As a Canadian cousin over here, if you can't tell the difference between a smile/a polite "Hi, how can I help you?"/a "have a nice day", and an actual conversation involving smalltalk, then you clearly don't know about what you're criticising.
In our part of the world, is there a social/cultural difference in expectations of the interaction with people around us, including workers in the service industry?
Yes, absolutely.
Is there something "weird" about that? No, absolutely not, and you can put down the superiority complex.
There is something weird though. Getting service from those minimum wage workers is not enough: people also demand their fake pleasure to serve and sympathy.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/careers/2022/10/24/how-...
Also, expecting friendly service is reasonable. Expecting poor service because the pay is low is backwards. We should expect better pay.
I get that some people are naturally nice and some others are not and find excuses not to be but all of cashiers in the supermarket I go to give you tired unconvincing robotic "Good morning/evening" and "Goodbye" and you can tell they are tired of it. Also they have to.
Would I be nice in a restaurant as a worker where people come to spend a special moment ? Yes, and I expect to be paid accordingly as it is part of my work. Serving people waiting in line in a fast food, will I be hostile ? No. Would I care about conversational etiquette serving people waiting in a fast food ? Hell no, I am not a smile delivery machine.
In the end it's all about stepping out of yourself and consider the reality the person in front of you is facing. Of course, if you've ever had to do a shitty job, that may help you.
Given long enough doing robotic work under what you seem unfair/dehumanizing conditions, the Slim Shady may come out. But who knows maybe you are a different breed, good for you.
E.g. Not getting enough sleep because your poor neighborhood is a ruckus provokes bad mood, chronically.
I've done hard labor (construction, landscaping), I've done food service (sandwich shop) and I've done lots of white collar office work. Wealthy people can be nice and decent to people who have a much smaller income AND vice versa.
At least waiters and strippers get tips for their show...
Why does one's income level dictate how they treat others? I was always told treat others how you would like to be treated.
At a sufficient enough and above. Below that the Clerks (as in the Kevin Smith movie) treatment is good enough.
In any case, "treating like a real human being" and putting on a show of smiles and friendliness US-style, is not even close to being the same thing.
In "real" human interaction, we understand the other as a person with their own feelings and mood, and we don't demand from anybody to exhibit a certain cheerful mood for us.
But of course this isn't about real human connection. It's more about "When I pay I demand those serving me to entertain me with smiles and pleasantries". The customer could not care less about the person serving them, or their condition, otherwise. "Real person" my ass.
Not all of us have had the luxury to spend our lives musing about trivial things like RuneScape, in between posting on white-collar tech forums.
I don't think you should read so much into my hobby either.
I’m also skeptical of the extent of your actual experience if you think this behavior is “out of line” in American society. It was quite routine in mine. The first time I saw someone throw food at the head of a cashier I was shocked, but quite quickly became inured.
You tried to attached the American cultural norm of manners and courtesy to their history of black slavery.
"Get a grip" is a pretty mild response to something so absurd, hyperbolic, and flat out insulting.
E.g. Not getting enough sleep because your poor neighborhood is a ruckus provokes bad mood, chronically.
You are asking the poor to have sympathy while not showing them empathy
Worker: F you, pay me.
That's literally his point, the whole friendly-service-with-a-smile thing is forced on them by their managers/corporate, it's not from a sincere desire to have an actual conversation with customers. And people will literally complain and get them in trouble if they don't do it.
Talk about irony, sitting here talking about a superiority complex while defending requiring that kind of stuff of "lowly" service industry workers.
Courtesy with customers is forced on them? My god!
The next thing you'll tell me they're expected not to curse at their co-workers, too! What kind of world is this?!
> it's not from a sincere desire to have an actual conversation with customers.
Once again, and as I already said in the very text you quoted, no one is expecting a "conversation". Maybe you just misunderstood my point? I admit I was being a bit circuitous, there.
> Talk about irony, sitting here talking about a superiority complex while defending requiring that kind of stuff of "lowly" service industry workers.
I never mentioned anything about their being "lowly", and I'd appreciate you not insinuating such things about me. It's a veiled insult and it's unwarranted and unnecessary.
See, courtesy. It's a thing, both in the real world and online.
Smiling isn’t about courtesy, respect, or professionalism. It’s a US cultural habit that is not universal in the rest of the world, ingrained into service industries, in service of demands that workers subsume all emotion in favor of providing “service with a smile”. Covid masking protocols were looked upon fondly by service industry workers specifically because they didn’t have to fake-smile anymore.
Don’t hold your breath for the return of fake-smiles, and don’t confuse the absence of a smile with the presence of negativity, discourtesy, disrespect, or unprofessionalism. It’s just a neutral face, delivering a neutral package to a neutral stranger.
