful death of a child that mines cobalt for our phones and EVs?

Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by astrange on Friday September 29, 2023 @11:12PM (#37712508)
> - We are electrifying our cars off the labor of kid slaves in Congo.

No we're not, eg Tesla batteries don't contain cobalt anymore.

> be they 90% Ukrainian or Russian is irrelevant

This is pro-Russian "anti-imperialism" propaganda, it's Russia's fault that Russia decided to do that and not anyone else's.

Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by quotz on Friday September 29, 2023 @11:27PM (#37712561)
If the US invaded Mexico, because Mexico would join a hypothetical military "defensive" alliance with Russia, does that put the blame on Russia or on the US? We already have the answer to this since something similar happened in the 60s which we call the Cuban Missile Crisis. The US almost invaded Cuba, did a total naval blockade that lasted 2 weeks, until Cuba surrendered and backed out of the alliance with Russia.
Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by astrange on Saturday September 30, 2023 @12:06AM (#37712697)
That's exactly what I meant about Western "anti-imperialism" actually being pro-Russia. Mostly because it was literally invented by the USSR.

Ukraine was explicitly rejected last time they tried to join NATO. Although they will get in now, and so will Finland and Sweden, so it was obviously counterproductive!

But Russia doesn't even care about that. They're just ideologically opposed to Ukraine existing and want its industrial resources back. They don't even say it themselves, you just make excuses for them.

Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by quotz on Saturday October 07, 2023 @05:40PM (#37805794)
Ukraine is nowhere near getting in nato
Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by TulliusCicero on Saturday September 30, 2023 @12:35AM (#37712794)
If the US invades a country for joining the CSTO, that's absolutely on the US.
Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by dotnet00 on Saturday September 30, 2023 @01:35AM (#37713026)
That would put the blame on the US because the US would have to have done something to provoke Mexico to want to join such an alliance.

As it stands, Mexico doesn't even bother with significant defense spending because they know that the US isn't all that interested in invading and no one else is going to try to invade a country which shares a land border with the US.

On the other hand, the various Russian neighbors who have joined or have expressed interest in joining NATO have done the same calculus and determined that Russia is cannot be relied on to not threaten their borders.

Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by thsksbd on Saturday September 30, 2023 @10:19AM (#37715675)
1. I didnt mention Tesla.

2. I didn't mention batteries. Cobalt is used in many components in EVs

3. Clearly my example was illustrative, generally, of the exploitation of children for mineral resources the country didn't use. The children in Congo is child exploitation writ large.

The kids in Congo are mining something for some application and for someone and that someone is us.

> Russia vs Ukraine

I think you misread my comment. I did not pass judgement at all on the war (on this comment at least). I was just pointing out that whether you take Kiev's numbers as true (450 000 dead Russians + 50 000 dead Ukrainians) or Moscow's (450 000 dead Ukrainians + 50 000 dead Russians) the number of dead is curiously the same.

Half a million dead souls in Donbas, no matter their nationality is a tragedy being comprehension.

Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by ksenzee on Friday September 29, 2023 @11:15PM (#37712521)
> - The US border is an orgy of sexual exploitation, the ravines cutting through ranchers’ fields littered with bloodied children’s underwear.

Citation? The US border is a humanitarian and policy disaster, but “littered with bloodied children’s underwear”?

Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by thsksbd on Saturday September 30, 2023 @09:50AM (#37715425)
There's video footage of it. Google it yourself.
Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by ksenzee on Saturday September 30, 2023 @02:02PM (#37718044)
Video footage is proof of nothing these days. I’m going to assume this is right-wing disinformation for now.
Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by thsksbd on Saturday September 30, 2023 @08:11PM (#37721234)
Do you feel the same way about George Floyd, or only those videos that challenge your biases?
Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by ksenzee on Monday October 02, 2023 @03:03PM (#37742858)
The George Floyd video, if it came out today, would by itself be proof of nothing. Journalists have to do a lot more fact-checking of video than they did a few years ago.
Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by hackerlight on Friday September 29, 2023 @11:40PM (#37712601)
> No, I don't think we're living in a peaceful era at all.

Nobody said we are. The claim is that we're living in a more peaceful era.

Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by thsksbd on Saturday September 30, 2023 @10:20AM (#37715688)
My mistake. I cant edit it anymore so let me write it here.

