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Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by Accujack on Saturday July 29, 2023 @06:58PM (#36925689)
Wondering what's happening with the room temperature/ambient pressure superconductor that's had 3x posts here on HN?

It's turning out to be a wild story regardless of the science... which still seems to be valid, although not publicly replicated yet.

I'll see if I can summarize the present situation: A couple of days ago, two papers were posted to arXiv (science publishing repository) describing a room temperature and ambient pressure superconductor created by a Korean team working at an institute in Korea. It looked promising (still does) and many people work on duplicating the results. Such a discovery would be the most important one in physics this century/Nobel prize material.

The papers had some oddities - a cut and paste error, different authors listed between the two, missing some data and neither one was peer reviewed. Nonetheless, the author scientists (some who are well known) stand by their discovery.

Today, how the papers were published with the above issues was discovered. One of the "authors" listed on one of the papers (YH Kwon) is the one who uploaded both papers (apparently without permission from the other authors, and maybe without being an author) to arXiv.

This person apparently is affiliated with one of the corporate sponsors (LG) of the work in Korea, and he came to the team as a condition of funding for the work. When the team decided to start to publish according to the process (they'd been working on this material for a couple of years, doing their scientific due diligence) about four weeks ago, they apparently decided not to give any credit to the industry person because he was just "there" because of funding. The industry person quit the team then, and left the organization.

The remaining team submitted their paper for peer review in a well known journal, where it's working through the process now.

The industry person went on to upload the two papers (one with edited author list) to arXiv, and apparently today gave a speech at an industry conference in Korea taking credit for the work. So, he's not happy with the team and he's apparently trying to take credit.

The rest of the team working on this material stands by their work and is waiting for the proper peer review process to complete on the paper they submitted to the scientific journal to be done, at which point they would (quite properly following the process) publish it.

So here we are, with one rogue scientist doing his best to claim credit for this discovery and bypassing all standard scientific publishing practices, with the non peer reviewed version of the team's paper and an edited/incorrect version of another paper sent out to the world before the original team could publish theirs.

The good news from all this is that all these people (including well known/respected scientists and professors) are behaving not like frauds but as if they've actually discovered what they say they have. This lends credence to the idea that this major discovery in physics and materials science is real and may change the world.

Attempts to replicate the material (called LK-99) are proceeding based on the "unready/leaked" papers and may or may not succeed. If they do not, it's likely when the peer reviewed version comes out that replication by at least one "real" scientific lab will already have been done prior to publication, and the peer reviewed version of the article will have more/more correct information to aid in duplicating the LK-99 material.

Regardless of what happens, this is an amazing story. The link I CCed above is to a Twitter post giving details on the above. There's now a Twitter list being compiled of all the people working on replication and reporting on the drama, see here: https://twitter.com/altryne/status/1685148163223719936

*Edit: Here's the actual list of LK-99 related Twitterers: https://twitter.com/i/lists/1684446795731206144

Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by uejfiweun on Saturday July 29, 2023 @07:43PM (#36926048)
I am following this story closely as well. I'd love for some technological breakthrough to leap us into the future. Unfortunately with this one it seems to be mixed. Someone here on HN posted this thread yesterday by a guy who's actually in Seoul: https://nitter.net/sanxiyn/status/1685094029116297216 And from this account it doesn't exactly look like a professional outfit that made this. But I'm still holding my breath until other labs attempt to replicate.
Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by Accujack on Saturday July 29, 2023 @07:50PM (#36926105)
Yeah, that guy was linked in the Twitter list above.

The papers on arXiv are "crap" because they weren't ready for publication... the actual team's paper has been submitted for peer review to a respected journal and is being looked at/corrected/tested.

What got published was leaked, hence the poor quality work.

Check the twitter list for more info.

Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by uejfiweun on Saturday July 29, 2023 @08:03PM (#36926200)
Ah, I see, sorry for not checking ahead. Unfortunately it seems the link is blocked behind the auth wall and I would rather not make a new social media account, but that's good to hear that it's more legitimate than that thread would suggest, thanks for the info.
Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by jodrellblank on Saturday July 29, 2023 @09:19PM (#36926704)
Change URL to use Nitter to view without logging in: https://nitter.net/i/lists/1684446795731206144
Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by numpad0 on Sunday July 30, 2023 @01:55AM (#36928282)
Not sure how to take that "weren't ready for publication" thing. That kind of wording is not rare in fabrication cases.
Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by carabiner on Sunday July 30, 2023 @02:59AM (#36928594)
Which "respected journal" is it?
Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by lll-o-lll on Saturday July 29, 2023 @09:19PM (#36926701)
There is definitely a mix of evidence from the people side of the equation. Rank amateurism mixed with well credentialed researchers. Check out this vid from EEVBlog highlighting one of the worst “amateur hour” parts: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QHPFphlzwdQ (tldr is that the main website shows a vid waving a magnet in front of a copper disk coated in their new material. The copper plate moves around because of Lenz’s law! Nothing to do with superconducting)

Meanwhile, the very well credentialed HyunTak clearly believes it’s real, but he was parachuted in late in the development.

Personally, I think we will just have to wait the week to see if this is real.

Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by Accujack on Saturday July 29, 2023 @09:46PM (#36926902)
I kinda wonder if that particular vid was posted by YH Kwon... it would have been posted while he was still involved in the group.

It's very obviously not a U-235 disc by the color, unless the LK-99 film changes that somehow? Plus, if it's supposed to be pure U-235, why use that? Weapons grade enriched fissile uranium used in demonstration of properties of a thermally deposited film?

That video makes no sense at all.

Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by pfdietz on Saturday July 29, 2023 @08:46PM (#36926493)
All this drama greatly reduces the likelihood this will turn out well.
Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by yellow_postit on Saturday July 29, 2023 @08:56PM (#36926553)
I was thinking the opposite — all the posturing, fighting for credit, all seem like they truly believe they have something.

Still believe the safe bet is this is spurious.

But it’s some drama that feels a lot more enjoyable and less consequential than most things in the news recently.

Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by TechBro8615 on Saturday July 29, 2023 @09:19PM (#36926699)
Why? It has no impact on the validity of the results, and as others have mentioned, the fact scientists are engaging in drama arguably makes it more likely they believe in the results. The drama is about receiving credit for the work, not rushing fraudulent results.
Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by pfdietz on Saturday July 29, 2023 @09:23PM (#36926728)
It makes it less likely this was the result of careful scientific work. It increases the likelihood there was a screwup somewhere. The more outrageous a result, the more likely that was anyway.
Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by mxwsn on Saturday July 29, 2023 @09:54PM (#36926953)
Nah. Speaking from experience as a scientist, drama increases with the magnitude of impact. This is far from any confirmation that the result is real, but it's quite consistent with the authors believing it's real.
Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by anfilt on Saturday July 29, 2023 @11:09PM (#36927427)
That's my thoughts as well.
Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by ChuckMcM on Saturday July 29, 2023 @09:12PM (#36926658)
The drama does give it kind of a cold fusion vibe. But the motivation of the "industry guy" is pretty text book. If you wanted to scam your way into a Nobel Prize this might be a way to do it right? Still I don't think the Nobel committee would buy it but who knows right?

Going to be really an interesting August and even if it doesn't pan out to be "superconducting" the theory is one that leads to more structural investigations into crystal structures that "might".

Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by pfdietz on Saturday July 29, 2023 @09:17PM (#36926691)
The Nobel Prize committee would do nothing unless this was well confirmed. There is no "scamming them".
Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by treesciencebot on Saturday July 29, 2023 @09:40PM (#36926856)
This reminds me an amazing piece of documentary[1] I've watched a couple months prior about a man who tried to "scam his way onto a Nobel prize". It really goes into showing how the majority of the system is based on trust and reputation and without well skepticism fraudsters can thrive.

[1]: "The man who almost faked his way to a Nobel Prize" -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfDoml-Db64&list=PLAB-wWbHL7...

Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by ChrisMarshallNY on Saturday July 29, 2023 @09:37PM (#36926833)
Might want to ask Rosalind Franklin about that (you’ll need a ouija board).
Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by readthenotes1 on Saturday July 29, 2023 @10:04PM (#36927031)
Or Barak Obama
Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by dredmorbius on Saturday July 29, 2023 @10:06PM (#36927042)
Nobels are not awarded posthumously.
Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by ChrisMarshallNY on Sunday July 30, 2023 @07:11AM (#36929976)
I'm sure that's the only reason.

I have a friend that worked for years at CSH.

