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Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by User23 on Friday September 15, 2023 @01:25AM (#37518808)
When I first got online the average user’s IQ was no joke north of 120. Now of course it’s around 100.

Someone needs to come up with a pithy term for how a subpopulation’s average value for any attribute approaches the population’s average value for same as the subpopulation’s size approaches that of the population. It’s conceptually a simple, even trivial, notion, but it’s cumbersome to talk about.

That’s also why undergraduate degrees are no longer a particularly good signal. And I expect if it were easier to talk about many more cases would become apparent.

Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by theresistor on Friday September 15, 2023 @01:52AM (#37518999)
Regression to the mean
Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by Retric on Friday September 15, 2023 @01:58AM (#37519042)
Undergraduate degrees are becoming a stronger signal just not in the same way.

It’s even more obvious with high school degrees. Most people cross that threshold, so the people who didn’t now represent a usual group of under achievers. The threshold is far below what FAANG’s are looking for, but requiring a HS/collage degree can effectively presort applicants for jobs with lower thresholds.

Unfortunately, such methods consistently exclude many worthwhile applicants from a wide range of jobs the same way asking for a criminal background check. But that then sets up a stronger feedback loop as people have stronger incentives to cross that threshold.

Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by fingerlocks on Friday September 15, 2023 @03:07AM (#37519552)
Paradoxically, if you have an undergraduate degree but don’t have a high school degree, it can be even stronger signal than having both. “I actually dropped out of high school and went straight to college.”, sounds impressive.

Of course you have to omit the part about taking a gap year and being a community college transfer student.

Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by cdogl on Friday September 15, 2023 @09:42AM (#37522821)
I can’t even imagine being asked about this part of my life in a career context. I’m 35 and for the better part of a decade I’ve just been asked about my previous roles. Seems like most organisations simply couldn’t care less where I’ve come from. Maybe it’s an Australian cultural thing.
Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by shaftoe on Friday September 15, 2023 @10:33AM (#37523631)
No, this is pretty typical (I'm American).

The only time people who are more than a few years into their career are asked about degrees (and grades) in an interview is at very bureaucratic organizations or when being interviewed by someone themselves barely out of school who lacks awareness.

Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by cdogl on Saturday September 16, 2023 @11:49PM (#37541354)
Thanks for the clarification.

> is at very bureaucratic organizations

Seeing as this career is a golden ticket with a guaranteed job for life if you’re half competent, I’d spin the complaints from some about these practices around: if an organisation is so detached from the realities of commercial software delivery and what makes a good hire that they’re asking about high school or your degree (and you do have experience), you’ve just received a boon of you all the information you needed. They’re not worth your time and don’t have their eyes on the ball. I’d just be thankful to have dodged a bullet!

Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by antonjs on Friday September 15, 2023 @01:55PM (#37526785)
I'm assuming it's a typo but "collage degree" is great as either a baseline inapplicable bachelor's for a tech job or a cynical view of the value a high school diploma.

Thinking about it I bet someone somewhere has a MA focusing on collage and produces incredible art, so no hard feelings here.

Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by lovich on Friday September 15, 2023 @02:01AM (#37519069)
Isn’t that just Eternal September? At least in the internet
Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by Jensson on Friday September 15, 2023 @02:41AM (#37519346)
Smartphones was the final nail, after that close to 100% of young adults are active online participants.
Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by sneak on Friday September 15, 2023 @02:53AM (#37519428)
Only about half the humans are on the internet.
Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by ebcode on Friday September 15, 2023 @04:19AM (#37520048)
Then there's still hope!
Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by dredmorbius on Friday September 15, 2023 @08:25AM (#37521917)
You're telling us it's going to get worse then?
Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by eastbound on Friday September 15, 2023 @06:18AM (#37520845)
But OKCupid joining the race to the bottom was a choice. They decided to drop the high-IQ / literary customers.

They could have remained as the high-end of dating. 90% of men don’t enjoy using Tinder, and for women it’s just a utility service when being bachelor.

Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by intelVISA on Friday September 15, 2023 @06:21AM (#37520888)
All the idiots already were, unless bikeshedding category theory in IRC while m$ and friends pulled the rug under general computing was The Thinking Man's Choice.
Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by checkyoursudo on Friday September 15, 2023 @07:35AM (#37521468)
Check out the Flynn Effect. It is possible that all of us online idiots and the cohorts coming after are getting stupider every generation. I wouldn't be so hasty with the "things aren't getting worse" part just yet. It could get much worse!
Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by dredmorbius on Friday September 15, 2023 @08:25AM (#37521911)
I suspect smartphones affect this in two ways.

One is that they put the Internet in everybody's hands, literally.

The other, though, is that by virtue of the interface, both display (tiny) and input (shitty, to put it mildly), the effective IQ of those participating, regardless of whatever it was initially, is severely penalised.

