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Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by MPSimmons on Monday July 24, 2023 @10:57AM (#36849073)
Elon is really, really good at a couple of things:

- Identifying inefficiencies in an existing technical solution

- Making people do what he wants

The things that Elon is really good at don't necessarily translate to great success in a long-term strategic vision. In a pure engineering discipline, like automotive production or aerospace engineering, they're very useful, but neither one of those things necessarily lends itself toward making a thing that is better or more appealing for the populace at large.

As an example: The Boring Company. The pure engineering problem of "how do I remove mass from the ground and create a tunnel as cheaply as possible" is a great application of Elon's strengths, and a useful problem to work on, because humanity will always need to build tunnels.

Hyperloop, though, is completely f'ing stupid, because regardless of whether an evacuated tube and car system can transport people efficiently or not, almost nobody wants to travel like this, and the entirety of the system is completely inefficient - trains are better in every case and with every metric.

In both TBC and Hyperloop, Elon wanted a thing, and convinced people to do it. It's just that there was no consideration as to whether the thing Elon wanted was useful or not.

This is Twitter. Elon looked at Twitter as a strictly engineering problem. And yes, Twitter was horribly inefficient, as evidenced by the fact that the vast majority of employees were let go and the service mostly continues to function, but my suspicion is that it is riding virtually entirely on H1B employees who are bound to the job else they are forced to leave the country. People will grind themselves to the bone for advancing human spaceflight and (to a lesser extent, maybe) improving alternative energy, but I don't know of any rational person who would do the same for Twitter, even if Elon bills it as the defacto public square.

Not to defend Elon, because I can't, but to be fair, any person reading this, if they had experienced the successes that Elon has in SpaceX and Tesla, fighting and succeeding against all of the naysayers, would have a non-trivial ego. When you combine that with the echo chamber of Elon's fans who treat him like the second coming, and who seem to honestly think that Elon (personally) can fix any problem, is it any wonder that he starts believing some of the bullshit? When he built the sub that led to him calling the rescue diver a pedoguy, and did it because people asked him to, and so many people constantly lauded him with egostroking compliments that he believed he could. And even though he didn't do anything that ended up saving those kids, he was found not guilty of defamation, so he still walked away with a win.

Fast forward 7 years and when he's forced to buy Twitter, he still feels like whatever he does is the right thing, and will do it regardless, and he will convince people under his influence to do what he wants so that he walks away with a win.

So that's a lot of text to say, yes, you're right, it is foolish. He doesn't care, he wants to win, and he'll do anything he can to walk away with a win, regardless of how it impacts anyone else, because ultimately it's not about the people who use the service, it's about Elon feeling good about himself.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by smcl on Monday July 24, 2023 @11:07AM (#36849216)
> As an example: The Boring Company.

Have they pushed the boundaries though? As I understand it TBMs have been a thing for a while and plenty of pretty impressive and enormous tunnels have been built in the alps or under seas like the Channel Tunnel or the tunnel section of the Oresund bridge.

This isn't my area of expertise but all I've heard so far were a few test tunnels and the Las Vegas Loop, which isn't lighting the world on fire. I mean if they make it easier + cheaper to build tunnels then I'm all for it. I've just not yet seen anything that suggests TBC is particularly interesting.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by pclmulqdq on Monday July 24, 2023 @11:25AM (#36849507)
As I understand it, they bought a very small TBM and dug some small tunnels cheaply, and then claimed that the cost is somehow comparable to the cost of big tunnels that have to be dug with big TBMs (which is obviously orders of magnitude more expensive).
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by MPSimmons on Monday July 24, 2023 @04:53PM (#36854056)
The idea behind TBC is fine, which is to figure out how to tunnel as quickly as possible, with the assumption that the current methods are less than fully efficient.

The original TBC at the tunnel across the street from SpaceX was a proof of concept that used essentially off-the-shelf tunneling tech so that the team could learn how the current state of the practice was accomplished, and that they could improve on it.

I don't know if you're familiar with tunnel boring (and if you are, sorry I'm explaining something that you probably know better than I do), but essentially the phases of digging, mucking, and reinforcing are not done concurrently, and I think that was the first things they were trying to do, and then move on from there. But yes, smaller tunnels were part of it.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by pclmulqdq on Monday July 24, 2023 @06:40PM (#36855250)
No, the idea behind TBC was to build a tunnel between Elon Musk's house (at the time) and the SpaceX factory for his private use, to shorten his commute from going around a mountain to going through it. That's why the "proof of concept" is where it is.

