The reality is that farming only works in medium to large scale, people that try to grow food for themselves do it either because they have no other option and will die otherwise or they have too much money and time in their hands.

My grandpa was a medium scale farmer for most of his life and when he retired he kept a couple dozen cows for milk and he paid every single month to keep it going. It was his hobby and he knew that, he said he'd need a couple hundred again to make it at least pay for itself.

It's one of the reasons I LOL hard whenever I hear tech people saying they will "retire and become farmers", these people have no idea what it is like to work on a farm for real.

Farm to Taber is a great listen on farming in general, eye opening for those that have had little to no contact to real world farming: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/farm-to-taber/id166958...

Tech saying "I'll become farmer" to escape tech is very amusing, especially how data-driven the large scale farming is, and how small scale farming is getting priced out by large scale farming.

I'm not a farmer, but I did some tech for farming and you would be surprised how tech driven it is. Agriculture was probably the first industry that used satellites outside of military on the large scale.

If someone is Silicon Valley web app developer and went farming, they actually could be going deeper into tech than escape it.

I think most people expressing this sentiment are referring to small scale homesteads or hobby farms, which I have found to be a great break from desk time.

Yeah I have feeling most of that is "I will live off my savings and have a hobby", rather than actually trying to live off that.

It sounds like tech folks want to do like your grandpa wanted, even though they're paying to sustain it

> people that try to grow food for themselves do it either because they have no other option and will die otherwise or they have too much money and time in their hands.

Most people that I know that have backyard gardens aren't doing it for the majority of their calories (I don't know people growing wheat in their backyard), but lots of people grow in their backyard because it is more convenient and the vegetables are always fresh and flavorful.

I grow an herb garden with stuff like basil, chives, parsley, oregano, etc. plus some smaller vegetables like peppers and tomatoes. I grow the herbs because many times they don't even have fresh herbs available at the supermarket or are inconvenient (e.g. a giant thing of parsley when I just want a few snips), and the vegetables taste better.

Herbs should be anyone’s starter for a garden and absolutely makes for an easy break-even.

We had a great run with heirloom (Cherokee Purple) tomatoes this year, purchased for $5.99 per plant at Lowe’s. Our raised bed cost about $100 to build and fill with soil. I spent $100 to build a deer fence. I also bought a $20 jug of Miracle Grow feed. Let’s just cocktail-napkin the water at $10 for the season, and say I have $250 in input to start my garden this year.

I got, at most, $15 dollars worth of tomatoes for the two plants. I could increase that and get into canning to reap some more value, but it’s a hobby to produce neat exotics I can’t even buy if I wanted to. Hopefully I can amortize the upstart costs over the years and achieve a break even on a long enough timescale :)

I'd love to grow tomatoes, but I live where it's too hot and they'll stop flowering sometime in June.

But I'm wondering if you're not growing your tomatoes right, or the cultivars you have are not great? One of the biggest issues I run into when I lived somewhere I could grow is the plants getting so large they uproot the posts I have them staked up with if it gets windy.

Good soil goes a long way, you'll want it to be mostly a decomposed manure. Then you'll really want to get the biggest plant you can find at the store as early as weather allows, then bury most of the plant you buy. If you're just planting it like a normal plant, you've wasted a ton of its potential.

In one of the best years I've had my plants grew nearly 8 feet tall and with only 4 bushes I had to have the kids load up a wagon with tomatoes and give away them to the neighbors I had so many.

Cherokee Purple and Black Krim are two of my favorites, but they admittedly don't always grow quite as vigorously as some other (less tasty) varieties. Still, they grow 5 to 6 feet high and produce 40+ pounds of fruit per plant. And the tomato growing season here is only mid-May through mid-September.

Can verify, and of the two, Krim has the better flavor in my opinion. But they do not produce like the hybrids and the Krims tend to crack.

Another (cherry) that is really tasty is Rosella (a dark purplish variety like the other two). So tasty.

Check this stuff out for growing tomatoes where it is hot.

https://shadeclothstore.com/product-category/aluminet-shade-...

I've had great success with the 40% setting tomatoes all season and my temps push 110F in the summer. One thing I learned the hard way, in addition to this, leave the plants bushy so it shades internally.

Eh, this year we had over 60 days of 100F+ weather, with temps not going below 85 at night for a considerable portion of that. Even if I grow them in the shade of the porch they won't get flowers for a month at a time.