I don't think we're living in a more peaceful era at all

Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by d11z on Friday September 29, 2023 @10:54PM (#37712420)
It’s simply way too easy to get caught nowadays. I don’t think there’s much more to it, honestly. Even if an individual makes a concerted effort to avoid technology (phone, computer, etc), the sprawling surveillance infra only encompasses more each day.
Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by bugglebeetle on Saturday September 30, 2023 @02:19AM (#37713174)
Conversely, one wonders, perhaps in dread, how those impulses are otherwise being sublimated.
Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by becquerel on Saturday September 30, 2023 @03:29AM (#37713409)
The writing of regex, presumably
Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by Biologist123 on Saturday September 30, 2023 @04:22AM (#37713589)
MBA programmes?
Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by baud147258 on Saturday September 30, 2023 @07:26AM (#37714415)
movies, video games, TV sports, snuff videos...
Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by TheOtherHobbes on Saturday September 30, 2023 @08:43AM (#37714888)
Fintech
Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by petercooper on Saturday September 30, 2023 @09:10AM (#37715084)
My guess is it's like the psychology around https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory or, more broadly, reflexivity and socialization.

People may not have any particular 'impulse' to violence in a stable, safe society, but may be all too ready to participate in violence in a violent society. Society does not solely reflect the people in it, people also reflect the society they're in.

Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by apalmer on Friday September 29, 2023 @10:57PM (#37712437)
numerous things, for one much much greater likely hood of getting caught.
Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by bobbylarrybobby on Saturday September 30, 2023 @12:55AM (#37712861)
I'd wager longer lifespans (a consequence of improved material conditions) have made a big difference. Back in the day, you had a decent chance of dying fairly young anyway, so there wasn't as much disincentive to do stuff that might get you killed (such as crimes, revolutions, and other violent acts). Nowadays, in a developed nation, the cost of dying young is incredibly high as measured by years of life lost.
Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by ffgjgf1 on Saturday September 30, 2023 @02:17AM (#37713166)
The likelihood of doing in your 20s or 30s (due to natural causes) was still relatively low. If you survived childhood expecting to live into your 50s was pretty reasonable.

Also this would seem like a highly nihilistic attitude hardly compatible with the social values of the day. I doubt this could’ve been a significant reason on a societal level.

Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by ben_w on Saturday September 30, 2023 @02:29AM (#37713225)
Probably a bit of everything. In addition to what the other comments have already mentioned, much higher alcohol consumption back then, feudalism, duelling and the honour-driven culture that led to it, and widespread availability of weapons:

> A Thursday night in 1298 saw an argument between students in an Oxford High Street tavern result in a mass street brawl with swords and battle-axes

…

> "Knives were omnipresent in medieval society," said Brown. Many cases feature a knife called a thwytel, later evolved to the word "whittle."

> "A thwytel was a small knife, often valued at one penny, and used as cutlery or for everyday tasks. Axes were commonplace in homes for cutting wood, and many men carried a staff," Brown continued. Some 12% of London's homicides were committed with a sword.

Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by ffgjgf1 on Saturday September 30, 2023 @02:31AM (#37713232)
Violence was much more socially acceptable as a response to slights and insults.

Also living conditions were poor and urban populations were highly concentrated and lived in close quarters.

In universities specifically you had very high concentrations of socially highly privileged young men (generally they had legal immunity and could only be prosecuted by the church courts) with a lot of time and energy on their hands.

Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by 3seashells on Saturday September 30, 2023 @03:20AM (#37713385)
Now imagine untreated paranoid schizophrenia in a duelling environment.
Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by justinclift on Saturday September 30, 2023 @06:53AM (#37714243)
Why?
Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by 3seashells on Saturday September 30, 2023 @07:28AM (#37714426)
Because it means a whole percentage of the population never reaches adulthood in medieval times, they die in duels on perceived sights or are.. Strutting around as legally sanctioned murdered snarling at the commoners.
Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by justinclift on Saturday September 30, 2023 @10:10AM (#37715602)
Based upon what evidence?
Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by adastra22 on Saturday September 30, 2023 @03:27AM (#37713406)
Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by lazide on Saturday September 30, 2023 @04:16AM (#37713572)
Birth control means less population pressure, fewer unwanted kids, and less abuse at home.
Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by stevesimmons on Saturday September 30, 2023 @04:41AM (#37713685)
> What's made the world so much more peaceful? Improved material conditions?