When I'm typing at a keyboard, I can look at the words I'm typing, or the source I'm typing from, or just off into space as I'm thinking my thoughts ... and be reasonably assured that what I think I'm typing is what's actually appearing on screen. And if not, editing to correct and fix issues is reasonably straightforward. If necessary I'll switch to a Real Editor (that is, vim, Vale Bram Moolenaar) which is another quantum leap beyond in-browser textbox editing.

When I'm typing at a virtual touchscreen keyboard, I am staring at the keys themselves and trying to hit the the keys I'm actually intending to hit. I'm not monitoring the output (which invariably has errors), I'm not looking at source text, I'm not thinking and composing my thoughts.

And then editing what I've written is also painful.

The resulting typos, losses of thought, and general incoherence in my own writing absolutely pains me to look at. From what I can tell, other people seem to suffer similarly.

I've given up using mobile devices for input (unless I can use a hardware keyboard, and even that rarely), and ... frankly it's a much improved situation.

Smartphones shallow the mind in many ways.

Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by bluGill on Friday September 15, 2023 @09:05AM (#37522307)
I write much longer comments on my laptop and desktop computers than on my phone. The pains you mention make me write less even when I want to write more. Do not confuse this with “I have made this longer than usual because I have not time to make it shorter.” (Pascal, 1657, though others have said something similar and folklore attributes the idea to many more) - I do often revise long comments on my computer to be shorter, but they are still much longer than what I'd write on my phone. If I spent more time on them on my computer I'd write them even shorter, but still much longer because what I want to say is normally long and complex and a phone just makes the complexity too hard to write.

You won't be surprised I've never got the point of limited space places like twitter...

Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by dredmorbius on Friday September 15, 2023 @10:34AM (#37523646)
Dittos ;-)
Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by narag on Friday September 15, 2023 @11:28AM (#37524519)
Everything you said + progressing hypermetropia for the last 25 years. When mobile screens got half decent sizes, I already hated the medium.

When people said that those text pages, around 2000, what was the name? WAP? were going to get everybody online, I was very skeptical. But of course, that was pre-iPhone.

Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by dredmorbius on Friday September 15, 2023 @11:37AM (#37524680)
I remember WAP, and had an early-phase smartphone with limited Web support (Palm Treo/Centro) which ... remains one of the better phones that I've had (hard keyboard among other features). You wouldn't want to read much on that, but as a quick on-the-go reference, particularly when travelling, it was handy.

One of my daily drivers is a large (13.3") e-ink tablet. Reading on that is actually a pleasure, though it's led me to another conclusion: scrolling sucks.

I much prefer reading paginated media, and if at all possible, fixed-layout media (e.g., PDFs rather than ePub) both because the same material stays in the same place on the same page regardless of other settings (I have a strongly spatial memory), and because the layout is usually just simply much better than what fluid-layouts achieve.

What really drives me nuts though is having to scroll on webpages. It's imprecise, half the time I'm clicking on something I'd not intended to, and it's much harder and less pleasing to read.

But size and print clarity alone make this a huge improvement over smartphone displays.

Sorry to hear about the eyesight issues.

Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by narag on Friday September 15, 2023 @05:33PM (#37529382)
The eyesight I wouldn't complain at all. Until recently I didn't need glasses, except for reading. Hypermetropia is also called far-sightness for a reason. Worst period is when I only used glasses for the screen. Someone would come to interrupt and talk, I took the glasses off, then we were commenting on the screen contents, I put it on again, then back to talk and glasses off...

At home I use a 27'' screen with the regular glasses. I fear that if for a next job at some office they don't provide a similar one, the situation will repeat, now with regular glasses vs reading glasses :-m

I much prefer reading paginated media, and if at all possible, fixed-layout media (e.g., PDFs rather than ePub)

ePub didn't grow on me and I couldn't put my finger on why, I guess that's the reason.

About WAP phones, this was the one the company provided:

https://www.reddit.com/r/vintagemobilephones/comments/gefgsm...

Not bad, but not much I could do with it and they took away when I resigned.

Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by dredmorbius on Saturday September 16, 2023 @02:53AM (#37532596)
Gradient lenses may be in your future...

The problem of focusing at multiple distances is ... a challenge.

Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by narag on Saturday September 16, 2023 @04:44PM (#37538515)
IDK, those are a different version of the annoyance. Instead of changing glasses, you change the angle.
Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by dredmorbius on Sunday September 17, 2023 @12:53AM (#37541635)
Pick your poison.
Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by abricot on Saturday September 16, 2023 @02:21PM (#37537234)
Check out eInkBro Browser if you haven't already. It saved my sanity when I started using my eInk tablet.
Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by dredmorbius on Saturday September 16, 2023 @05:04PM (#37538682)
Oh, I'm a huge fan and can't live without it.