Ya I live in a very dry climate and the nights cool down and evapotranspiration cools a bunch, so maybe that's why it works so well.

I was very impressed with the material though. Complete game changer in my environment. I can grow all kinds of things through summer. Parsley, lettuce, I even had Brussels sprouts and rhubarb go through the heat this summer looking perky the whole time.

>then bury most of the plant you buy. If you're just planting it like a normal plant, you've wasted a ton of its potential.

Elaborate ?

So you buy a tomato that is 8" tall at the store. When you plant it you'll only want 2 to 3 inches of it sticking out of the soil. You bury it deeper than the soil and roots it comes with. The now buried stem will grow roots and the existing roots will also grow and reach more deep soil.

> $5.99 per plant

Buy seeds, plant some in a beer cup of potting soil ~30-45d before the last frost. Don't need to worry with seed starting mix. Don't worry about how tall they get, just plant it almost all sideways.

> I got, at most, $15 dollars worth of tomatoes for the two plants

What were your lbs of yield per plant?

I do cherry tomatoes in 5gal buckets and get ~1.5-2 lbs per bucket. Soil mix is leftovers from contractors mixed with composter stuff and peat moss. Actual garden does better. Retail price for that qty is $7. I have too many buckets set up...

No offense but that seems like most expensive way to farm it. I mean I get it, you want something that looks nice and works, and not is just an old bucket filled with dirt (which is perfectly fine way to recycle broken bucket, just ugly one), but if you just want tomatoes you don't need to spend all that much so that cost is a bit overcalculated imo.

But still, yeah, at that scale its not much more than a hobby, certainly not a way to save any actual money.

> Hopefully I can amortize the upstart costs over the years and achieve a break even on a long enough timescale :)

Or some disease or insect will destroy it. The wonders of farming...

I don't think thats entirely true depending on what definition of farm is being used and where its located.

My grandparents live in Ukraine and do just fine growing most of their food on a small plot of land and their pension.

Tomatoes, cabbage, potatoes, watermelon, cucumbers, some other stuff I've forgotten and bees for honey.

They definitely do not have too much money on their hands. Time yes but thats no different then for anyone retiring?

I own a farm and while I agree that people generally have no idea what goes into farming, I feel like the "tech workers would cry if they ever had to actually farm" statement that is so common on these types of threads is usually coming from someone with experience on a conventional farm.

There are alternative methods of farming like permaculture, and people all over the world use them to grow an abundance of food in an area not much bigger than a large backyard. They are specifically geared towards better utilization of space, and creating natural systems that replace the need for traditional inputs and labor.

Growing someone's entire diet is no small challenge, this is true. But it's also not an all-or-nothing proposition. Someone with zero experience farming could plant some perennial herbs on their balcony, and discover the joy of cooking with them (and replacing a $5 plastic clamshell of Thai basil.) From there, year-by-year, people can get more ambitious with what they grow.

> I own a farm and while I agree that people generally have no idea what goes into farming, I feel like the "tech workers would cry if they ever had to actually farm" statement that is so common on these types of threads is usually coming from someone with experience on a conventional farm.

But it's comparison of "job in IT vs job in farming" (i.e. actually making money in both cases), and not "just farming enough for your food needs"

"making enough for your needs" is few crates of apples, not working whole day with a bunch of temporary workers gathering it while tractors are going around gathering the crates, often in burning sun.

Turning it around it would be like saying "job in IT is SUPER easy" but meaning just setting up a home router once a week (because that's what "farming for yourself" is compared to running profitable farm)

This dynamic changes if they are growing produce to manufacture value added,preserves items.

If you are producing cheese, or tomato sauce, or pesto, for example, the farming activity makes a lot more sense financially. Trying to grow and sell produce is a non-starter. If you can turn it into a shelvable, in-demand, item you can diversify and greatly increase or even just capture profit that you would normally lose.

As I mentioned, diversity is key. You can just deal in one or a few crops. You have to have a range of crops and value added products distributed to a variety of markets and you need to be selling directly.

We have some ultra small farms working here in Ohio doing very well and many have been for generations. It's damn near foolish to shop Kroger for produce here. I know I don't. Not until the ice hits.

Even producing value-added items is a lot of work and mostly a labour of love than of business and this is assuming you have all the stuff you need available around you. These farms in Ohio are the outliers, even here in Florida, where you can technically grow almost the whole year, small farms are rare and usually pretty close to the big cities, most of the time serving as tourist destinations.

