News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by makingstuffs on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @10:36AM (#37063361)
People need to stop trying to make things return to the original office model.

Employees have realised we are equally as effective working from home and simply do not want to waste 2+ UNPAID hours of every day travelling to a corporate building for the sake of it.

Nor do people want to spend £10+ a day on food and drinks which they have in their fridge, at home.

Then there is also the social pressure of having to go for after work socials at the local boozer/cafe/restaurant, or be seen as the person who never joins the team for social stuff.

There are so many benefits to working from home which reach beyond personal and into society/the environment but very few benefits to going into an office. The one reason which supporters of the original office model tout is ‘collaboration’ but I call BS.

With today’s tech we can literally be collaborating in real-time with people from any corner of the planet from the comfort of our home office. How would that change in office?

Then you have the whole “oh, but, learning” as if it is simply impossible to part with knowledge via any medium other than a coworker’s breath hitting another’s eardrum.

Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by downrightmike on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @10:43AM (#37063454)
Humans have only been working in offices since the industrial revolution, before that it was nearly all WFH. WFH is our natural state.
Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by layer8 on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @10:56AM (#37063668)
This wasn’t true for any kind of collaborative work requiring physical presence.
Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by kjkjadksj on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @11:01AM (#37063756)
Well to be fair, peasants helping eachother to raise a barn is technically working from home. This idea of commuting has only been possible with a means to move labor from one region to another versus having cottage industries ran out of the home. That came with the horsedrawn streetcar.
Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by charcircuit on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @12:14PM (#37064875)
Having to go and visit a construction site is not working from home.
Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by jandrese on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @11:30AM (#37064216)
It was true when "industry" was in the first floor of your house or two houses down on the estate/plantation. This was not that long ago. If you visit historic sites from the 1800s it was extremely common to find workshops among the servant housing. Not only for the estate, but for export to the local community.

Long commutes aren't practical when the roads are bad and the fastest mode of personal transportation is a horse.

Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by gspencley on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @10:43AM (#37063466)
> Employees have realised we are equally as effective working from home and simply do not want to waste 2+ UNPAID hours of every day travelling to a corporate building for the sake of it.

Not only is it unpaid, it actually costs the employee money. In the worst case you need a car + the insurance, fuel and maintenance costs associated. In the best case you still need to pay for public transportation.

> Nor do people want to spend £10+ a day on food and drinks which they have in their fridge, at home.

Eating out regularly is also hazardous to your health. In my experience and opinion there is no such thing as a healthy dining option. There are varying degrees of poisonous; some options are certainly better than others; but if you're trying to be strict with your diet then forget eating out daily.

Then add the stress of a commute, workplace hazards, risks associated with commuting (I have a ZERO chance of getting killed in a car accident when I'm not travelling in a car), risks associated with communicable diseases and there is a case to be made that working in an office is actually hazardous to your health.

Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by dom96 on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @12:55PM (#37065486)
That's all fair, though there is one clear advantage that commuting has (via certain modes of transport) and that is exercise.

I say this as someone that loves working from home, but before I did so I would get thousands of steps in every day running towards the tube in London and around all the platforms. Dunno, maybe the positive health benefits of the steps are outweighed by how polluted the air in London (and likely even more so the tube) is.

But getting less steps in every day due to WFH is a real problem.

Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by gspencley on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @02:07PM (#37066430)
This will depend on how you commute. I agree that exercise is important but if I were commuting within the city that I live, I would be driving to work and walking maybe 10 steps to my car and 20 steps to my desk. In a large urban centre where you are dependent on public transit then this might be a benefit.
Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by barbazoo on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @02:17PM (#37066556)
> But getting less steps in every day due to WFH is a real problem.

It is! The solution is to walk more and everyone gets to decide how, we're all grown ups.

Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by BluePen8 on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @02:26PM (#37066658)
As someone recovering from a back injury, I was excited as hell to work from home.

6-8 weeks later, I wondered why my back hurt so damn much.

I had no idea how much my office’s slow elevators and 5 flights of stairs had been helping, had to manually add that back into my life.

Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by astockwell on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @01:00PM (#37065563)
A recent HN comment on another post highlighted the irony of corporate messaging:

“Come back to the office”

“We’ll be resuming periodic Active Shooter drills”

Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by ThunderSizzle on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @08:37PM (#37070332)
Best part is when the employer's advice for an active shooter is hope they don't shoot you while you hide and wait. Most handbooks don't permit weapons.