And now we're back to cultural norms and expectations, and there's no point in arguing about something so very subjective.
The original complaint was about "weird" Americans and my entire point was that it's not that weird, it's just different.
And now we're just around and back where we started.
I've offered my perspective and there's little point in repeating it again. If you want to know how I'd respond, just go read my first comment on this thread.
HN users regularly discuss conflicting subjective cultural norms and expectations: when discussing Linux window managers, emacs, tabs versus spaces, the expectations of junior engineers in a startup, how much oncall is too much, the exact bytes of the new SVG logo when it first launched, and your own subjective viewpoint expressed above: whether smiles are a necessary part of courtesy at all.
Except you didn't present your viewpoint as subjective, did you?
No, like many of the other folks participating in this thread, you delivered it as objective truth:
> “Unsmiling” is not “unprofessional”.
> Smiling isn’t about courtesy, respect, or professionalism
Now in fairness, I'm not sure you even realize that's just an opinion.
Unfortunately, if you can't see that difference, then conversation devolves into an argument about those supposed "truths" and that's a conversation that cannot go anywhere since they aren't truths at all.
A meaningful conversation about differing cultural norms, how they might've come to be that way, how they work today, etc?
Yeah, that's interesting!
But if the goal is to just sling insults at folks and call people "weird" for having different subjective values? Yeah, I'll pass.
All descriptions of cultural norms are opinion by definition. Cultural ‘norms’ are, themselves, vastly more complex and interesting than any single statement can declare. Editorial word choice is necessary to express and discuss those perceived norms, and care must be taken to not overstate a viewpoint. I appreciate your concern, however. Thank you for taking the time to express it.
> Another issue was the smiling. Walmart requires its checkout people to flash smiles at customers after bagging their purchases. Plastic bags, plastic junk, plastic smiles. But because the German people don’t usually smile at total strangers, the spectacle of Walmart employees grinning like jackasses not only didn’t impress consumers, it unnerved them.
https://medium.com/the-global-millennial/why-walmart-failed-...
Unlike everyone disagreeing with me, I'm not the one claiming my values and expectations are in some way universal or superior (though I can see how I might be read that way giving I'm defending our shared culture in this area, which can appear that I'm in some way advocating for its superiority, something I assure you I'm not intending to do).
It was the original commenter, complaining about "weird" Americans, who seems to think their values are the "normal" ones, when as you've just illustrated, normal is meaningless when talking about social and cultural conventions.
Do Germans have different expectations? Of course. And Russians have theirs. And the Australians have theirs. And the Canadians have theirs. None are right or wrong or "weird", they just are.
I would even say It seems absurd when you realize it’s not universal.
Just because it is, doesn’t mean it should be.
I worked in a call center for two years, for three different companies. Yes, (fake) courtesy is forced. The customers of one site were so difficult that courtesy was scripted (there were scripted interactions for frustrated and for rude customers)
Yes, it's "forced" on them, in the same way that many many other behavioural expectations are "forced" on a worker. They're "forced" not to abuse their co-workers. They're "forced" to treat their workplace with respect. They're "forced" to dress in a certain way.
That's called "having a job", and it's all stuff I've had to do, too, in every job I've ever had.
By forced courtesy I mean there was a metric for that. Those with the worst metrics were let go and we were reminded of that weekly.
On the other hand, I suppose people except sociopaths treat others well, anywhere, most of the time, not out of an obligation.
THAT is the forced courtesy we're talking about.
Verbal abuse and general surliness isn't the only alternative to the false sincerity and you immediately jumping to the opposite end of the spectrum is frankly just arguing in bad faith. It can just be a neutral interaction, you can require your employees to have have common courtesy and be polite without being completely servile and obsequious.
"That'll be 10.97, cash or card?" "Cash, here you go" "2.18 is your change" "Thanks" "No problem"
Being pleasant to strangers even when you're having a bad day is basic human decency, and of course it's supposed to go both ways. If I'm a customer at a burger shop and I'm having a bad day, I still smile and say thank you when a stranger hands me a burger or holds a door for me in public, not because any boss is forcing me to do it but because this is simply the decent thing to do. Just because I'm having a bad day doesn't mean that I should make that somebody else's problem. Spreading misery around doesn't help me one iota, and only makes things worse for everybody. Having a surly attitude with strangers is basically social vandalism.
This is true outside of commercial contexts, and still true within commercial contexts. You're complaining about the power dynamics of the commercial context, which fine, fair enough, but the basic principle of treating people decently instead of making your problems into their problems applies in all public contexts, including the customer side of those commercial interactions and also when no money is being exchanged at all. And of course some minority of the public won't reciprocate, there are some people who treat service workers like trash and unload their problems on those workers... they're wrong for doing it. Those kind of people existing are the reason businesses have to encode common decency into their rules and policies.