If you're going to make cheese, you'll need a lot of cows (even for cheap cheese you'd need at least 10 liters of milk to get to a kilo of cheese) or someone near you that produces enough milk for you to buy and make cheese out of it.

Food production is a heavily specialized, mechanized and complicated job, you need a lot of support and resources around you even for basic canning and dairy products. And then you also have to figure out a way to sell these products to someone at a price they're willing to pay.

It's not by accident you'll see areas heavily focused on specific products (like Winsconsin and cheese) because everyone is, intentionally or not, pooling resources and creating the infrastructure to make it all possible.

There's a traditional soft cheese that is a staple where I'm from in Brazil that is made like queso fresco, but we mix in clarified butter at the end of the cook (it's called butter cheese/queijo de manteiga) that is at risk of disappearing because it's getting harder and harder to produce it locally due to the lack of milk producers and other infrastructure as most milk production has moved elsewhere.

> There's a traditional soft cheese that is a staple where I'm from in Brazil that is made like queso fresco, but we mix in clarified butter at the end of the cook (it's called butter cheese/queijo de manteiga) that is at risk of disappearing because it's getting harder and harder to produce it locally due to the lack of milk producers and other infrastructure as most milk production has moved elsewhere.

are there no vertically integrated cheese production there ? If there is demand for milk why cow farmers are moving away?

Because due to climate change and human action the land has been drying up over the past 50 years and it's not economical to raise cattle there anymore.

I largely agree, but I think there's room for small-scale operations to grow hard-to-transport food (mulberries!) while preserving local varieties and serving as a genetic repository. In a sense, it's insurance against failures and shortcomings of the global food system - it'd be more efficient to go without, but it's nice to maintain a backup system of plants, systems, and knowledge.

I broadly agree, and certainly for staples and root crops, it blows my mind how cheap supermarkets can be. The amount of work, land, pesticides, fertilizers, seeds, etc. it takes to grow a few kilogram of carrots manually is insane compared to being able to buy at 50p/kg at the supermarket. That really shows the level of industrialisation and automation involved in large scale farming.

Which is why I focus on specific crops that I've identified as being valuable or useful to me.

Basil, of course, I already mentioned, and similar to basil is other green and leafy veg, such as spinach, mint, coriander, rocket, spring onions and cress. They grow so quickly and easily that I guess the majority of the cost in a supermarket is the packaging and logistics. I also grow a lot of soft fruits such as strawberries because supermarket fruits are expensive and bland tasting compared to a freshly picked ripe strawberry. Squashes are good to grow as they're quite prolific producers without much effort, yet fairly expensive to buy in the supermarket. Garlic, chilli, tomato, runner beans and leeks I grow mainly because I can choose the cultivars I like, and find they're tastier than the ones I can get in the supermarket.

Of course, the biggest input I'm obviously not accounting for is my time, but as it's an enjoyable hobby that's good for my physical and mental health, that doesn't factor in for me. Plus, I think it's a good life skill to know how to grow food, and it's interesting to try and do it in a sustainable way, e.g. permaculture, supporting pollinators, producing your own compost, propagating your own seeds, capturing and storing water onsite, etc.

I certainly wouldn't quit my job and become a farmer, but I do think growing some of your own food is something everyone should at least try once if they have the space. Also as a general rule, animals require a larger scale to make a profit than do vegetables.

> It's one of the reasons I LOL hard whenever I hear tech people saying they will "retire and become farmers", these people have no idea what it is like to work on a farm for real.

When I hear this sentiment expressed and/or express this sentiment myself, it generally has nothing to do with the farming, but is rather meant to convey an interest in a life as far removed as possible from the stresses and bullshit and growing moral conflicts of working in tech.

Of course, there is probably no industry that is immune from any of these things, or even immune from tech itself.