My home's policy is the active shooter gets shot immediately until they are no longer a threat.

Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by abenga on Thursday August 10, 2023 @02:02AM (#37072485)
Wow. Sounds dystopic over there.
Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by ThunderSizzle on Thursday August 10, 2023 @11:38AM (#37077592)
It really is. Leftists want people to live on top of each other, de-fund police, de-enforce safety and criminal laws, and take away your ability to defend yourself, and prosecuting anyone who does so, while parroting how dangerous school and workplace shootings are so we all need gun control.

It really is a weird reality we live in. You can't have all of the above and not be subjecting innocent people to violent criminals.

EDIT: In other words, you want dense cities? Then you need exemplary policing (both in terms of respecting citizens and keeping them safe).

You don't want police? Then people need to defend themselves and protect themselves.

You don't want people defending themselves in urban areas? Then you either have to have exemplary policing or less urban areas.

Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by BluePen7 on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @02:50PM (#37066910)
When I switched to WFH, it was amazing suddenly finding an extra 5 figures annually in my pocket.

Commuting is also the most dangerous thing the average person does.

My wife only commutes in 4 days a month, and we still have dashcam footage from multiple close calls.

Recently a pickup truck cut someone off and hit their car, then proceeded to flee during rush hour. In traffic doing about 20MPH he swerves though a hair away from my wife at over 60MPH. She asked me to check the footage because the wind force was so strong she wasn't sure he didn't graze her.

Everyone looks at you crazy if you want to do an extreme sport, or even something like dirtbiking, but on my old commute there'd be 2-3 major accidents a week, a death every week or two, and nobody bats an eye. All so I can log into a data centre in North Virginia, that's nowhere near me.

Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by AlInGaP_Diode on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @11:12AM (#37063938)
> Then you have the whole “oh, but, learning” as if it is simply impossible to part with knowledge via any medium other than a coworker’s breath hitting another’s eardrum.

I find it a lot more effective to msg technical questions instead of talking as I can reread a dense statement to help internalize and can also reference it later. WFH is great for learning

Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by PartiallyTyped on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @12:01PM (#37064675)
Pair programming is also easier.

Today I pair programmed with a junior engineer across the country, he was in his own 21x9 setup, with his colour scheme, and I was on my laptop at work with my light theme. It was perfect.

Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by charcircuit on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @12:19PM (#37064940)
All of that would be possible in person, excluding doing it across the country. Being in person also reduces the friction in junior engineers asking you to pair program with them.
Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by pnt12 on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @12:39PM (#37065260)
Senior: let's pair on this.

Junior: sure.

Slightly easier than traveling half a country!

Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by webdood90 on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @11:24AM (#37064117)
I suspect the lines are typically drawn between introverts and extroverts, so it's unfair to generalize here.

I work remote and we don't have an office near me, but I'd love to go back. My job is where I spend the majority of my life. I like to get to know the people I work with by socializing over lunch, after work social events, etc. It's how I meet people.

Collaborating remotely also sucks. You miss out on a lot of non-verbal communication vs in person.

It's fine if it's not your jam and all of the above sounds like hell to you - it just means I don't want to work with you.

Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by toolz on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @11:45AM (#37064425)
I struggle to see an ethical argument one could make to force rigid in-office work for anything but the smallest of companies (when the work could be done remotely). Eventually (and it won't take long) you'll hire someone that would benefit in many ways from flexible work and the only detriment will be that you would have to utilize your flexibility to satisfy your own personality traits the same as everyone else, rather than have rigid, harmful rules, that cater only to your preferences.
Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by fernandotakai on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @11:54AM (#37064571)
i'm 100% an extrovert. i still prefer working from home.

why? because i like having my own office, with a door that i can close. i like that i have my own setup, specifically designed by me so i can be as comfortable as possible. i love that i can stop work for 30min and just play with my dog or talk to my wife. oh, and i LOVE that i have privacy and i don't have someone looking at what i'm doing for 8h.

Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by throwaway290 on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @12:16PM (#37064897)
How horrible are those offices people talk about (I guess in US)? Is it really the norm that people look over your shoulder?

