I mean showing you ads for diapers because you googled "best diapers" falls under that same category and I daresay isn't evil at all

I am pretty convinced that modern advertising - from the most inane and innocent to tracking users 24/7 pretty clearly falls under evil. Gone are the days of advertising trying to raise product awareness and convert purchases - that field now exists to create demand. It induces desires in the recipients that play on psychological factors like FOMO to create customers out of thin air - and that process causes we the consumer to pay a constant attention tax and suffer higher levels of stress in our daily lives.

Advertising is evil.

I'm not a radical about many subjects, but I'm certainly radically anti-advertising.

Advertising is nudge theory without the do-gooder mystique

You do realize all forms of media embed advertising directly into the content going right back to the beginning, right? There's nothing modern about it. Showing you a product when you actually want to see it is the most effective way to induce demand. All your favorite shows, movies, youtube personalities, etc. still do this.

Well, seeing that:

- I use ad blockers for my browser on both mobile and PC

- pay for the ad free version of all of my streaming providers

- don’t use apps that have ads and don’t have a method to pay to get rid of them

If you think that the product that the lead actor in the series your marathoning through on your streaming provider isn't there on purpose, then you've just not been paying attention. There's a reason shows blur out logos on people's clothing or the crew covers them up with grip tape, or set dressers turn the cans/bottles/boxes of products around so the main logos are not visible. Even having copyrighted posters on the wall in frame can cause licensing issues.

This isn't true. Originally advertising was designed around the premise of explicitly highlighting utility and functionality of goods/content. It wasn't until Bernays came along and adapted his uncle Sigmund Freud's theories into practice by designing advertising to manipulate people into believing that they actually need the product.

Modern advertising is not just "showing a product to induce demand". Car adverts don't just highlight functionality, they use mass market analytics to play emotionally driven messaging and visuals so that you associate that feeling with the car ad.

Do you know what Bernays called what services he offered before the word got tarnished?

Propaganda.

The documentary "Century of Self" by Adam Curtis [0] certainly opened my eyes to the damage that Bernays has inflicted on society in general.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ3RzGoQC4s

Same. Filed under haunting things you can never unknow.

Two years after the 'Century Of Self', Adam released 'The Power Of Nightmares' (2004): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yK3wz-OyR1U

It explores the power fear has to shape behavior.

> Bernays came along and adapted his uncle Sigmund

and then bernays' nephew started netflix

Those two categories are really far away from each other.

Googling X is a voluntary act to search for X.

Speaking about X with a friend, while the phone sits in a bag nearby, has exactly zero connotations of wanting to search for X.

* * *

> Advertising, by its very nature, is emotional manipulation with the goal of getting you to give up some of your money for something you most likely don't really need and won't improve your life all that much

I've heard somewhere that ads are rich people screaming "give me money".

(i know, i know, but i like it)

> To me, that's evil.

Bill Hicks on marketing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHEOGrkhDp0

> I've heard somewhere that ads are rich people screaming "give me money".

That makes me think of this Paul Graham piece on "the PR industry, lurking like a huge, quiet submarine beneath the news." [0]

[0] http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html

He makes one really good insight:

> If you really want to be a critical reader, it turns out you have to step back one step further, and ask not just whether the author is telling the truth, but why he's writing about this subject at all.

Followed quickly by being hopelessly naïve about the future:

> Whatever its flaws, the writing you find online is authentic. It's not mystery meat cooked up out of scraps of pitch letters and press releases, and pressed into molds of zippy journalese. It's people writing what they think.

I don’t have any ethical concerns with ads. My concern is that it ruins the experience of whatever content I’m trying to consume.

Surprisingly though, for some reason I don’t find podcast ads to be as offensive.

>you most likely don't really need and won't improve your life all that much, if at all

People are spending money because they see that they are getting value from something. If people didn't want it or thought it was worseless they would not buy it.

>If people didn't want it or thought it was worseless [sic] they would not buy it.

Thinking something is "worthless" and not wanting something are opinions. A lot of modern advertising attempts to change peoples' opinions, so that they do want something, and think something has worth. It's just like propaganda, which actively attempts to sway peoples' opinions.

Of course, there's only so far you can take this. Convincing anyone who isn't seriously mentally impaired that a sandwich made with literal shit isn't worthless is probably not going to work. But away from the extreme end, there's a lot of room to manipulate people.

Sure, if you take the most benign examples, it doesn't sound so bad. But it's so much worse than that. Going back to 2012 for "acting on data analysis gone wrong"

Target Sends Coupons to Pregnant Girl and Unawares Dad Explodes

https://www.workplaceethicsadvice.com/2012/02/target-sends-c...

> Pole had identified about 25 products that, when analyzed together, allowed him to assign each shopper a "pregnancy prediction" score. More important, he could also estimate her due date to within a small window, so Target could send coupons timed to very specific stages of her pregnancy.

And things just get worse from there, as companies figure out more and more ways they can extract information from the information they have about you, and share it with each other.

But that story was made up. (Not that Target does data analysis - the specific "teenage girl had sex!" anecdote).

No no no. First we start with trusted brands you know and love. We use the trust you have in them to slowly build a market around them. With our ad strategy, you’ll start seeing our product as related to Trusted Brand A. You will start seeing comments and reviews for our Brand in the same browsing contexts more and more until our Brand is now correlated enough to Trusted Brand A to remove purchase inhibitions.

After that, we just wait. We know we have you. It’s just a matter of time till you need a product like ours (you’re already our target demo), or an impulse buy occurs.

Without evening knowing it. You’ve been manipulated into trusting our brand, and you’ll think it was all an organic choice.

Nothing malicious or dangerous here.. move along.

sorry, i don’t mean to be dense here but could you spell out the implications for me? why is what you’re suggesting more scary?

