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Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by GlumWoodpecker on Sunday September 24, 2023 @09:14AM (#37632825)
Powerful article. What strikes me as a layman (non-lawyer, non-law enforcement), is how prevalent these methods of forensic science have become, without any solid scientific basis backing them up - such as peer reviewed studies with quantifiable evidence. You'd think that in order for the state to take the life of a human being, you'd need to prove it using means that are more thoroughly vetted than "[one doctor] who in 1971 suggested the cause might be violent shaking" (emphasis mine).
Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by jdechko on Sunday September 24, 2023 @09:25AM (#37632911)
I’m sure the dozens of TV shows don’t help this either. Law and Order is never wrong and their science and methods are flawless. Obviously I’m being sarcastic, but I think it clouds the jury’s thought process
Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by ceejayoz on Sunday September 24, 2023 @10:11AM (#37633288)
Yup. Known as the CSI effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSI_effect
Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by hirundo on Sunday September 24, 2023 @11:00AM (#37633761)
I was on a jury last month, an assault and battery case in which the identification of the rusty-colored substance on the grip of a handgun could easily make a big difference. We convicted on the assault and acquitted on the battery because of the lack of the evidence, though I think most of us thought the defendant was guilty of both.

This was the second try at this case after a prior jury hung, but the two years between the charge and the second trial were not enough to get _any_ results back on the substance. Apparently the lead time required is such that they didn't bother to try. Here's how they explained that: "This isn't CSI."

Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by Aeolun on Sunday September 24, 2023 @02:31PM (#37635836)
If two years is not enough lead time someone is not doing their job.
Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by hirundo on Sunday September 24, 2023 @04:22PM (#37636784)
Agree. I could understand if the expense of a DNA analysis sufficient to identify only the victim could be more than the county could afford for a battery case. But not trying to even identify it as blood, let alone human blood, just seems lazy. Here's what the prosecutor gave us in place of that: "If it smells like a skunk, it's a skunk, you don't have to see it." I was thinking that I smelled one and was looking at it.
Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by gus_massa on Sunday September 24, 2023 @10:25AM (#37633432)
The original Law and Order was good, not perfect, but quite good. They tried to follow the procedures and most of the proof were real. Each story was original. (IIRC. IANAL. And perhaps a few more disclaimers.)

The spin-offs are bad. The suspects are interrogated until they confess, and nobody cares if they have no lawyer or they use dubios evidence.

Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by dmoy on Sunday September 24, 2023 @11:10AM (#37633830)
It was embellished a little, and there were some procedural flaws, but it was an order of magnitude more realistic than subsequent L&O shows.

For the cops, prosecutors, and defense attorneys, the show doesn't give the proper sense of immense caseload. Each episode feels like they're focused 100% on a single thing, when in reality they're probably juggling dozens, and stretched thin.

The cop side of things in L&O is fairly unrealistic, but imo in more minor ways for pacing than anything egregious.

The prosecutors of course don't get called on 4th/5th amendment violations as they normally would, and my memory is the defendant testifies way too frequently (for homicide cases, in that time priod). And it doesn't do a realistic depiction of the rate at which people get completely screwed over by corruption. And it doesn't do a great job pointing out how often prosecutors will take cases prioritized for their own political careers.

I am not a lawyer, and the lawyers I watched L&O with were civil litigators not criminal litigators, so some of my perspective is probably off (though I suspect in ways that are more favorable to the show). Also it was like 25 years ago? Lol

Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by rolph on Sunday September 24, 2023 @12:26PM (#37634507)
L&O does seem to showcase the attitude of laws as inconveniences to be sidestepped, by way of sophistry, and conduct worse than the defendant.
Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by primer42 on Sunday September 24, 2023 @09:23AM (#37632894)
IMHO our system of law cares more about precedent than almost anything else. The first case addressing a situation sets the bar, which is backwards. The most important decisions are made when we, collectively, know least about the topic at hand.
Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by wizerdrobe on Sunday September 24, 2023 @09:43AM (#37633040)
As the saying goes, it’s a “legal” system rather than a Justice system.