But consider all of the posturing of the "farmer" being of-the-land and small-town and away from the chaos of city life and away from Silicon Valley ivory towers. All the folksy hokey drawl and front-porch iced-tea that people like to put up, especially politicians and entertainment performers in the country music industry. All the idyllic glorification of the people who "feed the world." It's all beautiful sunrises over fields of grain, people in work clothes who don't have much but still have it all. Obviously, none of that reflects reality any more than a tech worker jumping into that world. It overlooks the backbreaking, bank-breaking labor involved at the lowest levels, and the exploitation of an entire sector of the economy from top to bottom, beginning with government subsidies handed out to a rapidly growing corporate oligarchy swallowing up family farms that have produced our food for generations and converting them to nightmarish factory farming operations of unspeakable horrors. But if golden sunrises is what people want to pretend it is, then that's as good as anything for a tech worker to pretend to want when they fantasize about standing up from their seat at a row of workstations in a FAANG labor facility and walking out.

Of course "these people have no idea what it is like to work on a farm for real." Nobody who hasn't done it does. Just like nobody who hasn't worked in tech knows what it is like working in tech for real.

The point isn't to sincerely go into farming. The point is to imagine getting out of an industry that mills "intellectual labor" into advertising revenue for billionaires. If people like to imagine "flyover country" being some unspoiled unappreciated paradise, then people who genuinely want to get off of the "elitist coasts" are going to imagine going there. If it happens to call the cultural bluff on farming being some quaint, pastoral life of simple but rewarding hard work, that's hardly the tech worker's fault. The blame for that most likely lies with the people in power who stand to benefit from sustaining that fantasy — who are often among the same people who benefit from the fantasy that tech work is all pinball machines and free sodas for typing on computers.

LOL, if that's your coping mechanism. But while one might laugh at a worker wanting to jump from one bleak industry to another bleak industry, the people who profit from all of this bleakness go on profiting. If we have a problem with the fantasies, then maybe we should do something about the realities first.

Yeah, if your granddad kept 24+ cows just for his own milk needs then that's surely a loss, but that's atypical and extremely inefficient. My family is similar, and my grandfather was a dairy farmer, but that was the first thing to go. A dairy is one of the things that scales very well and is just cheaper and easier to buy mass produced milk, but we still garden and raise animals for meat and produce an abundance on a few acres. Grazing animals take up a lot of space so I'm referring to just the garden. Cows, goats, chickens, geese, hogs to root out nutgrass. Deer and rabbits are so plentiful they are a problem. Our main external input that we can't really self source is fuel for the tractor. It's not a massive operation by any means and not a major source of income as everyone has normal non-farming jobs. But it's not a loss, produces far more than we need with not an extreme amount of labor. It's a 100+ year old farm and is mostly forest and timberland now but used to be cotton fields.

It's really not that crazy of an idea to be a mostly self sufficient farm. I would say that including non-grazed pasture we have under 8 acres for crops. Probably an additional 30 for grazing. Of course we buy groceries of things we don't grow but if that wasn't an option we would still eat plenty just less varied.

The important thing is to just have good land I think. Most of Americas farmland isn't great land for farming, it's just flat or ideal for a specific crop, which is great for mass production. The downside is that it's less productive and requires a ton of inputs with a limited and very time sensitive growing season.

Do you think people who say they will retire and become farmers think they’re going to become like legit, money making farmers? Or do you think they know they want a constructive hobby close to the earth to do while they wait to die, and “farming” (almost always meaning hobby farming) sounds like a constructive hobby to wait out the end?

It’s a meme at this point to make fun of people who want to do some form of labor that doesn’t make a good career when they retire. Of course farming is a worse job than being a developer, that’s why this person is a developer! But many things that make hard or even terrible jobs make great hobbies when you’re not doing it to make a career. And people who like to get things done still often don’t want their last accomplishment before they die to be “delivered corporate value in Q3 by…”

My dad pretty much went from "doing well" to "dropping it and getting different job while selling land to development" within the span of my childhood and teenage years.

Small farming was viable few decades ago, now you'd have to make some speciality fancy food there to be profitable, not anything mass market.

Small vinery? Sure you might have some chance. Potatoes and wheat ? Good fucking luck.

> It's one of the reasons I LOL hard whenever I hear tech people saying they will "retire and become farmers", these people have no idea what it is like to work on a farm for real.

Clarkson's farm is essentially a documentary about that lmao. Rich man invests a lot and with ton of help earns less than a thousand a year from quite a lot of land.

When they say that, they might mean they live on a house on acreage and a stablehand feeds and maintains the horses and such. Such arrangements are actually pretty common among the "farmer gentry" class. I've even seen this expanded to the farm becoming a full on small business with sales done at the farmers market, again though the owners are not the ones digging in the dirt or selling product, they hire hands.