I like when it's quiet and private but I also like to come work from an office... Even though it's a basic small shared space and I literally work from my laptop (can't be bothered to hook up the screen etc). I do like not having to do it every day so I am free to come or not but I look forward to it usually. Or I may go out to that area for other reasons and just drop by.

Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by mrguyorama on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @12:53PM (#37065447)
If you've never seen one, an open office looks like a lan party. A really really busy and cramped one.
Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by mfitton on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @02:43PM (#37066845)
At my place, there are desks (about 4 feet wide, set in rows of 6, with people's backs facing each other and no dividers). There are about 200 desks, and about 250 employees. Desks need to be reserved, keyboard, mouse and charger all need to be brought by the employee to their desk each day. 50 or so people don't get desks and have to sit on couches, stools in the kitchen with no backs, or the floor.

The CEO said that we should just feel grateful that we have an air-conditioned office with snacks to come back to, poo-poo'd the concerns over: a lack of desks, the high noise-levels, the fact that most teams are distributed and so much of the open office is sitting in a remote zoom call talking over one another...

It's an incredibly hard environment to work in, and I was shocked that my company's CEO was so out-of-touch. Of course, he has a private office.

Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by ryandrake on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @04:41PM (#37068088)
There's nothing quite as ridiculous as an open office with row after row of employees sitting shoulder to shoulder, half of whom are loudly talking on video calls with their teams which are distributed among other offices where they are also sitting shoulder to shoulder in an open office. I'd be shocked that any deep concentration work gets done in such an environment.

EDIT: Furthermore, I think some execs in tech companies (particularly those who never were engineers) really believe that's how software development happens! Like if you ask your company's CEO how software gets written, he pictures this Wall Street-like trading floor where engineers are yacking at each other, and having standup meetings and flailing about at whiteboards, and that's the sound/busy-ness of engineering being done!

Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by throwaway290 on Thursday August 10, 2023 @02:34AM (#37072661)
Ouch. I see why people would WFH...
Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by 121789 on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @01:45PM (#37066174)
I don't think that's the only line - I am pretty introverted but like having a place outside of my home where I can work. It's enough of a "default mildly social" situation to not feel isolated or restless if I want to do something like watch a movie or read at night (and I have a partner but that's not the same). I'd say most of the variability can be explained with three questions 1. Do you have a long commute? 2. Do you have a nice working environment at the office? 3. Do you have kids?
Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by hcks on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @11:30AM (#37064215)
It’s over. You WILL take showers in the morning. You WILL wash your clothes. You WILL commute to the office. You WILL chat with your colleagues at breaks. And you WILL be happy.
Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by lampshades on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @11:58AM (#37064631)
I'm currently going through interviews and I think "collaboration" and communication is a real thing WFH is missing. You say that people can collaborate real-time from any corner of the planet but that hasn't been my experience. I have had two companies in the last few weeks (out of like 5) where my recruiter had no idea what stage of the process I was in because at some other point some recruiter had picked me up. I had no idea what was going on and neither did they. And when they find out that there is a dual-recruiting process happening, they call me to ask what's happening instead of asking their teammate. So stupid, man.

It doesn't stop there. When I'm actually at work, I'm constantly waiting for hours for responses unless I pull in a manager to move things along. While it's true that with today's tech we can collaborate anywhere, that's not what I see happening in practice. I constantly see miscommunication and misunderstandings that normally would take 10 minutes at someone's cube to resolve that end up taking DAYS to resolve.

Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by ilaksh on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @12:36PM (#37065213)
Those are process failures. People need to be responsible on some electronic communication medium and if they can't do that then they have to be fired.
Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by danbolt on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @12:41PM (#37065285)
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. If the org has a clear goal and is organized enough, this sort of work can easily be distributed asynchronously.
Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by lampshades on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @01:09PM (#37065671)
I don't disagree but I've been dealing with it for years now (since COVID) and nobody has seemed to be able to fix it.
Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by lowbloodsugar on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @01:34PM (#37066033)
Sure. Management stupidity and employee incompetence certainly wasn't a thing before COVID! I really like this new comic from Scott Adams called Dilbert [1] that gets a good laugh from how incompetent things have gotten since COVID! /s

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilbert

Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by lampshades on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @03:25PM (#37067322)
I'm not sure why you think what you said is relevant. Also, you seem insufferable.

