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Re:The Lose-Lose-Lose-Lose Bill C-18 Outcome: Meta Blocking ... by Transpire7487 on Sunday August 06, 2023 @05:26PM (#37026975)
As a Canadian, I’m glad that Meta is doing this. Google is going to be doing it soon as well from what I’ve heard.

The irony is the government says their intent was to “protect Canadian media by getting big tech to pay their fair share” and it is backfiring spectacularly. Having the opposite effect where there is less traffic going to these media sites, and will have a big impact on their bottom line from their innability to run ads on their own domains and make revenue that way.

Of course, this will just lead to another media bailout making them even more reliant on government subsidy - which the Liberal party will use as a wedge issue come election time because the opposition (which is leading and gaining in the polls right now) will want to defund them. Wether this would be successful as an election issue is yet to be seen, but there’s one thing that the Liberal party is good at is demonizing the opposition and if their gravy train is on the line I’m sure e media corps will gladly indulge him.

It’s absolutely sinister what Justin Trudeau’s government is doing. I used to think they were just stupid but it’s scandal after scandal after scandal with him. At some point you stop giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Re:The Lose-Lose-Lose-Lose Bill C-18 Outcome: Meta Blocking ... by evandale on Sunday August 06, 2023 @06:14PM (#37027446)
How anyone gave Trudeau the benefit of the doubt after:

- [2017] Declaring 2015 to be the last FPTP election and axing it because a non-partisan committee didn't choose the reform system Trudeau wanted

- [2018] Assaulting a reporter in 2000 and brushing it off: “I’m sorry,” the editorial alleged Trudeau to have said. “If I had known you were reporting for a national paper, I never would have been so forward.” and “There’s a lot of uncertainties around this. In terms of my recollection there was no untoward or inappropriate action but she was in a professional context. Who knows where her mind was and I fully respect her ability to experience something differently.”

- [2019] Wearing black/brown face as a 29 year old in the 90s and early 2000s on at least 3 occasions and not being able to admit how many times he's done it because he can't remember

If someone fell for his self proclaimed "feminist" label and didn't realize he's a hypocritical scumbag in 2018 I don't know what he can do to convince that person he's a scumbag today. All the evidence of his wrongdoings is out there in the open.

He hasn't been caught on camera saying women let him grab them by the pussy but that isn't evidence he doesn't think it.

Re:The Lose-Lose-Lose-Lose Bill C-18 Outcome: Meta Blocking ... by paulddraper on Sunday August 06, 2023 @06:52PM (#37027773)
> [2019] in the early 90s and early 2000s

What's the statue of limitations on this stuff?

Re:The Lose-Lose-Lose-Lose Bill C-18 Outcome: Meta Blocking ... by Tao3300 on Sunday August 06, 2023 @06:57PM (#37027824)
In the US he'd have been crucified, so I guess it's more forgiving in Canada.
Re:The Lose-Lose-Lose-Lose Bill C-18 Outcome: Meta Blocking ... by paulddraper on Sunday August 06, 2023 @07:12PM (#37027944)
Not a politician, but Jimmy Kimmel seems to be doing just fine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aPbefau2Zc
Re:The Lose-Lose-Lose-Lose Bill C-18 Outcome: Meta Blocking ... by newsclues on Sunday August 06, 2023 @07:08PM (#37027906)
Dynasty.

W Bush got away with things most people wouldn't have as well (booger sugar) at the time.

Re:The Lose-Lose-Lose-Lose Bill C-18 Outcome: Meta Blocking ... by VHRanger on Sunday August 06, 2023 @06:55PM (#37027800)
Can you give more sources into the 2017 FPTP not happening event?