Edit for Stefan's remark: "It's the least the servant class can do - fake joyfulness to avoid saddening their betters, right?"
"Servant class"? What I said is that everybody should be decent to other people. Read my comment again if you didn't catch this the first time. It's supposed to go both ways.
I worry, because my spouse had a rough upbringing and it's taken a lot for her to feel comfortable expressing how she feels in a candid way. I strongly desire that people feel comfortable expressing how they feel without judging themselves as burdensome, inappropriate, needy, selfish, or out of control. This includes in my view, expressing themselves in public.
To be clear, if someone tells a child "Stop glaring, people will think we are bad parents" or "Smile or I'll show you what an actual rough time is like", I consider that to be emotional abuse. It teaches the child to deny their emotions and instead present the emotion the parent wants.
I don't see it as any less abusive when an employer (who holds power) tells an employee "Stop glaring, people won't buy our stuff" or "You need to smile more when talking to customers".
But further from that, and closer to your point, I see it as a problem when society tells people the same. This is a different matter than refraining from violence, yelling, overt aggression, etc. in public (which I would agree is preferable).
Perhaps this is because I believe that most problems originate in society. If a kid is beaten every day, and then blows up and hurts someone, and their neighbors knew, and teachers that knew, etc. Then they've really been failed. But more than that, if teachers in general create a culture where it is hard not to fail individuals, then teachers have failed. And if we've voted in and/or encouraged systems that permit or encourage that culture, than we've all failed. And of course this stuff will always happen with some probability.
But if people are in mass overworked, tired, and frustrated. Then I see that as societies problem, not just their problem. So if they are at the store and they are just standing there staring at the aisle and someone asks if they are okay, and has a short talk about it, that's what society handling it's problem looks like. Because the person that was overworked and the person that asked them if they were okay were both part of the problem. So for me, everyone's problems are everyone's responsibility (up to a point). Like even if it is intensely personal. Let's say someone is pushy in their relationships, and the other person is giving ultimatums. Maybe they are old, maybe they are kids, but society taught them how to manage their relationships. If alcohol is involved then it's society that gave them that too. If binge drinking is a piece of it, then society romanticized it and sold it to them. Yeah, they have their own responsibility, but they didn't do it alone. Even when people get illnesses - society told them they'd live longer; it told them to think long term; it told them to forego gratification for a more promising future; etc.
So to me, the perspective that all of people's emotions are their problem and they should keep it to themselves is a way of society avoiding responsibility for the way it influences the emotions of the people who compose it, and ultimately the consequences of its collective decisions and characterizations.
With respect to boundaries around emotional disclosure, my view also isn't incompatible with people feeling free to tell others they don't want to hear how they feel or asking someone exhibiting aggressiveness to go elsewhere.
Perhaps this can be summarized by saying that I think if people are not happy, that's a symptom of society, and having them smile in public will only succeed in hiding a festering wound. And also that I don't believe being decent is incompatible with authenticity, honesty, or emotional disclosure.
I'm glad to alleviate your concern then: No.
What should be considered verboten is using strangers as your punching bag because you're having a bad day for reasons unrelated to them.
Getting a product to my door cannot possibly be free! That cost is simply being borne somewhere.
And since the cost of products isn't rising (or wasn't until COVID), then those costs are being borne elsewhere, and that very much includes the workers who are seeing lower salaries, longer hours, and worse working conditions.
So I say yes, please, bring on the shipping fees. And if that means my delivery person smiles while dropping my package, and then goes home a wealthier, healthier person, then absolutely I am all for it.
Just where are you from? Sure, I see delivery fees that are "free", which means they're included with the cost of the product. But any time I see a delivery fee tacked on, it's almost always in the double digits, many times up in the 20-30s for a box that is about the size of an Micro ATX computer case.
Not to mention when I have to ship stuff internationally myself and it goes into the triple digits, not even doing UPS which would have costed almost half a grand.
Edit: And I'm just in the US
It's just common decency. Imagine I'm having a bad day and go to shop to get lunch where I meet a worker who's also having a bad day. We could both smile and say hello/thank you and go about the rest of our days, or we could both lay into each other and make our bad day the other guy's problem. If we both choose the first, we both benefit. If we both choose the later, we both come out worse. So which is better?
For me, that is why I am glad automation is decimating the service sector. for the first time in years I was traveling so i decided to go into a fast food place so I could stretch my legs. I walked in, Ordered my meal on a Automated Kiosk, no one even around to talk my order verbally. Then when my order was ready someone called out my number and sat a bag on the counter. I took the bag and that was it, No interaction at all
It was the BEST experience getting food... I almost want to go in more because it had even less interaction than the drive thru.