I've reported issues / feature requests to Daniel multiple times, most of those have been addressed.

The "save to ePub" feature is among my absolute favourites. It's simply genius:

<https://toot.cat/@dredmorbius/107958709435468728>

Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by ilyt on Saturday September 16, 2023 @03:48PM (#37538026)
I find that it heavily depends what kind of scrolling happens.

I am fine with "instantly jump by constant amount per mousewheel click"

Smooth scrolling ? Much worse

Smooth scrolling custom-implemented in JS, with ramp-in ramp-down speed? Close the webpage

Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by dredmorbius on Sunday September 17, 2023 @12:52AM (#37541633)
On desktop, I have the option of scrolling via spacebar or page-up/down keys.

This is reasonably determinative (the scroll distance is the same in each case), convenient (it's easy to hit those keys), and not confusable with other intent actions. That last point is key as very often when I'm attempting a scroll action on a touchscreen interface I instead commit a click action (usually navigating off-page). Which is maddening.

On touchscreens, not only can I not scroll by a prescribed amount, not only is input through an onscreen keyboard completely crippled, but there's an ever-present drag/click ambiguity which on Android at least (and from my limited experience with iPhones suggests there too) is everpresent.

Add in e-ink, and there are the additional levels that refresh rates drop low enough that following scrolling is tedious, and the display technology makes the many, many paints of a long scroll expensive in terms of battery life. Web browsing drains battery at 10x the rate of my e-book reader.

Einkbro at least mitigates some of that. Going back to Firefox or Onyx's Chrome-based browser is excruciating.

Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by kortex on Friday September 15, 2023 @10:41PM (#37531523)
Have you ever heard about the MessagEase keyboard? It's a pretty radical departure from the usual touch qwerty. Once you get the muscle memory down, you can even disable the letters completely. Right now I'm typing on a featureless black 3x3 grid (save for a purple dot in the center). It's a great conversation starter too, cause folks see me typing and are universally like "wtf how are you typing".

I never thought of it, but now that you mention it, yeah my eyes are on the text, not on the typing.

I switched to messagease in the first place because I make far less mistakes and it's faster to fix a one-letter goof than redo a whole word with swype (sometimes several times, also the gestures fail on unusual or jargon words).

https://www.exideas.com/ME/index.php

Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by dredmorbius on Saturday September 16, 2023 @12:56AM (#37532158)
I haven't, though I do recall Graffiti from PalmOS with some fondness.

The concept here does look as if it fits touchscreens better, appreciate your mentioning it.

Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by vmladenov on Sunday September 17, 2023 @03:42PM (#37548617)
This sort of looks like the Japanese Kana keyboard on iOS
Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by ilyt on Saturday September 16, 2023 @03:44PM (#37538004)
I miss times when there were sensible smartphones still available with proper keyboard...
Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by opsimist on Friday September 15, 2023 @02:51AM (#37519415)
Can we reverse Eternal Eptember? Can we create IQnet just for nerds?
Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by gwd on Friday September 15, 2023 @04:45AM (#37520197)
Sure, just make something that has a barrier to entry that will filter out non-nerds. From what I can tell Ham radio is basically just a chatroom with an entrance exam, for instance. Anything done in a constructed language like Esperanto would be another filter.

There's nothing stopping anyone from making a website duplicating the original OKCupid method. It's just that it requires someone willing to say "no" to the Marginal User and stay niche.

And from what I can tell, Mastodon is duplicating the original, pre-value-extraction Twitter experience. But the main filter it has at the moment is the network effects from Twitter and Facebook; as it grows that filter effect will be reduced.

Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by suslik on Friday September 15, 2023 @06:21AM (#37520885)
What is Ham radio?
Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by xattt on Friday September 15, 2023 @06:51AM (#37521107)
A hobby some people pig up when they’re boar-ed and go hog-wild on spending for equipment.

/s

Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by account42 on Friday September 15, 2023 @08:24AM (#37521900)
Something that someone who didn't get filtered would be able to look up on their own.
Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by suslik on Friday September 15, 2023 @09:01AM (#37522264)
I did look it up, but the way the OP was formed I thought that is some secret underground forum I just am not able to find.
Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by PeterisP on Friday September 15, 2023 @08:53AM (#37522181)
Amateur radio, public (by law - unencrypted, anyone can listen) long-distance communications over certain bands where people are allowed to transmit after a certain barrier of entry of licensing and equipment.
Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by bluGill on Friday September 15, 2023 @09:07AM (#37522333)
A place to talk about what radio you own.
Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by jimbokun on Friday September 15, 2023 @11:23AM (#37524455)
Welp, you're out of the club now.
Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by opsimist on Friday September 15, 2023 @07:33AM (#37521457)
Can we use separate root DNS server as technical barrier to entry? Or NNTP protocol. Or client side SSL certificate, which must be won in a complex game.