Also, they did not do any real innovation, as you seem to be claiming. Combining those steps is 50-year-old technology, at least, and has been done at scale (ie not on tiny tunnels) many times.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by jarfil on Monday July 24, 2023 @05:07PM (#36854207)
Is that TBM small enough to fit on a SpaceX Starship and send it to Mars?

I always thought Boring was a project intended for digging a base on Mars, fitting a whole Tesla in the tunnel would be even more than what's needed to connect some underground habitats.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by cozzyd on Monday July 24, 2023 @03:01PM (#36852797)
their "innovation" is making tunnels only big enough for a tesla instead of a train. So you save on boring cost by trading off throughput/operations cost...
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by brewdad on Monday July 24, 2023 @05:50PM (#36854720)
If you are making a tunnel through a mountain to transport individuals, the cost of the vehicles is immaterial relative to the cost of the tunnel. A tunnel that can carry 700 people an hour is mostly worthless, even if it was cheaper than a tunnel that can carry many trains per hour.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by cozzyd on Monday July 24, 2023 @08:23PM (#36856105)
Indeed. The Las Vegas tunnel is hilariously useless.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by smcl on Tuesday July 25, 2023 @06:16AM (#36860249)
It genuinely seems closer in capacity to some theme park novelty train for kids than any kind of mass transit. It does have RGB gamer lighting though, I suppose
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by Cornbilly on Monday July 24, 2023 @11:28AM (#36849567)
>Identifying inefficiencies in an existing technical solution

I'm not sure that's true considering why he was (or the public story of why he was) pushed out of PayPal.

IIRC: He forced a port/rewrite of their platform to Windows (from Unix) that eventually led to a code freeze of the existing platform to allow the port to "catch up" to the existing platform. At the same time, they were hemorrhaging money due to fraud and they couldn't do anything about it due to the code freeze.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by postmodest on Monday July 24, 2023 @04:40PM (#36853897)
Elon's skills are

1) having money to throw around

2) having big manic swings that make the money seem attractive

Everything else is a hagiography.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by Railander on Tuesday July 25, 2023 @02:35AM (#36858743)
TBF having a quick response time to real-world fraud (as in, not because there is a bug in the code, but because users are lying to each other) is not an issue a developer would normally have to worry about. Seems like he simply got scapegoated on that one.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by Cornbilly on Thursday July 27, 2023 @06:04PM (#36900763)
If I remember correctly, it was an issue with the code and not being able to detect/prevent fraudulent transactions.

I’ll have to go through the book(s) and check out the explanation again.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by valval on Monday July 24, 2023 @11:28AM (#36849577)
That’s an awful lot of speculative text about a person you seem to know next to nothing about.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by nickstinemates on Monday July 24, 2023 @11:57AM (#36850030)
> trains are better in every case and with every metric

Except what people in America actually want to do, which is not ride a train outside of novelty.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by iainmerrick on Monday July 24, 2023 @12:28PM (#36850531)
Build it and they will come.

The trains in the Boston - NYC - DC corridor seem fairly decent and useful, although I’ve only ridden them as a tourist (from Europe).

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by nickstinemates on Monday July 24, 2023 @12:58PM (#36851018)
Why would I choose to be on someone else's schedule when I can be on my own?
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by iainmerrick on Monday July 24, 2023 @01:21PM (#36851334)
You mean why would you ever fly on a commercial airline, for example?
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by nickstinemates on Monday July 24, 2023 @01:24PM (#36851366)
Exactly
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by vkou on Monday July 24, 2023 @01:43PM (#36851642)
I wouldn't call being stuck in forever traffic, and spending a quarter[1] of my income on transportation to be 'living on my own schedule'[2]...

[1] TCO of an average car is ~$6,000-10,000/year of after-tax money, median US after-tax income is sub-$40,000/year.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by sentientslug on Monday July 24, 2023 @03:21PM (#36853006)
If you are spending $10,000 on your car per year you are making an extraordinarily bad financial decision.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by vkou on Monday July 24, 2023 @03:50PM (#36853320)
Parking, toll roads, tabs, gasoline, insurance, interest payments, maintenance, depreciation will all happily run up to that amount for a new car, and to $6,000 for an old car.

