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Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by mdorazio on Saturday August 12, 2023 @02:42PM (#37103010)
Finally! This is one of the few fission uses I'm genuinely excited about. Nuclear-thermal just makes so much sense for in-space propulsion of large vessels compared to chemical rockets.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by somenameforme on Saturday August 12, 2023 @03:24PM (#37103382)
I think the obvious concern would be failure scenarios. There will always be failures in space technology. As space expands exponentially (as it is likely to do so in the future), failures will become relatively regular. So the obvious question would be what would happen if a nuclear rocket, with reaction in process, crashed to Earth. Or even if it broke up in the atmosphere.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by semi-extrinsic on Saturday August 12, 2023 @03:54PM (#37103656)
I assume here you mean to denote by "space" the number of human spacecraft, and not the negative pressure contribution in the cosmological stress-energy tensor. In that case, why should it be likely to expand exponentially in the future?
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by sebzim4500 on Saturday August 12, 2023 @04:31PM (#37103979)
>As space expands exponentially (as it is likely to do so in the future), failures will become relatively regular.

It's possible that reliability/safety will improve as fast as the launch cadence does, in which case we could see the accident rate staying flat or decreasing.

Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by pdntspa on Saturday August 12, 2023 @04:40PM (#37104055)
Isn't there a way you can shoot the whole apparatus into the sky while it is inert and then activate in space?
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by nukeman on Saturday August 12, 2023 @04:59PM (#37104182)
Yes, you can have the reactor offline, with control rods inserted for launch. Then when you reach the requisite altitude, withdraw the control rods and start up the reactor. In the event of a launch accident and potential destruction of the reactor, the enriched uranium fuel would be a chemical hazard (uranium is a heavy metal like lead), but only a mild radiation hazard (since there are no high-gamma fission products, and the uranium has undergone heavy purification prior to fuel fabrication).
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by m4rtink on Sunday August 13, 2023 @03:42AM (#37107590)
I think this is the default for any launch of reactors from Earth - launch inert, possibly in pieces and ideally in re-entry proof capsules so you prevent contamination and can re-launch after a failure.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by aziaziazi on Saturday August 12, 2023 @04:41PM (#37104068)
It already happened with Kosmos 954 and will probably happen again soon: ~20 other satellites had been sent in space with the same tech. Kosmos crashed away from (human) life centers but that was a huge stroke of luck. Research area was 100k+ km2.

Launches are less to be feared because they are oriented toward sea and the most critical moment are the first minutes. The device discussed is intended to travel away from earth so as you noted it won’t be dangerous after it quit orbit.

Disclaimer: not skilled in any related field, just a consumer of space science popularization videos for newbies.

Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by flagrant_taco on Sunday August 13, 2023 @12:38AM (#37106731)
It's crazy to me that people largely consider it safe as long as the unspent fuel or nuclear debris is dumped into the ocean.

(Not a direct comment on your opinion specifically, just building of the general idea)

Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by adastra22 on Sunday August 13, 2023 @04:38AM (#37107883)
Because it largely is? It ends up on the sea bed, covered in sediment, then eventually recycled into the Earth’s mantle some millions of years from now. It doesn’t enter the biosphere.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by aziaziazi on Sunday August 13, 2023 @05:17AM (#37108128)
Oceans, marine fauna and marine flora are part of the biosphere.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by adastra22 on Sunday August 13, 2023 @09:31AM (#37109877)
None of those exist in the regions where these satellite renter. These are natural dead patches.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by aziaziazi on Sunday August 13, 2023 @10:35AM (#37110412)
Any evidence/reference to back this up?

Oceans are the cradle of life and are still populated by fishes, mammals, zoo and phytoplancton even away from coastlines.

http://comlmaps.org/gallery/footprints/

Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by adastra22 on Sunday August 13, 2023 @12:37PM (#37111511)
Not these areas.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/international/programmes/datelinepacif...

Abyssal zones of the ocean are only populated by creatures that feed on hydrothermal vents, or dead creatures falling down from the surface. But the mid pacific has no hydrothermal vents and the surface is a dead zone due to human activity. So there is no source of food for life to exist here, and outside of the occasional whale fall it is truly dead.

Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by aziaziazi on Sunday August 13, 2023 @01:14PM (#37111898)
Terrifying, didn’t know there’s a second patch on the south. The census map in my parent post show this area populated by “predators” but not much zooplankton, so not sure what lives there. There’s also probably a bunch of debris from nuclear tests in this region.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by wkat4242 on Sunday August 13, 2023 @12:11PM (#37111237)
Not soon. Most of these other rorsat reactors have been put in a parking/disposal orbit where they'll last a long time (I forgot how long bit I think it was in the order of thousands of years)

I'm kinda surprised the soviets even thought of the environment in that way.

Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by ethbr1 on Saturday August 12, 2023 @05:05PM (#37104214)
The idea is also to use this for solar system propulsion, rather than Earth to orbit.

Consequently, reactor payloads would be carried on a very small fraction of launches, then used in space for an extended amount of time.

Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by avar on Saturday August 12, 2023 @05:15PM (#37104296)

    > Or even if it broke up
    > in the atmosphere.
The atmosphere we've already detonated over 500 nuclear weapons in?
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by pixl97 on Saturday August 12, 2023 @07:03PM (#37105015)
Mostly about the ocean it would typically fall into in the most common failure shortly after launch scenario.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by Retric on Saturday August 12, 2023 @07:59PM (#37105289)
Nuclear testing got to carefully select locations to minimize harm, uncontrolled reentry of nuclear rockets has significantly less control.

It’s not the 99 rockets falling into the ocean shortly after launch that are problematic, it’s the 1 that almost works but then lands in the city we should be concerned with.

Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by TheSpiceIsLife on Saturday August 12, 2023 @10:40PM (#37106166)
* * *
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by askvictor on Saturday August 12, 2023 @11:28PM (#37106416)
Not falling on a city, but debris from Russia's launch last week was seen and heard in Melbourne, Australia: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-08-08/space-junk-leaves-tra...

That's pretty close for what would be high level nuclear material.

Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by flagrant_taco on Sunday August 13, 2023 @12:34AM (#37106710)
We might see more obvious direct human impact from debris landed in cities, but nuclear debris falling into the ocean or land that isn't densely populated by humans still has plenty of bad side effects.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by m4rtink on Sunday August 13, 2023 @03:36AM (#37107555)
Sealed fuel capsule at the bottom of the ocean should not be a big deal - ideally you would fish it out and re-launch it. This has already been done with an RTG before.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by sandworm101 on Saturday August 12, 2023 @09:05PM (#37105644)
Nuclear weapons testing was mostly designed to maximize power output by burning up as much fissile material as possible in one big explosion. Conversely, it was meant to minimize fallout. A broken nuclear reactor (no nuclear explosion) would be the opposite: lots and lots of fallout (broken reactor bits) scattered over a wide area. The radioactivity from a broken nuclear rocket could be more dangerous than that from a great many bombs.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by askvictor on Saturday August 12, 2023 @11:32PM (#37106428)
One solution would be have a kill-switch that detonates the reactor fuel as a nuclear bomb (assuming it could be configured in such a way; this is probably more difficult than I imagine). There would be major political problems with this approach though, as you're then shooting nuclear missiles.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by ragebol on Sunday August 13, 2023 @12:40AM (#37106740)
Even as a layman in these things, I know that a nuclear reactor is far, far from a nuclear bomb and isn't easily made one. You can't 'configure' a reactor to become a bomb.

A better way would just be shielding, make sure it stays in 1 piece through reentry and impact. And still doesn't leak radiation then.

Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by seanmcdirmid on Sunday August 13, 2023 @12:47AM (#37106784)
Can’t we just send up the propulsion system and the fuel separately? So like, ya, either could fail, but one is just some fancy equipment being g destroyed and the other is…unert uranium or plutonium coming down, needing to be cleaned up but not in a particular dangerous mode. Then once in orbit and the risk of crashing into earth is much less, put them together, fire up the reactor and go?
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by dghlsakjg on Sunday August 13, 2023 @01:42AM (#37107037)
I suspect that the fuel separate from the reactor is still a major risk.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by adastra22 on Sunday August 13, 2023 @04:36AM (#37107878)
It can’t be configured that way. That’s simply not how reactors or bombs work.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by m4rtink on Sunday August 13, 2023 @03:33AM (#37107542)
Reactors that have not yet been started do not contain that much radioactivity actually, nuclear detonation creates a lot of gunk during the energetic phase due to neutron activation and similar processes.

Also you can presumably shield reactors to survive reentry or even ship the fuel in multiple such reentry proof containers. And of course longer term build these in space, given nuclear propulsion is basically in space only anyway given its characteristics.

Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by SkyMarshal on Saturday August 12, 2023 @06:37PM (#37104842)
>As space expands exponentially (as it is likely to do so in the future), failures will become relatively regular.

Or it could go the way of the airline industry where failures become less regular as the industry develops ways of systematically reducing them.

Also, nuclear rockets should probably be launched to earth orbit in pieces, separately, so that if any one launch fails it won’t create a nuclear accident in the biosphere. Then assemble and power up the nuclear rocket as far away from earth as possible.

Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by numpad0 on Saturday August 12, 2023 @08:36PM (#37105485)
The solution to this is to build it in the moon from moon rocks and send it by maglev trains. Full scale spaceships can be 3D printed in parts, assembled on-orbit, and Dragon/Starliner class rowboats can be used to board it.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by m4rtink on Sunday August 13, 2023 @03:38AM (#37107574)
Longer term - definitely thats the way to go. But first we need to build all this infrastructure & nuclear termal propulsion might be already necessary to get there.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by jamesaurichs on Saturday August 12, 2023 @04:26PM (#37103939)
US seems to be in a hardware/science renaissance, now that there is a new Cold War enemy, and manufacturing and research are being brought back to US.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by echelon on Saturday August 12, 2023 @04:35PM (#37104016)
Peace time = smart phone incrementalism, social media, ad tech, Bitcoin, NFTs, WeWork, low interest rate malinvestment, Twitter/Tumblr pessimism

Cold war = rocket science, new fuels, materials science, major computing advancements, supply chain changes, innovation, science hype, broad optimism

I know most of this is happenstance and that peace time doesn't itself cause lackluster development, but it is interesting and palpable.

I was so down on 2000 - 2020, but the decade ahead is exciting, and I'm filled with motivation.

Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by vkou on Saturday August 12, 2023 @05:55PM (#37104589)
Broad optimism? Science hype? Are we living in the same country?
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by rbanffy on Saturday August 12, 2023 @06:22PM (#37104760)
One thing I learned from the outside, the US - like any large country, BTW - is wildly diverse in pretty much every aspect.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by cheese_van on Saturday August 12, 2023 @07:31PM (#37105165)
It's almost intuitive if you consider the distance from Bangor to LA is pretty much the same distance as Madrid to Moscow. Think of the diversity between Madrid and Moscow. Bangor to LA won't take you through an equal amount of diverse cultures, the US is a single country after all, but the diversity is certainly there.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by rbanffy on Sunday August 13, 2023 @08:31PM (#37116118)
Not that intuitive, as the country has a language in common and one can simply drive from Bangor to LA without any local government asking questions. I have the impression cultural differences spring more from the economic and educational ones, unlike Madrid and Moscow, which have very long histories that are almost completely disconnected for most of that time.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by rbanffy on Saturday August 12, 2023 @06:20PM (#37104745)
> Cold war = rocket science, new fuels, materials science, major computing advancements, supply chain changes, innovation, science hype, broad optimism

Next time the cold war cools down, we need to invent something to replace it.

Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by gpderetta on Saturday August 12, 2023 @06:59PM (#37104997)
They tried with the war on terror, but it just wasn't the same thing.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by rbanffy on Sunday August 13, 2023 @07:37PM (#37115733)
That one was about oil.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by numpad0 on Saturday August 12, 2023 @08:15PM (#37105373)
Hot war in outer spaces is should do. War is fine so long 1.(selfishly) it won't kill me, 2. it has no chance of ending the humanity, and 3. the sites devastated can recover.

Colonial wars in the asteroid belt and beyond. Interstellar wars. Maybe the first FTL drive could be on an autonomous space torpedo, and that could be lore explanation for the shape of warp nacelles in this timeline.

Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by safety1st on Sunday August 13, 2023 @02:31AM (#37107221)
As wacky as this all sounds it's definitely not the worst possible outcome. Megalomaniacs ruling over tribes, kingdoms and nation states have been throwing their people into bloody wars since the dawn of time.

If America and China are dead set on having another dick measuring contest, we're all much better off if they do it with drones halfway between here and the moon, instead of near earthbound population centers. By all means let's make outer space the future of war, as far away from humans as possible.

Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by m4rtink on Sunday August 13, 2023 @03:47AM (#37107616)
That should also help with the post battle debris situation - most lunar orbits are inherently unstable, so any debris should auto clean in a relatively short while, unlike with many important Earth orbits where stuff might stay up for millenia due atmospheric drag being just too low.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by flagrant_taco on Sunday August 13, 2023 @12:44AM (#37106770)
2000-2020 want exactly peacetime.

The US declared war on the concept of terrorism in 2001, directly invaded two nations as part of that effort, and overthrew multiple governments before ultimately abandoning the war and handing a broken Afghanistan back to the Taliban in 2021.

We did an excellent job of making sure the war was fought on foreign soil and largely stayed out of our daily life back home, but we definitely were at war.

