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Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by photonerd on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @06:53PM (#36978965)
It’s more that Meta uses the showing of incomplete & currently not functional hardware/software as a marketing ploy.

Apple has never really done that (at least in the post Jobs return era). They demonstrate what their intention is… then release the device. Zip, except maybe some WWDC stuff in-between.

Which makes sense: Apple is Product Vision & UX focused, Meta (and most other companies) are Product Delivery & User Consumption focused.

Neither is wrong, they’re just aiming at different goals.

Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by namank on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @07:22PM (#36979266)
> Which makes sense: Apple is Product Vision & UX focused, Meta (and most other companies) are Product Delivery & User Consumption focused.

They are not competing goals.

All companies have to show progress.

Apple can afford to show finished products because it has multiple product lines. At any given time, at least one product line is shipping a finished version.

Meta, on the other hand, won't be shipping a finished product for their pitch ("Meta"-verse) anytime soon. So they have to be content with work-in-progress.

Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by photonerd on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @10:20PM (#36980584)
> They are not competing goals.

They are competing focuses however. Obviously they can all be satisfied, but you can’t focus on all of it. Otherwise it becomes “everything is a priority, so nothing is”.

I’ve worked at places that tried that. It’s foolhardy & doomed.

Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by victor106 on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @07:07PM (#36979101)
> Apple is Product Vision & UX focused, Meta (and most other companies) are Product Delivery & User Consumption focused.

Great insight

Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by photonerd on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @07:11PM (#36979161)
The general maxim I always use is “Apple is a Design company.”

They ship hardware & software, but their core product feature for each is the design of it. Both individually and as a whole ecosystem.

It’s actually kind of incredible they’ve done so well at this after Jobs & Ive left. Speaks to their culture.

Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by CharlesW on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @08:12PM (#36979663)
Related quote I like:

”Most people make the mistake of thinking design is what it looks like,” says Steve Jobs, Apple’s C.E.O. ”People think it’s this veneer — that the designers are handed this box and told, ‘Make it look good!’ That’s not what we think design is. It’s not just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works.”

The Guts of a New Machine: https://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/30/magazine/the-guts-of-a-ne...

Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by photonerd on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @10:17PM (#36980558)
Right, exactly. I feel design has really been pigeonholed into “visual design” by many.
Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by goosedragons on Thursday August 03, 2023 @07:03AM (#36984083)
Which is funny because Apple often does design fails with regards to how stuff works. The obvious Magic Mouse 2 charging port, their mices continued insistence that there be only one physical click button so it's literally impossible to right and left click at the same time despite games and other software occasionally needing that, being maybe the only monitor manufacturer in the world to still ship a monitor with a single input, the Mac Mini constantly being plagued by Bluetooth/Wifi issues because of its chassis design etc.
Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by jfim on Thursday August 03, 2023 @08:51AM (#36985191)
Do you have examples of needing to use both mouse buttons at the same time?
Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by bravoetch on Thursday August 03, 2023 @09:39AM (#36985748)
In games it's common. Example would be holding down rmb for one action like aiming, then clicking the lmb to shoot.
Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by goosedragons on Thursday August 03, 2023 @09:43AM (#36985797)
Basically every FPS post-Call of Duty. Right mouse button to aim down the sight, left mouse button to shoot.
Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by CharlesW on Thursday August 03, 2023 @12:32PM (#36988100)
> Which is funny because Apple often does design fails with regards to how stuff works.

Even exquisitely-designed things aren't right for everybody, which is fine. I also personally like old-fashioned clicky 2-button mice like my Logitech M720.

(The one item on your list that isn't a "different strokes for different folks" thing isn't something I've ever experienced with my Mac minis, FWIW.)

Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by goosedragons on Thursday August 03, 2023 @01:42PM (#36989142)
Who are these folks that don't even want the possibility they can use their mouse while charging? And aren't just being Apple apologists.
Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by CharlesW on Thursday August 03, 2023 @02:12PM (#36989561)
A 2-3m charge will get you through the day, but my point was simply that "one size fits all" design doesn't exist.
Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by andsoitis on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @11:24PM (#36980975)
> The general maxim I always use is “Apple is a Design company.”

I would say a “taste” company.

Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by SV_BubbleTime on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @07:04PM (#36979060)
There was that Apple wireless charging pad that never came out because they couldn’t get it to work.
Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by photonerd on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @07:05PM (#36979086)
But that’s sort of what I mean: announced, never any mention again. Just cancelled. No additional “here’s that thing but it’s half built”, just… dropped

And it’s a pretty rare thing to have that mode of failure for them.

Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by chaostheory on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @09:37PM (#36980287)
* * *
Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by giobox on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @07:49PM (#36979491)
There was also the infamous white iPhone 4 debacle, they had almost shipped the next one the following year before anyone got a white handset. A white handset may not sound like a big deal, but people really wanted that thing.

That sticks out as one of the worst delays between announcement and shipping I can recall in Apple's history (~10 months and multiple delays).

> https://venturebeat.com/mobile/apple-explains-white-iphone-d...

Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by photonerd on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @10:22PM (#36980596)
Yeah, that was a technical delay (or rather a quality delay with a technical process). Was a super interesting problem they ran into.

Very fascinating from a material science standpoint

Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by SV_BubbleTime on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @11:13PM (#36980923)
Can you fill me in without search? I somehow missed the whole thing.
Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by simondotau on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @11:51PM (#36981150)
Fill you in about what exactly? And what do you mean by "without search"? There is contemporaneous reporting on the matter available online, it's going to be more useful for you than someone's twelve year old recollections.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2010/06/apple-delays-white-i...

Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by beAbU on Thursday August 03, 2023 @06:13AM (#36983747)
IIRC

The home button and the bezel were made by different manufacturers IIRC, and the two plastics aged/coloured at different rates.

It took them ages to get it such that the button and bezel will colour match perfectly.

Easy to do with black, very difficult with white.

Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by cscurmudgeon on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @06:58PM (#36979006)
> Apple has never really done that (at least in the post Jobs return era).

Apple Maps.

I still remember the hilarity.

https://www.tomshardware.com/picturestory/607-ios-maps-fail....

Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by photonerd on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @07:09PM (#36979134)
When did they use an incomplete, pre release, version of Apple Maps for tech journalism marketing?

They didn’t. So not a counter example.

Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by cscurmudgeon on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @08:00PM (#36979555)
Isn't Apple known for demoing pre release versions of everything on stage?

I think that fairly counts as a "marketing ploy"? Apple is so good at it that folks that folks don't even realize what is happening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVthxoS6H9k

Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by threeseed on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @08:35PM (#36979823)
I wouldn't call that pre-release by the standard definition.

The product is complete and it's just about ramping up production and sending stock to retail stores.

Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by photonerd on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @10:23PM (#36980612)
That’s when they announce it, yes. That’s usually they only time they do that.

Compare with Meta: pretty sure this is the 3rd “sneak peak” cycle on this hardware in the last couple of months.

Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by sgift on Thursday August 03, 2023 @05:23AM (#36983369)
No, it's not. It's different technologies each time that their research lab is working on at the moment.
Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by sangnoir on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @08:17PM (#36979700)
> Apple has never really done that (at least in the post Jobs return era).

The trashcan Mac Pro desktop was heavily promoted to tech journalists before release to try and keep pro users from abandoning Apple. IPads and iPhones were going gangbusters then, and Apple had gone a long time without refreshing the Mac Pro. The common sentiment was Apple no longer cared about professionals that required workstation-level performance. IIRC, this was in the aftermath of the release of a neutered Final Cut Pro which seemed to cater more to prosumers than pros, since it removed key features.

The intention was to signal pros to hang in there, and then the trashcan got released and had perf issues with throttling due to thermal challenges. Good times.

Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by photonerd on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @10:18PM (#36980568)
That’s true, though it was mostly only around the announce cycle part of that phase.

Definitely a stronger push around it for sure tho.

(I still say it was a great design, they just best on the wrong direction of chip/etc tech with it so it rapidly got useless)

Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by dev_tty01 on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @10:30PM (#36980671)
> The trashcan Mac Pro desktop was heavily promoted to tech journalists

They had one meeting where they told journalists they were not going to abandon the pro market space. This was when the trashcan had been out for a long time. Too long in fact.

> The intention was to signal pros to hang in there, and then the trashcan got released

No, the trashcan was released way before that meeting. One of the things discussed in the meeting was limitations of the trash can form factor.

Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by sangnoir on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @10:40PM (#36980742)
> No, the trashcan was released way before that meeting

I'm afraid you're referring to another Mac Pro marketing push that came later (for the cheese grater).

I just looked up the dates & it lines up with my recollection and initial comment. The previous refresh (pre-trashcan) was in 2010. The Final Cut "Pro" X that frustrated pros was released in 2011 and the trashcan itself was finally released in 2013. A lot of loyal video pros left the Apple ecosystem at this time.

Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by starluz on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @11:28PM (#36981003)
Exactly. Meta always shows a preview because as you said their focus is user consumption - their vision is completely dependent on how the public vision forms around their idea. Beyond their core idea I think they observe usage and then figure out how to best exploit that. We’re seeing it now with threads- they’ve basically piloted it and have tons of data to guide their path to profitability. It seems they’re figuring out how to do this with hardware - by giving public previews they can gather all feedback.

Tldr when your goal is to exploit peoples time you are reactive more than innovative, less secrets other than understanding human nature. When the goal like apple is to create the sleekest highest status product, it must be original and based on more objective standards (like aesthetics)

Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by anonymouse008 on Thursday August 03, 2023 @01:51AM (#36981899)
AirPower would like a word
Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by photonerd on Thursday August 03, 2023 @10:29PM (#36994750)
Reread what I wrote: follows the same pattern.
Re:Meta’s Reality Lab Prototype Hardware by langsoul-com on Thursday August 03, 2023 @03:02AM (#36982337)
The difference is Apple can drop 1 video of vr and get 400k sales.

Meta cannot. Basically nobody can. Meta must drum up interest and hype to get people continuing to care about vr.