Steven Pinker's 2011 book "The Better Angels of our Nature" is a detailed examination how less violent societies across the world have become, and the reasons for it.

If you like videos, here's a talk he gave on it [2].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Better_Angels_of_Our_Natur...

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feuq5x2ZL-s

Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by watwut on Saturday September 30, 2023 @04:49AM (#37713727)
But Pinker is not historian and I have seen historians to dispute his historical takes.
Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by mytailorisrich on Saturday September 30, 2023 @04:59AM (#37713770)
Many of the stories in the article still occur nowadays but since no-one carries swords and axes, or generally any weapons, anymore people don't die.

I think this is a big difference.

Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by DANmode on Saturday September 30, 2023 @05:22AM (#37713870)
I've noticed some regional US English dialects use "anymore" in place of "these days", or "nowadays", but have never seen them used adjacently!
Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by sfifs on Saturday September 30, 2023 @05:03AM (#37713797)
And also most people are not drunk all the time. Clean drinking water was not really a thing till modern times in towns and I believe most people primarily drank some form of alcohol
Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by denton-scratch on Saturday September 30, 2023 @05:32AM (#37713913)
> most people primarily drank some form of alcohol

The substitute for clean drinking water was "small beer", a brewed ale with about 2% alcohol. Much safer than drinking water from the pump; or, heaven forbid, from the River Thames, which in those days was even more of a sewer than it is now. You'd have to drink a lot of it to get drunk.

TFA describes a murder that happened in "the parish of St. Aldates". St. Aldates Street runs from the centre of Oxford downhill to the Thames at St. Ebbes. St. Ebbes itself was a slum; wealthy people wouldn't live next to a disease-ridden open sewer. The side-streets off St. Aldates are all narrow, dark mediaeval alleys.

Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by qwytw on Saturday September 30, 2023 @07:43AM (#37714515)
That's mostly a myth.

Also alcohol in beer does nothing to 'clean' the water (how would that even make any sense?) it's the boiling that kills the bacteria, parasites etc. (and people have understood that boiling makes water safer for thousands of years if not more).

Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by ben_w on Sunday October 01, 2023 @06:59AM (#37724725)
> how would that even make any sense?

Because alcohol is toxic. This is also why there's a maximum alcohol concentration above which you need distillation: the alcohol kills off the yeast that makes it.

2% may not be enough kill off everything (I'd be surprised if it was), but in the absence of better training on my part (I'm not a biologist), I would assume it would still make a difference.

Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by qwytw on Sunday October 01, 2023 @12:40PM (#37727748)
> I would assume it would still make a difference.

Alcohol and low pH might significantly slow down the risk of bacteria spreading. Which is relevant if you want to store.

Obviously it's not really that relevant if were talking about making the water safe to drink in the first place because boiling is much more effective.

And again the claim that medieval people drank beer all the time because all the water they had access to is dirty is a myth..

Ensuring access to clean water was something medieval people took very seriously with very severe punishments for those who polluted or tried poisoning sources of drinkable water.

Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by mytailorisrich on Sunday October 01, 2023 @08:04AM (#37725124)
Small beer had very little alcohol and did not make people drunk, especially since they didn't drink that much of it every.

People drank beer because it tasted good and was full of carbs (energy for the day). They even had small beer for breakfast.

Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by f6v on Saturday September 30, 2023 @05:23AM (#37713878)
Religion devalues the human life. So what wrong with dying, everyone will have an afterlife anyway.
Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by nimbleal on Saturday September 30, 2023 @06:02AM (#37714041)
Either the most violent or the least depending on how your gerrymander your sample.

Hypothesis: violence is effectively monopolised to a degree it has never been before. So it is used far less frequently but when it is used, is far more destructive (see world wars).

Re:Students made Oxford murder capital of late medieval Engl... by gremlinsinc on Saturday September 30, 2023 @02:06PM (#37718098)
in the wild West it was acceptable to end a quarrel with a duel to the death, you still can but the survivor will probably get 20 to life in prison for murder, i mean I guess they could claim self defense but that's iffy since they put themselves in harms way...

The last duel was like early 1900s maybe end of the wild West era...