Edit: oh, it's probably the autism.

Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by smoldesu on Thursday August 10, 2023 @12:36PM (#37078361)
I'm not sure how you missed OP's joke, and then decided the proper course of action was to insult them rather than refuting them.
Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by lampshades on Thursday August 10, 2023 @12:39PM (#37078396)
Let me guess, you're autistic too?
Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by smoldesu on Thursday August 10, 2023 @12:52PM (#37078586)
Nope, just insufferable (apparently).

Mostly just shocked that this is what the site comes to, but I should have known better.

Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by lampshades on Thursday August 10, 2023 @01:32PM (#37079105)
Understandable.

Yeah, I'm a dick online, it's an outlet. No hard feelings.

Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by johnnyanmac on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @09:12PM (#37070596)
>Management stupidity and employee incompetence certainly wasn't a thing before COVID

problems change, and some problems get worse while others get better. No need to be snide, it's honestly a thing to consider when talking about these situations.

Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by PartiallyTyped on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @11:59AM (#37064638)
Re colab: I am in a team that is split across 4 cities, 2 countries, and an ocean. It literally makes no sense to demand that we are in the office.
Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by coffeebeqn on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @01:03PM (#37065598)
Commute to the office downtown. Have calls with teams in other locations over zoom while they’re with aggressive noise canceling. What’s not to love ?
Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by albrewer on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @01:20PM (#37065837)
> Employees have realised we are equally as effective working from home and simply do not want to waste 2+ UNPAID hours of every day travelling to a corporate building for the sake of it.

I looked into the employment laws long ago about commutes to and from your home to your workplace. In general, you can't be paid for the commute unless it's to an "unusual" location more than a certain distance from your assigned workplace. It's been a long time since I read up on this subject, so I have no idea where I got the info.

I wonder if WFH will affect these rules - if your originally assigned office was "remote" and now you're forced to go in to a physical location, it could be argued that your employer changed your office location and will have to reimburse you for any commute.

Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by dqv on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @01:51PM (#37066258)
>In general, you can't be paid for the commute unless it's to an "unusual" location more than a certain distance from your assigned workplace.

There's nothing barring an employer from paying employees a "commute stipend". I think you probably read about what is taxable/nontaxable. It's probably taxable as income and that's the "can't", which isn't really a "can't" at all; it's more of a "won't because it's taxable".

Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by uhtred on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @03:39PM (#37067445)
I want to have my loud keyboard. I want my open back headphones. I want to be able to sit on the floor and stretch during the day. I want to be able to go for a walk and enjoy the summer at 5.30 with my wife rather than endure a fucking awful commute and get home at 7. I want to eat good food that I make for lunch and not some over salted expensive trash from whatever is near the office. I want to choose my own chair, even if I have to pay for it. I don't want to feel cold all day even in July because all the fat guys in the office crank the Air Con up. I don't want to have people around me coughing and sneezing who are proud that they didn't take the day off even though they are sick. I don't want to hear x's throat clearing, grating laugh, loud sneeze, and shitty opinions all day. I don't want to wear noise cancelling headphones all day but I have to because of all this. I don't want to be in a room with the same 30 people for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week.
Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by johnnyanmac on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @09:10PM (#37070581)
>With today’s tech we can literally be collaborating in real-time with people from any corner of the planet from the comfort of our home office. How would that change in office?

from my experience, collaboration is nice, after you establish the design. WFH was awful for brainstorming and more than simple design/architecturing processes. That delay in communicating ideas on a virtual whiteboard can be felt.

Re:Want employees to return to the office? Then give each on... by dennis_jeeves1 on Thursday August 10, 2023 @05:22PM (#37081955)
>Employees have realised we are equally as effective working from home and simply do not want to waste 2+ UNPAID hours of every day travelling to a corporate building for the sake of it.

Most were effectively fools to not realize that before Covid. Now when will they start realizing that out of the 5 days that they work in a week they are working without compensation anywhere from 2 to 4 days effectively for the Govt/corporate/overlords because of taxation at various levels. ( taxesincome/property/sales, inflation etc.)

To summarize the meta problem is the minions, not the corporations. In this day of automation most people should be having a lot of free time and relatively little work, but here were are in the year 2023 working and commuting our asses off.