There are plenty of options to separate smart people from regular crowd. IMHO, a separate DNS server, which unlocks alternative Internet, is the easiest way to move away from regular people, because it's a bit complicated to switch DNS on a mobile device.

Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by gwd on Friday September 15, 2023 @09:57AM (#37523037)
The thing is, that won't duplicate the original Internet, because the Internet exists. This new filtered internet won't contain all the smart tech people; it will contain all the smart tech people who wanted to join an alternate internet of smart tech people. Those are different sets of people.
Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by opsimist on Friday September 15, 2023 @10:52AM (#37523965)
Early Internet was place for people with similar background, which were small part of all smart people.

IMHO, we need a bait. Something, that will bring in smart people, and only smart people. HN detracts regular people, because it looks boring and doesn't help to continue discussions. This is good for HN, but bad for discussions (and spamers).

I'm thinking about mix of a court and wikipedia. Something, where we can play our game (who is right? who is the smarter?) on steroids, something where we can layout our arguments, facts, ideas, and then discuss them (flame all night long), until someone else, an arbiter, will read all that and declare a winner. IMHO, a topic and number of win/lost/unfinished discussions will be a good indication of smartiness and expertise in a domain.

Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by ilyt on Saturday September 16, 2023 @03:51PM (#37538055)
Even if it becomes successful there will be someone that will decide to make something that gives it easy access to the luddites.

> I'm thinking about mix of a court and wikipedia. Something, where we can play our game (who is right? who is the smarter?) on steroids, something where we can layout our arguments, facts, ideas, and then discuss them (flame all night long), until someone else, an arbiter, will read all that and declare a winner. IMHO, a topic and number of win/lost/unfinished discussions will be a good indication of smartiness and expertise in a domain.

Any system based on voting will be overwhelmed by clueless people upvoting "wrong" thing, just look at reddit.

Only moderation works but that brings all kinds of problems with who is moderator and who chooses them, and what they are allowed to do etc.

Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by dubya on Monday September 25, 2023 @11:57AM (#37645978)
MensaNet :(
Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by Workaccount2 on Friday September 15, 2023 @10:50AM (#37523941)
Someone will quickly monetize the idiots with a simple ad-ridden subscription based app that "Unlocks the Alternet!"
Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by jimbokun on Friday September 15, 2023 @11:17AM (#37524357)
I doubt the non-nerds will want to join.
Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by tremon on Friday September 15, 2023 @04:20PM (#37528634)
They will want to join once it reaches a certain size/notoriety. Same with reddit, gmail and twitter, and same with open source in general.
Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by danielheath on Friday September 15, 2023 @04:48AM (#37520216)
I think it’s called Gemini
Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by GuB-42 on Sunday September 17, 2023 @09:01AM (#37544615)
I don't think Gemini is good for dating or anything interactive.

It is designed to serve text documents with links and not much more. That it is a poor choice for anything else is a feature, not a bug.

Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by fifticon on Friday September 15, 2023 @06:42AM (#37521043)
You can. Just find an online forum for Rick&Morty show.
Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by jimbokun on Friday September 15, 2023 @11:15AM (#37524332)
Has anyone invented a captcha that filters for high IQ humans?

Of course then it would be mostly bots as it would probably be trivial for modern LLMs to solve.

Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by jeffreygoesto on Friday September 15, 2023 @02:02AM (#37519076)
Just imagine how high it must have been when there were only hundreds of users? =;-}

Bitnet Relay in 1992 had some, not even all universities connected and I know of marriages that originated in the IRL(!) relay parties. We actually drove across Europe to meet our online friends.

Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by tsss on Friday September 15, 2023 @07:43AM (#37521525)
Law of large numbers?
Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by addcommitpush on Friday September 15, 2023 @04:50PM (#37528952)
Chebyshev's inequality:

> for a wide class of probability distributions, no more than a certain fraction of values can be more than a certain distance from the mean. Specifically, no more than 1/k^2 of the distribution's values can be k or more standard deviations away from the mean.

IQ is (if I recall correctly) normally distributed with a standard deviation of 15. So for a distance of 1.3... standard deviation (i.e. a distance of 20), you can't have more than 1/1.3...^2 = 56.25% of the population so far from the mean (below 80 or above 120), or 28.125% _above_ 120.

Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by mtVessel on Saturday September 16, 2023 @09:26AM (#37534588)
Regression to the mean?
Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by butterNaN on Sunday September 17, 2023 @03:06AM (#37542302)
IQ is a bad measure of the thing you're trying to quantificate here
Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by tacitusarc on Monday September 18, 2023 @01:18AM (#37552498)
Seems like the law of small numbers to me.
Re:Tyranny of the Marginal User: why software gets worse, no... by wauter on Monday September 18, 2023 @04:04PM (#37561247)
I hereby submit “regression to the population mean”.