The IRS mileage deductible rate is 65 cents/mile, and it's pretty close to operational cost of a vehicle. Parking and tolls and 10,000 miles a year will easily get you to these numbers.

Some call this freedom, but I call this a financial millstone around your neck.

-----

(Not to mention the mountains of public[1] and private money that get spent on automobile infrastructure, parking offsets, etc, etc.)

[1] Most of which comes from the general tax fund...

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by vGPU on Tuesday July 25, 2023 @01:29AM (#36858317)
My car payment alone is almost that much. Then my insurance is also almost that much.

Oh, and about $5,000/yr in gas.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by nsvd on Tuesday July 25, 2023 @07:31AM (#36860772)
Anecdotally - I bought my car for $7,000 cash, about four years ago. I guess that's about $1,500 a year plus gas and maintenance.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by civilitty on Tuesday July 25, 2023 @08:28PM (#36871598)
> My car payment alone is almost that much. Then my insurance is also almost that much.

Are you in Europe or the US?

My insurance at age 20 with an accident under my belt was under $3,000 a year. My 50k mile Corolla cost less than your annual car payments.

> Oh, and about $5,000/yr in gas.

That's $100 or two sedan sized tanks every week at US prices. At 30 MPG that's over 30,000 miles a year.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by vGPU on Wednesday July 26, 2023 @01:28PM (#36881448)
Try having a family.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by 1270018080 on Monday July 24, 2023 @02:31PM (#36852357)
When the true cost of being "on your own schedule" costs tens of thousands more per year.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by valval on Monday July 24, 2023 @05:27PM (#36854446)
What is your time worth to you? If your time is worthless then of course waste it and use public transportation, but for me every hour I spend on unnecessary transportation is $120 in straight income and immeasurable from losing out on time with my family.

Of course this is very situation dependant but under my exact scenario you can probably imagine why I’d spend tens of thousands per year on a car. Of course I don’t, and the number is actually closer to $4k, but even then the time saving makes up for that in like a month.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by 1270018080 on Monday July 24, 2023 @05:33PM (#36854512)
I've always thought the "Set an arbitrary dollar amount to my time to do whatever I want" argument is kind of dumb. No value to glean from it. Regardless with good urban design, public transportation is faster than a car anyway.

And I say tens of thousands because car amortization/maintenance, road maintenance, oil subsidies, environmental cost (gigantic) probably clears 4 figures per year easily.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by theoriginaldog on Tuesday July 25, 2023 @07:37AM (#36860821)
good public transport networks are faster than cars in most cases, plus its much more environmental friendly. The problem is US is catered to the most inefficient modern transport (cars) and falls now for sunk cost fallacy.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by valval on Tuesday July 25, 2023 @05:06PM (#36869554)
“Most cases” is a wildly subjective statement to use here. For my current job, I’d use an hour more for my commute if not for my car. For my previous one, it would be an hour and a half.

I live in the second largest city in the country.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by tech_ken on Monday July 24, 2023 @03:41PM (#36853218)
Because it can get you to a location substantially faster than by car, in a way that doesn't require you to waste all your time and attention driving? The US has bent over backwards to accommodate cars and we're still seeing astronomical traffic during peak hours in all major metro areas. When they're built well, a train (or any public transit) ride can you to and from your place of work in an equal or shorter amount of time, while allowing you the freedom to do whatever you want during the ride itself. For the small hassle of adjusting your schedule by 15 minutes you can regain 1+ hours of your life
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by nickstinemates on Monday July 24, 2023 @06:12PM (#36854955)
It absolutely cannot get you to your location substantially faster, unless you live in a city and are going to a destination inside of the city or to another city that is serviced by the train. I wanted to believe, because I don't inherently love driving and love to configure my computer/laptop/environment such that I can work from any device (thin client-esque) and LOVE the idea of someone else worrying about transportation and me hacking away instead. I'll tell you a story about my personal experience delving into making this work.