That was one of the biggest issues I was rooting for, and they claimed "it wouldnt have benefit the system", which I mark as bullshit on the theory [1]

So I was always curious about the inside baseball of why it failed

[1] I did my Msc. thesis on game theory - not on public choice stuff but still I'd consider myself versed in the matter

Re:The Lose-Lose-Lose-Lose Bill C-18 Outcome: Meta Blocking ... by cmrdporcupine on Sunday August 06, 2023 @08:51PM (#37028621)
They (Liberals) only wanted an end to FPTP if they could get ranked ballots,

And the multiparty committee that was struck to look at the issue refused to accept that, and recommended a mixed-member proportional system. Ranked ballots would effectively mean, in the context of Canadian politics, a strong bias towards the Liberals -- because in a Venn Diagram of voter preferences in Canada the Liberals almost always end up in the centre. So ranked ballots would effectively end the NDP and other third/fourth parties as an electoral force, or so NDP & Bloc & Greens analysts etc thought.

It's notable that Australia's ranked ballot system also seems to have narrowed choices there to a two party system and they have no left wing party equivalent to the NDP anymore.

The NDP favours a proportional or mixed-member proportional system and has since its founding in the 60s & the Conservatives don't want any reform at all.

So Trudeau killed the committee, gimped the minister in charge of it, and lied and said "the committee couldn't come to an agreement" -- which really meant: they wouldn't adopt the policy he demanded.

And that was the closing of that very briefly open window.

If Canada ever gets electoral reform federally it will be because the NDP wins power, by some freak accident. Except Singh has basically sunk the party.

Re:The Lose-Lose-Lose-Lose Bill C-18 Outcome: Meta Blocking ... by VHRanger on Monday August 07, 2023 @10:12AM (#37034714)
Thanks for the info!

> It's notable that Australia's ranked ballot system also seems to have narrowed choices there to a two party system and they have no left wing party equivalent to the NDP anymore.

It's been a while since I studied the topic, but that's a bad way to frame it. You have a set of policy ideas, which get aggregated in member constituents (congress in the US, parliament in Canada, etc.) and those get aggregated into parties.

Changing the voting system changes the voting power of policies against each other. Ranked voting for instance diminishes the electability of policies that people *hate* (so a lot of right wing culture war stuff for instance get reduced by ranked choice)

> because in a Venn Diagram of voter preferences in Canada the Liberals almost always end up in the centre

That was a very short term way of thinking on their end (no surprise from politicians tbh). The change in voting system would change what policies the parties are about over the medium-long run.

Even though the name of the parties might remain the same -- the actual discussion and policies being proposed change in response.

> The NDP favours a proportional or mixed-member proportional system

I'd be fine with that. I also like cardinal voting a lot tbh.

> the Conservatives don't want any reform at all.

No surprise there, they're coasting on the hilarious overrepresentation of suburbs and exurbs + FPTP being a broken piece of crap.

> If Canada ever gets electoral reform federally it will be because the NDP wins power, by some freak accident.

Canadian liberals will sink themselves like they did in Quebec IMO.

The sad truth is that it'll get us some wacko culture war right winger for a decade rather than a healthier center-left wing party.

Re:The Lose-Lose-Lose-Lose Bill C-18 Outcome: Meta Blocking ... by cmrdporcupine on Monday August 07, 2023 @04:39PM (#37040646)
Story time: For a brief period 10 years ago the Liberals were sunk down to the point where the NDP was official opposition and leading in the polls heading into the election. Their leader (Tom Mulcair) was a fairly moderate social democrat with amazing parliamentary skills, powerful in both languages, a hardened debater and a former Quebec provincial Liberal cabinet member with a strong base in Quebec (new for the NDP) and polled reasonable well federally. Plus they were running on the sympathy and charisma from their recently well loved but deceased former leader, Jack Layton. And people were pissed at the Liberals for post-Y2K era corruption scandal, after the Liberals had ruled Canada for well over a decade under Chretien. And the prime minister at the time, Stephen Harper, a machiavellian backroom manipulator wearing a bit of a scandal himself, was pretty hated, and had hit his expiry date.

Things looked fantastic for the NDP, and not good for the Liberals and their new young and inexperienced leader, Justin Trudeau, who seemed to only have his name and good looks going for him.