So long as you follow arcane procedure and precedent, the deeper facts don’t matter and don’t get much respect from the system.

Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by dmvdoug on Sunday September 24, 2023 @09:51AM (#37633113)
And criminal law and procedure doesn’t care about precedent as much as it cares about finality. Which is really backwards.
Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by kmeisthax on Sunday September 24, 2023 @01:30PM (#37635194)
Common law is only one basis of law and it's almost exclusively an English thing. In England, alternative bases of law were associated with horrific abuses of power. In response the Anglosphere has adopted a sort of extreme legal conservatism: anything other than inviolable natural rights decided on the basis of "we've always done it this way" is not freedom, but privilege[0]. Every acquittal binds the law, ideally forever. This is the same form of law that gives us things like "human rights are what you afford your worst enemy", which is contradictory[1], but sounds like a really strong bulwark against tyranny.

Outside of the Anglosphere judges are free to ignore precedent, which they call "jurisprudence". This is a tradeoff: you get justice "in the moment" in exchange for less future surety about how the legal system will react. The legal system might just decide that you doing the exact same thing someone else did and got away with is now illegal.

My personal opinion is that any basis of law can be used for tyranny, and that common law and inviolable rights are less protective than we have been propagandized to think. Even common law legal systems occasionally overturn precedent if they feel like it - remember when anti-abortion laws were a violation of the 4th Amendment until they weren't?

[0] This even extends to the word "franchise", which means "French-ize", as in to be given freedoms by being turned into a Frenchman

[1] What if your enemy seeks to take away your rights?

Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by lost_tourist on Sunday September 24, 2023 @02:28PM (#37635795)
I think that may have been true in the past but recent cases in front of the SCOTUS is setting precedent that stare decisis (and other forms of precedence) doesn't matter much any longer in the US court system.
Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by SpicyLemonZest on Sunday September 24, 2023 @09:48AM (#37633087)
You sometimes get the stereotypical esoteric forensics experts, who tour the country saying they have some special ability to identify bites or toeprints or whatever. I pretty much agree with you there; their methods are unproven, there's very little reason to think they can actually do what they claim, judges simply shouldn't let them testify.

This case is harder. Medical questions about what happened to a victim are often highly relevant, and doctors are legitimate, credentialed experts qualified to speak on that topic. If they believe based on their training and experience that suchandsuch symptoms mean blunt force trauma, how could a random judge evaluate whether they have enough scientific backing to say that?

Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by couchand on Sunday September 24, 2023 @09:56AM (#37633167)
A judge can and should seek confirmation from additional experts, and if some then reasonably cast doubt on the certainty of others' testimony, that ought to be considered.
Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by SpicyLemonZest on Sunday September 24, 2023 @10:01AM (#37633204)
It's not really a judge's role to go out and find witnesses. Defendants can, but as the article describes, "shaken baby syndrome" was official guidance from the American Academy of Pediatrics at the time.
Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by couchand on Sunday September 24, 2023 @12:07PM (#37634323)
Right, if one party puts forward an unchallenged expert witness, sure, there's not much a judge can do. It sounds like the original case was like that.

It sounds like the appeal is NOT like that, the judge having seemingly ignored the very reasonable challenge to the original witness testimony.

Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by SpicyLemonZest on Sunday September 24, 2023 @12:29PM (#37634544)
Appeals aren’t meant to be a redo of the original trial. The judge ruled that he didn’t prove he was innocent, or that a reasonable juror couldn’t have voted to convict him if they saw his new evidence.
Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by couchand on Sunday September 24, 2023 @12:48PM (#37634757)
Please explain how "expert testimony has been widely discredited" doesn't count as new evidence?
Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by SpicyLemonZest on Sunday September 24, 2023 @01:07PM (#37634955)
It’s new evidence, but it doesn’t contradict the entire case. In particular, there are witnesses who said they saw him abuse the kid in the past, and child abuse remains a real thing regardless of medical disputes about whether there’s a distinct “shaken baby syndrome”. So the judge felt that a reasonable juror could have convicted him even in light of the new information.
Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by couchand on Sunday September 24, 2023 @01:28PM (#37635169)
I don't presume to know this case. I was replying to what seemed like a characterization of the medical testimony in this case as belonging to the latter group, when in fact it has been shown over time to be as invalid as the former.