Watson is an ... interesting ... chap.

Good at bringing in the money, though.

It's amazing how we can be quite forgiving of people that make money.

Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by dredmorbius on Sunday July 30, 2023 @03:55PM (#36935269)
Rather than skirting around the issue with vague insinuations, how about if you commit to a specific reason why the Nobel Committee would violate its proscription on posthumous awards, in this specific case?
Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by ChrisMarshallNY on Sunday July 30, 2023 @07:44PM (#36937230)
Nah, I'm fine with the vague insinuations.

Have a great day!

Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by CamperBob2 on Saturday July 29, 2023 @10:07PM (#36927054)
There are countless examples of people who clearly deserved to win or share a Nobel but were overlooked by the committee. But can anyone think of a hard-science laureate who arguably should not have won?

Note the "hard science" qualification -- obviously the Peace and Literature prizes have a controversial history, but disregard those for the moment.

Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by lucubratory on Sunday July 30, 2023 @12:21AM (#36927771)
I mean, the most obvious would be António Egas Moniz. His discovery that got him the Nobel for Medicine both didn't work and caused so much preventable illness, injury, and death that it is actually banned in many countries.
Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by maxweylandt on Sunday July 30, 2023 @05:10AM (#36929324)
For those who don't know: lobotomy
Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by dredmorbius on Sunday July 30, 2023 @04:00PM (#36935305)
I can think of a few in the Sveriges Riksbank Prize category.

Most recently, Nordhaus, whose work on which the award was based is an absolute travesty.

As with the Peace Prize, the nominations and selection are strongly political.

Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by ls612 on Sunday July 30, 2023 @05:48PM (#36936360)
What pray tell are your objections to the economic theory behind the DICE models?
Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by dredmorbius on Sunday July 30, 2023 @06:22PM (#36936608)
See Steve Keen, e.g.: <https://evonomics.com/steve-keen-nordhaus-climate-change-eco...>

Bad maths modeling, insipid correlative relation, ignoring of tipping points, etc., etc.

Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by CamperBob2 on Sunday July 30, 2023 @06:39PM (#36936721)
So a 4-degree temperature rise will wipe out 100% of world GDP, using Keen's math? It's hard to see how his modeling is any better than the work he's criticizing.
Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by dredmorbius on Sunday July 30, 2023 @07:41PM (#36937213)
The question was "pray tell are your objections to the economic theory behind the DICE models?" Which Keen's essay addresses.

Addressing the shifted goalposts in your "by Keen's math" follow-up: if you're referring to the "rational function" introduced before the fourth-to-last paragraph, note what the context is:

A model that only applies in conditions where it is not needed, when you don’t have an alternative when it is needed, is worse than useless. ... This can easily be illustrated by replacing Nordhaus’s quadratic with a very similar one that does have tipping points.

And Keen specifically chooses a tipping point of +4°C, based on the paper Nordhaus himself cites and Nordhaus's admission that business as usual (BAU) would lead to a +4°C temperature rise by 2100.

The equation also fits observed data.

The point isn't to demonstrate that this is the correct equation, but to show that on the same basis as Nordhaus used to choose his own modeling function, very different results can be demonstrated.

Which Keen makes more than abundantly clear:

Contrary to Nordhaus’s assertion that caution is needed “when using [his model] for large temperature increases”, his model is unreliable for temperatures that are well within the levels on which he has made pronouncements about what global warming will do to GDP.

Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by dredmorbius on Monday July 31, 2023 @07:01PM (#36950042)
No further response?
Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by CamperBob2 on Wednesday August 02, 2023 @06:22PM (#36978569)
Honestly, I'm not all that interested in it, and am certainly unqualified to suggest improvements to the model. I'd have to go back and read the article more carefully, along with probably a bunch of other material as well, to evaluate it properly. Seems like one of those scenarios where if you torture the data enough it will tell you whatever you want to hear.

It just struck me that both the red and blue traces in the last graph he presents, where he arbitrarily(?) adds another term to the math, are so ridiculous as to not be worth further consideration. If there's a more subtle point, like I said, I'd need to re-read to find it. Either that, or the author needs to bring his lede up front and center. Demonstrating that one bit of math is bad by making up another equally bad one doesn't carry the point as effectively as he was probably hoping it would.

Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by dredmorbius on Thursday August 03, 2023 @06:44PM (#36993103)
Keen does tend to presume competence beyond what his readership may bring to bear, I'll allow that.
Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by adw on Saturday July 29, 2023 @11:28PM (#36927542)
Or Jocelyn Bell Burnell (who is alive; that was a truly outrageous piece of theft.)
Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by astrange on Saturday July 29, 2023 @11:38PM (#36927584)
She makes up for it by getting every other science prize.
Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by 8bitsrule on Sunday July 30, 2023 @01:09AM (#36928026)
Or Henrietta Swan Leavitt, who discovered the Cepheid variables that made Hubble's fame possible (shortly after her death).
Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by dredmorbius on Saturday July 29, 2023 @10:05PM (#36927034)
Some prize categories are more readily scammed than others.

(Though I'm not aware of any poorly-supported hard-science Nobels to date.)

Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by mlyle on Saturday July 29, 2023 @10:05PM (#36927037)
They're not talking about scamming them based on false research; we're talking about making a play to be recognized as an author/inventor when you didn't deserve it.

It's not going to work here, but similar efforts have confused attribution in the past.

Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by hgomersall on Sunday July 30, 2023 @04:30AM (#36929104)
I don't know, it has been happening for years in economics.
Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by bandyaboot on Saturday July 29, 2023 @09:07PM (#36926625)
Obviously the drama isn’t great. One thing that piqued by interest from this story though is that after the initial paper was shoved out the door to arxiv, you had this other guy HyunTak who didn’t think the paper was ready and who is apparently well known. He apparently then thinks it’s worth it to push his own version out presumably so his name is attached to the work. Perhaps it’s good sign that he appears to be that motivated to have is name tied to this? I may be grasping at straws because I want this to be the real deal…
Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by loxias on Saturday July 29, 2023 @09:42PM (#36926873)
I don't care about any of this drama.

I could be wrong but as I understand it the claim is that lanarkite and copper phosphide, when ground together at a 1:1 ratio, sealed under vacuum in a quartz tube, and heated to 925C, become a *room temperature superconductor*.

This claim is incredible and verifiable, so much so that it annoys me to hear any side chatter.

We should know "soon" (c.f. https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/breaking-supercond...)

Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by xeromal on Saturday July 29, 2023 @09:46PM (#36926898)
I don't know anything about science but it sounds like from your comment that the best thing about this claim is that it's not smoke and mirrors. It either works or it doesn't and there are a set of instructions that shows how to do it.
Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by loxias on Saturday July 29, 2023 @10:02PM (#36927011)
Yup.

It either works or it doesn't. Unlike many other claims, this one doesn't require anything rare or super hard to do. The furnace, tubes, materials, could be bought for around $10k.

I'm only a hobbyist scientist. When I saw the pre-print my first thought was "if this works, why the f- haven't we noticed before!? Someone should have done this accidentally freshman year!"

The good news is we shouldn't have to wait long.

The bad news is that we have to wait at all.

Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by hilbertseries on Sunday July 30, 2023 @02:29AM (#36928451)
Very different than the six years it took before the mathematics community found a flaw in Mochizuki‘a abc conjecture proof.
Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by renewiltord on Saturday July 29, 2023 @10:11PM (#36927081)
Haha I have that bias too but CRISPR had insane drama.
Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by evouga on Sunday July 30, 2023 @01:03AM (#36927989)
“Most important one in physics this century”: I’m hoping the room-temperature superconductor pans out, but even if it does, the century is young!

This time in the 20th century, relativity was “obviously” the most important discovery of the century, with the new theory of quantum mechanics right around the corner.

Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by nmfisher on Sunday July 30, 2023 @04:35AM (#36929132)
I've been waiting for someone to put together a summary of the authorship issue, this is great. Thank you!
Re:Room Temperature Superconductor Drama and Hope by amadsen on Sunday July 30, 2023 @07:45AM (#36930186)
Just to clarify: ArXiv is a pre-print server. By definition anything uploaded there has not (yet) undergone peer review. Posting papers there before they're published in a journal (which can take many months) is standard practice, not "bypassing publishing practices" or a "leak" per se. In this case there seems to be something fishy going on, but the fact that the papers were made public in this way is not strange in itself.

I also hear that it's not uncommon for superconductivity groups to intentionally include "errors" in their early drafts to avoid competitors copying their work before they're ready to publish.