I tried growing basil in my windowsill. The problem was that I don't use basil at a constant rate; I use it in big bursts or not at all.

Which just doesn't work. I needed to use a bunch of basil, and it was either cut off all the leaves or buy it at the store. So I cut off all the leaves and that was the end of it...

The "big burst" problem is usually solved by a few (say 4) plants, not one.

But another thing about growing anything is that it works better if you work around it's schedule rather than the other way around. Hothousing and international shipping have got us out of the habit of thinking seasonally or by growth cycle of a plant, but it's not hard to adapt to.

Also for a lot of our food stuffs, they exist specifically to deal with an excess you can't deal with at the time of harvest. Things like tomato sauce, various jams, etc. All of that is designed to take a bounty of a crop, and turn it into a form you can eat in the middle of winter when everything is dead outside. Today though, we think nothing of the implications of this as we buy a jar of ragu once a week.

Add 2 more basil plants and prune 1/3 the leaves when you use it.

Pruning the basil will also cause it to grow bigger and better

Easy. Grow more basil. Eat more basil regularly. Make pesto with excess basil. Freeze basil. Life gave you lemons, so make lemonade.

I was taught by a couple of friends from Italy about how to harvest the seeds and re-grow them, very easy to do. Probably my favorite plant to cultivate now considering how simple it is to grow it, it's always nicer to have fresh herbs than store-bought (often going bad) or dry (no flavour). There is a key time to harvest but I think it depends on the climate you're in so I can't really advise on that unless you live in köppen zone AF.

Mint is about the same and I think even more easy.

One of the things about herbs is that alot of them are great chelating agents for soil. It's something to be aware of because if for example your soil is rich in arsenic, cadmium or lead, you can remediate some of it out with oregano or thyme but since these things absorb enough of that to become a potential hazard to health it's actually fairly prudent to grow your own as consumer reports has pointed out that all brands they have tested in stores have this crap in them [1], especially if you're gardening in an urban setting [2]

[1] https://www.consumerreports.org/health/food-safety/your-herb...

[2] https://clf.jhsph.edu/sites/default/files/2019-03/suh-soil-t...

If you're growing the herbs in planters, it pays to use a custom potting mix that is 1 part peat moss, 1 part compost, and 1 part vermiculite. It eliminates most risk of heavy metals and provides a very light and fluffy medium with lots of aeration and water retention.

Honestly the water retention alone is more than worth the soil costs with the potting mix. Many herbs can be very sensitive to water/heat and good control here allows the plants to grow much larger and more resilient.

So I haven't been keeping on top of this so please correct me if I'm wrong anywhere, but what I've seen to get around this in some experimental hydroponic designs is using piezoelectric ultrasound emitters to make a fog that plant roots hang into, keeping them at a certain level of humidity. The issue I recall they encountered was that the roots ended up making these dendrites that kind of went nowhere and it inhibited growth. I wonder if they've come up with some kind of hybrid method at this point which solves any of these problems because that sounds like a pretty good use case for that kind of technology if water retention is important. I think I saw something like this at a ritz grocery store in California growing basil somewhere but it didn't really look like it was making the best basil I've ever seen or anything, and I didn't really look that hard to see how it worked but it did look a little foggy in there.

As fantastic as peat moss is, I have to recommend considering an alternative. Peat moss isn't sustainable, and at least in Europe, we don't have too many peat bogs left now. Coco coir is my favourite peat moss alternative, but as it's sterile, you do need to use a bit more organic matter or add some leachate/"compost tea".

Thanks for the tip that's something I can get out of my backyard haha

I think this is a smart way to go. I'll grow my own things for better taste too.

I always grow basil. About 4 square feet is enough to have pesto sauce once a week.

I make a lot of pesto also and freeze it to use it throughout the winter. Garlic is one of my favourite crops. It's not as cost beneficial to grow as basil, but being able to pick the cultivar is amazing.

It's unfortunate that pine nuts are so expensive. We base most of our pesto on other nuts to save money, but you just can't beat the taste of a pine nut pesto IMO.

In my opinion cashews are acceptable, but pine nuts definitely the best.

I make a vegan pesto using the following ingredients: basil, pine nuts, garlic, miso, olive oil. The miso adds the fermented and creamy flavor of the parmesan.

Remove stems from basil, wash and tap to dry, don't spin (a little water is good). Add ingredients to the food processor and blend until desired consistency. Scrape down sides and add oil as needed.