There ceased to be a distinction between the two groups in your original comment when the weight of evidence started to clearly tip away from prosecutions like these.

Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by ajdude on Sunday September 24, 2023 @09:52AM (#37633127)
Reminds me of the case of when a man was wrongfully convicted by expert testimony placing them at the scene by hair microscopy. He spent 30 years in prison:

> In Tribble’s case, the FBI agent testified at trial that the hair from the stocking matched Tribble’s “in all microscopic characteristics.”

> In closing arguments, federal prosecutor David Stanley went further: “There is one chance, perhaps for all we know, in 10 million that it could [be] someone else’s hair.”

It was dog hair.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/dc-judge-exonerat...

Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by P_I_Staker on Monday September 25, 2023 @09:29AM (#37643476)
> “There is one chance, perhaps for all we know, in 10 million that it could [be] someone else’s hair.”

This has to be wildly illegal. "perhaps for all we know", followed by a concrete number.

Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by riffraff on Sunday September 24, 2023 @09:53AM (#37633131)
I'm afraid the whole field of medicine moves forward by screw ups and fixes, and as such forensics are just another place.

In "Factfulness" the late Hans Rosling mentions how he spent years telling people to not keep babies sleeping on their back, based on science were people believed babies might suffocate more easily.

This turned out to be the opposite of truth, babies are more likely to die when sleeping on their belly. For years, doctors , him included, may have indirectly killed babies trying to save them.

OTOH, the unreliability of our tools makes a strong case against the death penalty, IMO.

Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by Grimburger on Sunday September 24, 2023 @10:23AM (#37633399)
The closed source DNA testing code used daily just raises so many red flags. It's honestly concerning how basically no one in the legal community understands why this is an issue. This stuff is way too important to be proprietary.
Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by kmeisthax on Sunday September 24, 2023 @01:36PM (#37635266)
Wanting to weaken or abolish any kind of property right - even the non-naturally-derived government-granted monopoly bargains that form copyright, patent, and trade secrecy - makes you extremely fringe in the legal profession. If you want to be a competent and successful lawyer while holding those opinions you have to firewall half your brain off from the other half. Partially because fringe people who want to change the law make terrible legal arguments[0], and partially because nobody wants to hire a lawyer that's arguing that forensic software should be decopyrighted and its source code forcibly expropriated by the state for the sake of avoiding a miscarriage of justice.

[0] Like me, right now, who thinks we should demand copyright term maximums

Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by adfgiionio on Sunday September 24, 2023 @02:36PM (#37635893)
Who said anything about the state claiming ownership of this software? That's a huge leap of logic. We are talking about removing the state's power to use secret software at trial. This is a restriction on the government, not on the software authors. Any changes to copyright are irrelevant here.

We have pretty good proposals to deal with this problem that make no changes to copyright. I think the following seems pretty sensible:

https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/4368

I don't know the specifics, though.

Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by kmeisthax on Sunday September 24, 2023 @11:38PM (#37639446)
"Fringe" in this case means "outside the Overton window", not "only implemented for a short fraction of the history of the human species". Otherwise we'd have to call suburban living and freedom of speech fringe ideas, because the 1st Amendment is only slightly younger than copyright itself and the formation of suburbs is still in living memory for a handful of 100-year-olds.

>>Partially because fringe people who want to change the law make terrible legal arguments

>No one has ever changed the law to benefit the rich, no sirree.

You followed this up with a link to America's mind-numbingly long copyright terms, so I would instead point out that none of those were extended by judicial fiat. Generally a "legal argument" means something argued in front of a judge about how the law is, rather than something argued to Congress about how the law ought to be. The reason why reformers make bad legal arguments is because they're trying to use the legal system to do an end-run around Congress, because the rich people already own Congress.