Until the latter half of the campaign, when three things happened: 1) Mulcair took a principled stand during the debate about Islamaphobia (anti-veil laws) in Quebec... while Trudeau waffled. 2) Canadian capitalism got freaked out about the idea of an NDP government... and ... most importantly ... 3) The Liberal pivoted on policy on two popular issues: Marijuana legalization and Electoral Reform... both things they had always been opposed to, and which were NDP policy planks since its founding.

They stole the policy items from the NDP, insisted that this would be the last FPTP election, and in the last few weeks of the election the polls shifted dramatically and the NDP have never recovered.

We did get cannabis legalization, but electoral reform never happened. It never will because any party that has enough power to enact would have too much to lose from actually enacting it.

The Liberals have "died" a couple times in the last couple decades and always re-emerge. Because Canadian capitalism will never ever let the other "left" party -- the NDP -- get elected federally. When it happened provincially in Ontario, Bay Street finance shit their pants and went on a capital strike and no how moderate they attempted to govern, they were railroaded and destroyed. Similar thing in Alberta, down to death threats and harassment, etc.

Re:The Lose-Lose-Lose-Lose Bill C-18 Outcome: Meta Blocking ... by VHRanger on Monday August 07, 2023 @09:49PM (#37043462)
For what it's worth, in general, the more information the voting system provides, the more. I tend to like it.

I prefer IRV ranked choice to FPTP. I prefer proportional if possible. I tend to really like cardinal systems [1].

I think the fact that ranked sometime leads to deadlocked systems is more of an issue of how representative voting is made (rather than the public voting system itself). You talk about mixed representation, which is a good idea for instance.

My main issue is that we don't change the voting system all that much, when it could yield massive societal benefits. I'd much prefer a ranked system to a FPTP system we currently have.

[1] https://electowiki.org/wiki/Cardinal_voting_systems

Re:The Lose-Lose-Lose-Lose Bill C-18 Outcome: Meta Blocking ... by rfrey on Sunday August 06, 2023 @07:53PM (#37028248)
Calling out "blackface" for somebody in the 90's dressing up as Aladdin is a definite tell for somebody's political biases.
Re:The Lose-Lose-Lose-Lose Bill C-18 Outcome: Meta Blocking ... by chelical on Sunday August 06, 2023 @08:40PM (#37028556)
I have no stake in Canadian politics, but this is a very weird hill to die on.

"Justin Trudeau also admitted to wearing blackface makeup to sing the Jamaican folk song "Day O" in high school for a talent show."

Source: https://time.com/5680759/justin-trudeau-brownface-photo/

Re:The Lose-Lose-Lose-Lose Bill C-18 Outcome: Meta Blocking ... by madeofpalk on Sunday August 06, 2023 @08:10PM (#37028356)
What is politics if not "biases" in action? I am biased against politicians because of their beliefs on certain issues. So what?
Re:The Lose-Lose-Lose-Lose Bill C-18 Outcome: Meta Blocking ... by Transpire7487 on Sunday August 06, 2023 @09:05PM (#37028725)
I’ve know since I was 8 years old (at least) that Black/Brown/Any Face is wrong. Trudeau was 30 doing blackface when I was that age. He has no excuse.
Re:The Lose-Lose-Lose-Lose Bill C-18 Outcome: Meta Blocking ... by fouc on Sunday August 06, 2023 @09:42PM (#37028991)
> In 2000, Jimmy Fallon performed in blackface on Saturday Night Live, imitating former cast member Chris Rock.

> Jimmy Kimmel donned black paint over his body and used an exaggerated, accented voice to portray NBA player Karl Malone on The Man Show in 2003.

> In 2007, Sarah Silverman performed in blackface for a skit from The Sarah Silverman Program.

I don't think many people really realized blackface was problematic until sometime after 2007. Twitter started in 2006, so I imagine awareness improved in part due to twitter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface

Re:The Lose-Lose-Lose-Lose Bill C-18 Outcome: Meta Blocking ... by peanuty1 on Thursday August 10, 2023 @08:09PM (#37083422)
Trudeau was in his thirties when he did blackface for the third time.
Re:The Lose-Lose-Lose-Lose Bill C-18 Outcome: Meta Blocking ... by chaostheory on Sunday August 06, 2023 @06:53PM (#37027778)
> Having the opposite effect where there is less traffic going to these media sites, and will have a big impact on their bottom line from their innability to run ads on their own domains and make revenue that way.