(I'm focusing on the US here, but there were quite a few other major conflicts and military coups around the world during the same time)

Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by rany_ on Sunday August 13, 2023 @01:18AM (#37106915)
Well, you could make the argument that during the 2000-2020s the US was at war with undeveloped countries that definitely had no chance of dethroning the US technologically; this is different because China is in a position to do just that.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by flagrant_taco on Sunday August 13, 2023 @07:52AM (#37109027)
For sure there are differences in the enemy if you consider us already at war with China and/or Russia. It's my personal opinion that WWIII kicked off the day Russia's navy left port and circled around Europe to get to the Mediterranean (Dec 2021), but we haven't technically declared war yet.

Its worth noting that Afghanistan may be less developed technologically but they have now successfully fended off invasions from both the Soviet Union and the US. Never underestimate your enemy in war, especially if you're Goliath invading David's home.

Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by 0xDEF on Saturday August 12, 2023 @04:47PM (#37104105)
From across the pond it feels like American millennials and Gen-Z have already declared their country to be a failed state.

How much can a nation progress if its youth is pessimistic about everything? It doesn't matter whether the pessimism is based on actual problems (healthcare, housing prices etc.) or learned through terminally online reddit/twitter consumption.

Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by SonicScrub on Saturday August 12, 2023 @04:59PM (#37104184)
As the folk-wisdom goes "Twitter isn't real life". The ones who have that opinion are the terminally online.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by godzillabrennus on Saturday August 12, 2023 @06:40PM (#37104861)
It’s amazing reading this knowing a billionaire squandered that brand name after pouring billions into acquiring it. I hope when the smoldering ruins are auctioned at the bankruptcy proceedings jack gets to buy it back and uses it for his decentralized network.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by bogota on Saturday August 12, 2023 @04:51PM (#37104136)
Don’t confuse what you read online or in the news with what is actually happening.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by jamesaurichs on Saturday August 12, 2023 @04:57PM (#37104172)
If we're talking about the contents on TikTok, there's probably a very good reason why the ultimate owner of TikTok, the Chinese government, wants that kind of content to be the majority sentiment on the platform.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by goodbyesf on Saturday August 12, 2023 @06:28PM (#37104791)
Are all your comments propaganda talking points? Every single one of your comments is anti-china propaganda talking points we hear everywhere.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by asu_thomas on Saturday August 12, 2023 @04:46PM (#37104100)
Personally, I'd rather prioritize our fellow citizens having a dry place to sleep at night.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by version_five on Saturday August 12, 2023 @05:33PM (#37104440)
It's funny because it's this, turning inward and waging war on ourselves after there wasn't an obvious enemy anymore that's responsible for the decline the upstream comment was talking about. Post WWII through the 90s saw massive increases in global standard of living, 2020's the west has gone back to religious squabbles over absurd ideological things. Watchmen had a similar idea.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by pixl97 on Saturday August 12, 2023 @07:12PM (#37105065)
Post WWII understood how terrible war was. Post 90s those that experienced it in mass were going extinct. We forgot what fascism did to the past and too many are embracing it again.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by WalterBright on Saturday August 12, 2023 @08:14PM (#37105364)
Or the definition of fascism has expanded to cover all one's political enemies.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by pixl97 on Sunday August 13, 2023 @02:39AM (#37107266)
https://youtu.be/9XTJNy_OrjE

Why does the definition need expanded?

Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by zaptrem on Saturday August 12, 2023 @04:49PM (#37104122)
Investment in space has historically led to a disproportionate return in economic growth.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by FirmwareBurner on Saturday August 12, 2023 @07:13PM (#37105068)
Probably because there is no oil in space and nobody to sell ads to.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by ben_w on Saturday August 12, 2023 @07:42PM (#37105215)
The people making these aren't any good at building houses.

The lack of housing is, IMO, a failure of government — material costs for homes are surprisingly low compared to everything else — but even then, housing policy is a different department to the space stuff.

Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by FirmwareBurner on Saturday August 12, 2023 @08:00PM (#37105290)
>The lack of housing is, IMO, a failure of government

Lack of housing is a "feature", not a bug, as it enriches the housing owning class and makes it more difficult for "undesirable" people to move in with NIMBYs.

Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by ben_w on Sunday August 13, 2023 @05:09AM (#37108078)
That's still a failure. Bad Nash equilibriums are still bad.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by FirmwareBurner on Sunday August 13, 2023 @07:17AM (#37108830)
Not for the wealthy. It will only be a failure when the poor start eating the rich, but we're far away from that.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by deprecative on Sunday August 13, 2023 @03:02AM (#37107365)
Then take some from the bombs used to kill people. It's a false dichotomy to say if we spend anything on space we can't spend anything on problems on Earth.
Re:US Government is taking serious step toward space-based n... by jeltz on Sunday August 13, 2023 @03:43AM (#37107597)
That is not a budget issue. We could fix that if we want to, people just do not want to.