That being said, they also own the legal system indirectly. It's staffed by professionals who have a vested interest in a set of rich people paying them money. If SCOTUS said tomorrow that, say, 1A overturns the Copyright Clause, half the legal profession would be homeless by the day after.

Also, trademark as copyright is already precluded by the federal preemption clause of US copyright law; you specifically cannot cobble together other rights into something that looks and quacks like a copyright.

Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by kergonath on Sunday September 24, 2023 @04:50PM (#37637066)
There are alternatives to “decopyrighting”: a government-sponsored development effort, open source from the beginning, for example. Or a government buying an existing piece of software to a willing company. Or sending money to that company in exchange of them publishing their source code.

The OP did not say anything about taking ownership of already-existing software without its owner’s consent.

Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by chipsa on Monday September 25, 2023 @08:04AM (#37642393)
Weird copyright idea of mine: copyright registrations lapse, and must be paid for regularly, but the copyright itself continues. You have to have a registration to be able to demand statutory damages and can only demand for the period of the registration. So, if it lapses, you can't demand anything. No copyright zombies, because if you cared enough, you'd have made sure the registration was up to date. But it still falls close enough to treaty requirements to not get thrown out.
Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by vorpalhex on Sunday September 24, 2023 @10:34AM (#37633508)
SBS is well supported by the medical literature and extensive studies: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25616019/ (an overview)

This man was not committed to death row because of one doctor. He was found guilty because multiple people in his life testified he had a history of violently shaking and screaming at a child for crying.

Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by alright2565 on Sunday September 24, 2023 @11:04AM (#37633782)
I don't even think it matters if he shook this infant or not.

The doctors failed to diagnose the infant with severe pneumonia and prescribed it medications that are no longer considered safe for children. This seems like plenty of doubt to not convict him.

Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by ClumsyPilot on Sunday September 24, 2023 @11:23AM (#37633933)
sounds almost like are laying the blame on someone else for your mistakes
Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by vorpalhex on Sunday September 24, 2023 @01:36PM (#37635264)
The child did not have pneumonia. Roberson CLAIMS the child had pneumonia.

You know the issue with that claim? It would have shown up in autopsy. There would still be inflammation in the lungs.

The child had breathing problems because of SBS. SBS can pinch off the airway.

This is a kid that was repeatedly in a hospital. Not for a diagnosed issue such as Asthma but because SBS damage kept occuring because Roberson kept shaking the child hard enough for her to pass out on multiple occasions.

Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by Mordisquitos on Sunday September 24, 2023 @11:26AM (#37633955)
> He was found guilty because multiple people in his life testified he had a history of violently shaking and screaming at a child for crying.

IANAL, but wouldn't that be against the rule that character evidence cannot be used by the prosecution (unless in countering character evidence from the defence)?

Specifically, I believe what you describe would be in contravention of the following: https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/rule_404

> (a) Character Evidence.

> (1) Prohibited Uses. Evidence of a person’s character or character trait is not admissible to prove that on a particular occasion the person acted in accordance with the character or trait.

> [...]

> b) Other Crimes, Wrongs, or Acts.

> (1) Prohibited Uses. Evidence of any other crime, wrong, or act is not admissible to prove a person’s character in order to show that on a particular occasion the person acted in accordance with the character.

> (2) Permitted Uses. This evidence may be admissible for another purpose, such as proving motive, opportunity, intent, preparation, plan, knowledge, identity, absence of mistake, or lack of accident.

Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by vorpalhex on Sunday September 24, 2023 @01:39PM (#37635299)
Re-read (b)(2).

You can't testify that a defendent was "a jealous man" or "of unsavory character". You can testify that you saw him shake an infant angrily until she passed out.

Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by Mordisquitos on Sunday September 24, 2023 @02:48PM (#37635996)
The way I understand it, the testimony that the defendant shook one or more infants angrily onbdifferent occasions would be, according to (b)(1) "Evidence of [an]other crime, wrong, or act, which is not admissible to prove [...] that on a particular occasion the person acted in accordance with the character.