Walnuts are where it’s at (but agreed pine nuts are clearly the winner). Homemade pesto with homegrown basil was a revelation in our house. Better than any store bought and a fraction of the price.

What is the size of your basil bed? 50 kg of basil per season seems wonderful!

I think it's about 4 metres by 2 metres. I plant quite densely compared to what you'll normally see recommended on the back of a seed packet, and to save on space between rows, I built a wooden frame that I can use to walk over and harvest from the top. Probably not very safe, but luckily I don't have to report to the HSE!

I also start them off indoors and plant out early since London has a rather mild climate.

Also: it smells bloody amazing.

but what do you do with 50kg of basil... I love pesto and it's a great addon to many things, but I don't see myself using more than a couple hundred g per week.

Once you have an abundance of it, you can really just put it in everything. Anything with tomato is better with basil, plus any sandwiches, salads, pizzas, pasta dishes. I have rabbits, so they get through a lot of fresh herbs (especially the stems) and give me fertilizer back in the form of... little round spheres.

Besides that, I preserve it by making it into pesto, chutneys and other basil-based sauces, oils, jars of dried flakes and freezing it.

Anything I have left over, I give away to friends and family.

pre-seasoning your rabbit I see...

I keep thinking about doing this, do you have any good sources of info you have followed or do you write about it anywhere?

Honestly it's one of those things you just have to try and figure out a bit through trial and error, especially as a lot can depend on your local climate, soil type, etc. If you have any local gardening or allotment groups, the wisdom of the elders can be invaluable, but sometimes you have to go your own way to find out what works for you. My advice would always be start small with easy things like herbs, then work your way up.

Besides that, there are a lot of great resources on YouTube. Personally, I mostly watch the British videos because - bluntly - Americans very wealthy and always have loads of land, power tools, cheap resources, pick up trucks, backhoes, etc. and I don't have any of that. They also seem to be a lot more serious about it, with homesteading or even borderline industrial setups. The British videos tend to be much more about bodging things on a budget in a small back garden for fun, which is much closer to what I'm doing! Also I don't have to worry about climactic differences that way.

With that being said, some of my favourite channels are alexgrowsfood, GrowVeg, Charles Dowding, homegrown.garden, My Family Garden, Down to Earth with Jim, Castle Hill Garden, and of course, BBC Gardeners World. I also love (and am a member of) the Royal Horticultural Society.

I noticed the same thing, a few stores have basil plants for sale at prices which always confuse me. Buying a $6 plant (not sure what Trader Joe's has them for these days), even if I was immediately stripping all the leaves off it is sometimes a better deal by itself.

I've noticed this as well.

I really think there's a market for a grocery store "herb bar." A self-service bed where herbs grow and customers just take what they want. I would think this could greatly lower the expense of selling fresh herbs, since it's probably a easy thing to set and forget with a little automation.

I maintain my own herb garden. $10 of plants and some regular watering keeps me very well stocked with everything I need from spring until fall. I haven't refreshed the soil in five years and everything still grows to fill the entire pot by summer.

People would fuck the plants over within a day. It would at least have someone at the site doing the cutting.

Most grocery stores do have a small set of cuttings of fresh herbs these days it seems.

The subsidy/grant/handout system for food production and distribution is very nuanced and piecemeal so the individual price of foods ends up seemingly random.

The best thing about this sort of farming is you get ready access to heirlooms basically whenever you want thanks to how many indeterminate varietals there are these days (if you have greenhouse or no frost in your climate zone you can have a fruit bearing tomato plant at pretty much all times). Occasionally I can get an heirloom in the grocery store but its a toss up what exactly it will be or if its even available at the time. Meanwhile I can pick out of the catalog some very bizarre looking tomatoes or other plants, grow them up before long, and in a few square feet end up with more of these heirloom tomatoes (that might be sold for like $5 a pound normally) than I could ever know what to do with.

I can also grow various different herbs that are normally tricky to source, e.g. thai basil that can't be found outside asian grocery stores. Plenty of these heirlooms would be impossible to get other than growing them yourself because they have characteristics that make commercial sale a nonstarter: e.g. my heirloom tomatoes basically cannot be stacked up and sold in a market stand because they are sometimes larger than grapefruits, aren't very sturdy like perhaps a roma tomato is, and will crush themselves.