I think this happened to France early on. What they did was to force Google to pay no matter what. Optically, it looks like extortion and protectionist laws for incumbents too big to fail.

I’m not sure Canada can go that route though since they probably care about their relationship with the US unlike France.

Re:The Lose-Lose-Lose-Lose Bill C-18 Outcome: Meta Blocking ... by nonethewiser on Monday August 07, 2023 @12:35AM (#37030179)
I can’t find that anywhere. I see google was fined for not compensating publishers. But not that google blocked news or whatever in France and still owed publishers something.
Re:The Lose-Lose-Lose-Lose Bill C-18 Outcome: Meta Blocking ... by xvector on Monday August 07, 2023 @12:37AM (#37030197)
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/13/business/media/google-fra...

After Google decided to block all news, the French government accused them of "not operating in good faith."

Re:The Lose-Lose-Lose-Lose Bill C-18 Outcome: Meta Blocking ... by xvector on Monday August 07, 2023 @12:36AM (#37030188)
I really want to see tech companies pull out of France and watch it collapse technologically overnight because of this. Ridiculous that the government can get away with acting like this.
Re:The Lose-Lose-Lose-Lose Bill C-18 Outcome: Meta Blocking ... by cmrdporcupine on Sunday August 06, 2023 @08:57PM (#37028663)
It's all just consistent with Canadian economic policy since confederation and before. The preference here is for monopolies dating back to the Hudson's Bay Company, etc, and powerful protected interests in large part control the state here ... Both major parties are completely under their control, just with variance in the sectors. The federal Conservatives are dominated and controlled these days by western energy sector interests (and the provincial Ontario ones by real estate development). The federal Liberals by the Westons and Bell and, it seems, the shrinking media sector.

Nationalism is the sugar water they use to sweeten the deal to make it palatable to Canadians. People have a gut reflex to swallow this stuff because they are rightly or wrongly attuned to the threat of dominance from the US.

When Harper was prime minister, it was all about fossil fuel companies, defunding and silencing climate scientists, shoveling money into projects in the west and energy sector, etc. With Trudeau it's just a different pile of bullshit.

I'm sick of the dysfunction. It's a corrupt state, with corrupt, colonial foundations.

Re:The Lose-Lose-Lose-Lose Bill C-18 Outcome: Meta Blocking ... by FredPret on Sunday August 06, 2023 @11:27PM (#37029720)
Try going to an actual corrupt state with colonial foundations. Canada is heaven on earth with zero problems in comparison.
Re:The Lose-Lose-Lose-Lose Bill C-18 Outcome: Meta Blocking ... by SllX on Monday August 07, 2023 @02:14AM (#37030804)
One of the ways less corrupt countries keep it that way is by free societies calling out and addressing that corruption. When we refuse to, that’s when corruption festers, even if it looks like heaven on earth to an outsider, corruption is corruption.
Re:The Lose-Lose-Lose-Lose Bill C-18 Outcome: Meta Blocking ... by chongli on Monday August 07, 2023 @02:57AM (#37031127)
We’re not North Korea or anything like that, but we have a pretty terrible legacy with residential schools and the destruction of indigenous people’s families, languages, and cultures, not to mention land.

Canada is also in the midst of the biggest housing affordability crisis we’ve ever had. We’re in 3rd place in the world behind Luxembourg and Portugal for the most unaffordable housing, relative to income.

The U.S. may have some serious affordability issues in the Bay Area, Seattle, and New York, but large swaths of the rest of the country aren’t so bad. Most Canadians are crowded into a few extremely unaffordable cities.

Re:The Lose-Lose-Lose-Lose Bill C-18 Outcome: Meta Blocking ... by FredPret on Monday August 07, 2023 @11:25AM (#37035757)
I know, and these are real issues.