In other words, you can't argue that given there is evidence that the defendant shook babies in anger before, he is the kind of guy who shakes babies in anger, and therefore this is evidence in favour of him having shaken this baby to death.

Regarding (b)(2), I interpret that the testimony that the defendant shook infants in anger in the past would only be admissible under (b)(2) if the previous acts were "proving motive, opportunity, intent, preparation, plan, knowledge, identity, absence of mistake, or lack of accident". I cannot see how having shaken an infant in the past could provide evidence for any of the above as relates to the separate and specific alleged infant-shaking event for which the defendant was on trial.

Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by abduhl on Sunday September 24, 2023 @04:14PM (#37636709)
You don’t see how someone’s history of shaking a baby could bear on whether this separate and specific alleged infant-shaking event wasn’t an accident or that the person didn’t have the intent, preparation, and knowledge to shake a baby? I agree that this evidence implicates rule 404’s bar, but “argue why 404’s exception applies” is a standard law school final exam question.
Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by Arainach on Sunday September 24, 2023 @12:51PM (#37634787)
>He was found guilty because multiple people in his life testified

Source?

Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by vorpalhex on Sunday September 24, 2023 @01:32PM (#37635230)
https://www.texastribune.org/2016/06/17/appeals-court-halts-...

Yes, this article is from 2016 and yes it's in Texas which has a strong law which allows throwing out bad science.

The suspect forensic claim was such a small part of the evidence against the defendent that it didn't survive appeals.

Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by Arainach on Sunday September 24, 2023 @04:21PM (#37636769)
The person alleging he hit the daughter is his ex wife and her own sister testified she is a recurrent liar.
Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by pyuser583 on Sunday September 24, 2023 @09:57PM (#37638914)
Texas has a really good reputation when it comes to throwing out junk science.

But it also means prosecutors often avoid scientific evidence in favor of witness testimony.

It also creates situations where no DNA test is done on evidence. On appeal the defense says “the prosecution didn’t even do dna testing!” But during the trial the defense wasn’t asking for it (and neither was prosecution) so of course it didn’t happen.

Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by lost_tourist on Sunday September 24, 2023 @02:30PM (#37635822)
Not any longer, pediatric scientists/doctors are the last hold outs (most likely because they will have to eat some crow over it), others have considered it as debunked as junk science, making it highly questionable.
Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by epicureanideal on Sunday September 24, 2023 @11:41AM (#37634098)
While I was at a coffee shop recently I overheard a young lady telling her friend that she was switching her major from nursing (I think) to psychology, "because the nursing major is hard", and instead she wants to become a forensic or criminal psychologist, which she believes will be easier. I am concerned about the quality of evidence such a person might present if they ever were called as an expert witness at someone's trial...
Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by lost_tourist on Sunday September 24, 2023 @02:26PM (#37635779)
Propublica also had a pretty great article earlier this year on the topic as well. https://www.propublica.org/article/understanding-junk-scienc...
Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by mrtksn on Sunday September 24, 2023 @03:21PM (#37636308)
> You'd think that in order for the state to take the life of a human being, you'd need to prove it using means that are more thoroughly vetted

Unfortunately, for the state, taking innocent lives is just an Oopsie.

I’m not saying this from a cynical political perspective. IMHO, the problem is more about the psychology of people in power. They usually believe that the thing they do is the most important thing in the world and sometimes they may screw up(huge material losses or tragic life losses) but that’s not a big deal. Even there endless desire for destroying privacy in the name of security is rooted in this. You can’t let a murderer go free and if you have to you can kill a few innocent people in the process and that’s not a big deal == you can’t let criminals commit crimes and if the privacy is the casualty that’s not a big deal.

On the series Succession, there was a scene where one of the billionaires skit kills a waiter and the father covers up evidence, and says “no real people involved” to justify his actions. I think this very accurately is straight, the thinking of people in power.

Re:Texas death row inmate at mercy of Supreme Court – and ju... by philjohn on Sunday September 24, 2023 @04:17PM (#37636727)
Listen to the Podcast "Forensics on Trial" - bullet striation analysis, bitemark analysis - so much of it is junk pseudoscience with zero backing.