They're saying it's scarier that ad companies can figure out these things without the data because it means that you can't protect yourself by withholding your data.

> you can't protect yourself

but what are you protecting yourself from? What's the threat model?

Among other things, I would say the unknown collation of personal history, interests and spending activity that is often auctioned off to the highest bidder.[1][2] In an even more automated society than today, social scoring becomes the norm, and with it access to services.

With prolific cases as Robodebt and the Toeslagen Affaire, we can only hope these automated scoring systems remain isolated from governmental overreach.[3][4]

[1]: https://themarkup.org/privacy/2023/06/08/from-heavy-purchase...

[2]: https://themarkup.org/privacy/2023/06/23/how-your-attention-...

[3]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robodebt_scheme

[4]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_childcare_benefits_sca...

You're protecting yourself from targeted psychological manipulation. It's like the difference between someone spraying a cyber-attack over the entire IPv4 space. or spending a while trying to drill into a specific server. The latter is much scarier and harder to resist, but it's basically what targeted advertising is these days. They supposedly want to just help you find what you want to buy, but they do this by trying to make you want things you wouldn't actually need otherwise.

I like to think I'm immune (the only ad I've ever taken up was years ago for Privacy(.com), and only because I then knew about it later, and could choose to pursue it on my own), but I wouldn't be surprised if at some point before I started being allergic to every type of advertisement imaginable, some ads managed to get my attention for one reason or another. (maybe subliminal messaging's done something before, I dunno.)

I'm not too concerned about it since I know it's been kept to a minimum, so at this point basically everything I've done is something I actually wanted to do, there are no concerns about having been manipulated. But that's just because I've managed to avoid seeing targeted ads almost whatsoever.

Of course, someone who has been successfully manipulated would also think they've escaped manipulation. Isn't that the scariest part

Depends on the method of manipulation but yeah that is the scary part. It's probably part of what scares people into being so privacy conscious in the first place. Though for me it's more that I get really, really annoyed getting told to do things, because it triggers pathological demand avoidance. But that's just manipulating me in reverse (it's really easy to make me hate/avoid something just by annoying me with it)

At some point a reality check should be possible. Do you find yourself spending money on advertised-things?

That's the metric I usually use. It's absolutely inconclusive, but it works for peace of mind at least. Have I seen any ads for something I bought? Usually the answer is "no". I'm still at the mercy of sort order on sites like Amazon and eBay, but that's much less scary because if I really care, I can sort by lowest price first.

By my own moral compass. If a company says "lots of people on Amazon are looking to buy what we have, let's make sure we're present in that market", that's completely moral. Compare that with, "a child is preparing for their math test tomorrow by watching a video, let's interrupt them and make them watch a commercial about our sugary, addictive, and unhealthy drink".

Is it even possible to not spend money on advertised things?

Mostly by not spending money frivolously.

The house I live in was advertised when it was on sale, all the food at the store gets advertised, all the non-bespoke clothes I can buy get advertised, as do most of the bespoke ones, every car gets advertised...

The difference is whether those ads were exposed to you before you bought it. Was it a factor in your decision?

Not whether it's something in the world that's ever been marketed at all, because literally everything has.

Generally yes. Especially the grocery store is constantly advertising hundreds of items, and I've looked at their ad pages more than once. And it's pretty hard to find houses outside of advertising platforms, and I used to watch enough TV that I'd seen ads for every clothing store and every car before I had a chance to find them on my own.

Deanonymizing people across datasets for one. Maybe attacker or maybe next gov that goes full Hitler and subpenas tech companies to introduce social karma and you are put on a no-fly list because you expressed interest in UK royalty or have a cousin in Iran. Invisible bubble and radicalization for another.

Firstly there is the emotional response: I don't want to be followed around in everything that I do for someone else's benefit, and I not at all convinced of arguments that targetted advertising is done for my benefit.

Then there is the fact that a large amount of data about me is being stored, possibly insecurely for people with even less scruples to analyse. I have very little to hide (white, middle class, straight, male, cis, no criminal activity beyond some unlicensed TV/film access, etc – there is little or nothing about me that would be frightening for anyone else to know) but there are many out there who do have things that could be (unfairly) held against them with terrible consequences. Consider women in Texas where there is effectively a reward/bounty program to encourage snitching on those who have had, or are considering, an abortion, or people in law enforcement who don't want certain groups to be able to derive their home address with any accuracy, people in one or more closets through fear of being ostracised from their family/community and left pennyless & without support, and so forth. I grew up with friends who were gay when it was still effectively illegal to be, despite what the Sexual Offences Act (1967) said, and when getting beaten up for being gay was almost acceptable (“act more straight, and it wouldn't have happened”: something a friend was once told by a policeman that saw no cause for arrest) – the fear of consequences from collected information “getting out” and/or being used to derive other information (true or otherwise) is real and for many people not at all irrational.

Back to my icky feelings, which are perhaps a little bit less rational: I wouldn't be happy with someone following me between shops, watching what I'm perusing, then to the pub and noting who I was there with, then back to my home, in order to be able to serve me relevant ads (perhaps for shoes that would be more comfortable for that much walking? or for condoms because they noticed I was accompanied by a female friend, and you never know, right, nudge nudge wink wink), and I'm not happy about the same happening in a more virtual environment. How do I trust that is really (or only) why I'm being followed? And I how do I know who else my stalker is selling news of my activity to?

[actually, the “I have little or nothing to fear” isn't entirely right – any of us could suffer from plain old identity theft in various ways]

I understood this to mean the amount of information they have is enough to uniquely fingerprint you and associate that with your derived wants and needs.

> The ad companies being able to know things about you without actually listening to you is even more scary.

This has been true for years to the extent that the nature of your purchases can tell a lot about you. https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-targ...