I'll keep the smile and the clean trucks, thank you. A lot of good manners are "fake" and simply a social convention that people follow even if feeling miserable inside - "Good Morning", "Excuse me", "Thank you" etc.
In a world filled with hostility, disease, death and danger, good manners and social conventions such as cleanliness help signal safety.
Yes. Yay for hypocrisy and forced smiles for the customer-king.
Music? They didn’t say hello to you when giving you your delivery?
Why on earth do you care.
American customer service mentality is supremely fucked up. I actively avoid businesses that more actively force employees to interact with customers in certain artificial ways, because some are even worse than the norm.
Honestly it doesn't bother me all that much, just saying there is a stark difference between them and FedEx/UPS/USPS when coming through my neighborhood.
It’s definitely a regional thing. You’re an asshole if you don’t engage with people in Seattle, for example.
Always weird to hear people calling it “fake” friendliness because nobody here feels that way.
I have no problem with anyone listening to music while they work.
I just don’t want to be forced to listen to their music while they are parked across the street from my house that I’m inside.
Listen to music, but not so loud as to be unaware of your surroundings.
Washing a vehicle is about more than aesthetics. Dirt, salt, asphalt, etc, can damage the vehicle itself. Delivery vans also get a lot of miles on them. It doesn't need to "sparkle", but if you've got a month's worth of dirt and grime on the truck, it's not great either.
I don't need a whole song and dance with transactions either. But silence doesn't work either. Enough words to conduct the transaction and acknowledge it is over.
If they're listening at a volume where it isn't noticed by / bothering other people, then there's no problem. Otherwise, it's noise pollution. Trucks are too loud as it is, we don't need even more noise thrown into the mix. Whether it's people playing music through their phone speakers on a city bus, or a guy reving his unmuffled motorcycle at 4:30 in the morning every day, or somebody blasting heavy bass music through their car or truck speakers when they slowly cruise through through your neighborhood, it's all assholish behavior.
> This is such a weird American fixation.
You appear to be confusing
> They are doing their job like they don't care about doing it well... like the fast food employee that doesn't try to make your experience enjoyable by saying "hi" and maybe "have a nice day"
and
> They didn't talk to me, I'm upset
As applied to the delivery person, it's things like putting the package to the side of the garage door instead of right in front of it (where you'll drive over it if you don't notice it)... and putting it under an obvious overhang if it's raining. The little things, that show you care about doing a good job; they matter.
The point of the clean truck is that it shows the delivery company it willing to lose money to maintain their equipment. It means they are probably also willing to lose money to care for your package better.
It's the same reason Lexus requires their mechanics to wear white lab coats. To show you that they are willing to spend money to take care of your stuff.
Washing them is a "canary in the coal mine". You don't need them sparkling obviously, but they need regular maintenance. And with a fleet under heavy use, that's often measured in weeks, not months.
Here's something anecdotal: as someone from Eastern Europe, I was looking at reviews on Google for a few local dental clinics, to better decide where to sign up for my vaguely-twice-a-year dental hygiene appointment. What I noticed was that most of the places across the board in the center of the capital had around 3 star ratings. I looked into it and while there were generally good reviews of the service quality, almost all of the negative feedback had to deal with the attitude of the reception staff.
People complained about the receptionists not being too interested in small talk, just telling them where to go, urging them to move on, or being terse and presumably uncaring in their responses. Same for cloak room staff. Now there were also complaints which could impact the service itself (professionals not wanting to walk the client through the steps needed for a checkup or whatever, for other procedures), but in general I got the vibe that people expected to be pampered/encouraged more.
And then I noticed that a sizeable amount of the negative feedback came from foreign folks, who might not necessarily be used to some of the cultural and "to the point" interactions that you sometimes get over here. I found that interesting, though it's not like the people here are not nice at all, it's just that you might not always be that way to complete strangers and just be reasonably polite instead. Or maybe most of the staff just didn't care, I can't read minds of course.
So yeah, cultures differ, sometimes quite a bit! I remember going on vacation to a country with a higher population density and getting used to people standing in what I'd assume is my "personal space" without batting an eye took some getting used to, hah.
Far be it from me to say a driver can't listen to music while they are at work.
> the vans usually look like they haven't been washed in a month
Good. Washing work vehicles so that they are always sparkling seems like a waste of resources.
> Reminds me of fast food employee who simply hands your meal out the window, no greeting, no thank you, no smile
This is such a weird American fixation. Here, take my money and hand me my burger and receipt, there's no need for a conversation or a fake smile. You don't care how my day is going, I don't really care about yours. Let's keep this transaction professional and solely focused on this exchange of money for burger.