But sometimes I talk to (born) Canadians - I’m an immigrant here - and they think of these issues as overwhelming, unsolvable crises that fundamentally undermine the viability of Canada as a nation.

And I think this isn’t a good problem-solving mindset, and isn’t the correct perspective either.

Or maybe I totally overinterpret their level of exasperation.

Re:The Lose-Lose-Lose-Lose Bill C-18 Outcome: Meta Blocking ... by chongli on Monday August 07, 2023 @11:38AM (#37035945)
Well, like anything people's mindsets are relative to the situation. Most Canadians cannot possibly imagine what Ukrainians are going through. If we could, we would probably be a lot happier with the situation we have here.

But that doesn't change the fact that Canadian democracy is under a lot of pressure with polarization and influence by wealthy special interests. We would be a lot better off if we had a better electoral system and were able to move toward more Scandinavian-style social systems.

Re:The Lose-Lose-Lose-Lose Bill C-18 Outcome: Meta Blocking ... by FredPret on Monday August 07, 2023 @12:47PM (#37037014)
I take your point. I don't blame them for not knowing how bad it is elsewhere. But what I'm saying is that this lack of perspective leads many Canadians to underestimate the value of the system as it exists today.

First-past-the-post - FPTP - and wealthy interests have been here for a long time now. The system as it exists today works insanely great. This came to pass in spite of FPTP and the wealthy interest (hell, maybe even in part because of them).

Because the problems here are minor, the changes to the system should be mild, not radical. You don't give a complicated mechanism a big kick hoping to take it from 99% to 100% efficiency. You fine-tune it very carefully. Big kicks are for going from 0% to 50%.

Re:The Lose-Lose-Lose-Lose Bill C-18 Outcome: Meta Blocking ... by cmrdporcupine on Monday August 07, 2023 @02:29PM (#37038569)
Those of us born here have seen the decline. And are not happy about it.

I'm 50 next year, and have been politically conscious since I was a teen.. so have seen a half a century of it.

In particular the decimation of the health care system has just been slow and terrible to watch. Destruction of green spaces, sprawl, and difficulty of living in the GTA. Destruction of farmland, garbage on the beaches, overcrowding in almost every tourist or recreational area near Toronto. Nasty political polarization and viciousness. Racism and bigotry on the rise. And worst of all, that housing has become inconceivably expensive for working class people.

I wouldn't call the problems -- especially the trend line of them -- minor.

The expectation for previous generations was improvement of quality of life over generations. Unfortunately, that's no longer the case.

Again, I blame both major political parties. Liberals just happen to be wearing the hat right now federally.

Re:The Lose-Lose-Lose-Lose Bill C-18 Outcome: Meta Blocking ... by FredPret on Monday August 07, 2023 @02:44PM (#37038807)
I can see your point of view. Here's why I think these problems are "minor": there's a very richly-resourced system of capital, highly-developed and educated people, developed systems, and social trust (even if you think trust is declining, it's approximately one million times higher than the world average).

This system can take care of every problem you mention with a couple of tweaks. Now "tweak" doesn't mean it's easy or will work instantly; it might take decades and consume entire political careers. But there's no need for a total re-imagining, or a doom-and-gloom outlook.

Most bad things I've noticed in my time here (GTA + Calgary) can be fixed by cheap housing. This is a matter of political will - there's a ton of space and a ton of capital ready to triple our housing stock in a year if they're allowed to build. Toronto doesn't have to be the Center of the Universe. Even if we insist on putting every tourist and immigrant in this one city, there's so much space around it, it could in principle be one of the biggest on the planet.

I'm not arguing for complacency. I'm saying let's not throw our hands up in the air.

Re:The Lose-Lose-Lose-Lose Bill C-18 Outcome: Meta Blocking ... by zauguin on Monday August 07, 2023 @09:17AM (#37034047)
If all media outlets no longer receive traffic from big tech companies there's actually a decent chance that it will not affect their traffic much. If only some news outlets would be affected the others would profit, but if all are than there is a good chance that people just start accessing news more directly again.