In order from me to get from north of the golden gate bridge in the SF Bay Area (in Marin) to say, Cupertino, which I did regularly when I worked for Rancher Labs and MariaDB, I'd have had to take 3 separate modes of public transportation which I would need to weave together in a weird way, and was surprisingly expensive. It would also take 4 hours with appropriate adjustments in variation in route timing. Each way. So 8 hours in commute time alone. I didn't even try. The route would have been Home -> Ferry -> Walk from Ferry Building to King St -> Caltrain -> Cupertino'ish, then bus or walk.

OKOK, maybe I should have to live closer to take advantage of the marvels of modern public transportation...

When I worked at Docker, the Golden Gate transit bus stop was right outside of my house (less than a block.) It was $15 each way. The bus ride took an hour+ and dropped me off 2-6 blocks away, depending on the location of the office at the time. So 1.5 hours each way or 3 hours a day + $30 in fares.

Taking the bus was very limiting. Not only did I have to get to the bus at a specific time in the morning, but I had to leave before a certain time at night. What ended up happening was I would take the 5:45am bus, arriving in office around 7:30am and often take the 4pm or 5pm bus back, on average. This was the time I'd get to the office earlier than everyone, work away for a few hours without anyone there, but also leave earlier than most (but arrive home around the same time)

If there was an event in the evening, a spontaneous outing with co-workers, anything, which would happen after work, the busses were no longer running so I had to take the ferry which would take my across the bridge and ask my lovely wife to come pick me up (in a car) from the ferry terminal.

The ferry was shorter in terms of travel time (30 mins across the bay) but you have to get there 15 mins early to park and get in line to board and there's a variation in the schedule. Factor in potential traffic getting to the ferry terminal, and you're leaving to the Ferry 45 minutes prior to departure (for a 30 minutes ride.) So all told it's not much better, all in, but I am already in a car, driving. So no car savings in this scenario.

Even later (past 10pm, oh no!) I'd then I've to call an Uber, and it was incredibly expensive ($120+) in addition to being inconvenient for the Uber driver to have to drive so far away from their normal operating place.

I've tried to like Public transit. It was not time efficient or cost efficient in any way for me personally to do any of this. It was far too constraining, despite the benefits.

I don't think my situation is all too different from most people living outside of a major city or the suburbs of a major city in the united states. Trains and public transportation is definitely not the answer for me. Getting more transportation infrastructure in my area to make it more efficient is not appealing to me in the slightest.

HOWEVER, because of all of this, I am such a huge proponent of remote work. Remote work eliminates all of this shit, and, if you don't want to have a car or commute or have your car on the road, you don't have to.

I've put substantially less miles on all of my vehicles since 2020 as a result of the pandemic and the shift from remote work and I could not be happier. I started my truck and drove it for the first time this year today. That's amazing.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by tech_ken on Monday July 24, 2023 @06:34PM (#36855197)
That is a big block of text which reports a rather obvious fact: public transit in the US sucks. I fully agree with this fact. I think that this is a fact because of our car fetishism. I think we need to have less car fetishism and more public transit. I think our current car-centric infra is costing us way too much money, and isn't going to scale in the way we want. I agree with the Strong Towns position that most (or at least many) suburbs are going to become insolvent because of their car-enabled low density. I have no opinions in either direction about remote work generally, but personally I enjoy having an office to work in that isn't my home. I hope the rising cost of gasoline isn't negatively impacting your truck-driving experience too adversely.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by theoriginaldog on Tuesday July 25, 2023 @07:34AM (#36860791)
I didnt read all of that, but trains are indoubtedly faster than cars. The reason while thats not necessarily true in US is that train network in the US sucks because the whole infrastructure (and ideology) is leaning heavily towards cars and now you have serious people who claim "why whould I adjust my schedule when I am FREE with my car and its faster" as a counter argument to "we should improve public transport network". Living in Europe with functioning train networks, I can confirm train is much more comfortable than car. Adjusting to a fixed schedule is worth the cost of being much faster and having the time to do something else on the train and be it just relaxation to arrive without exhaustion at the destination.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by nickstinemates on Tuesday July 25, 2023 @11:27AM (#36863717)
A lot of these discussions devolve because of a lack of shared context. I live out in farm country. No trains are coming out here for a plethora of reasons.

Using public transportation - for me - and a lot of America where population density is LOW in such a case is a waste of time for all of the reasons I listed.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by tech_ken on Tuesday July 25, 2023 @01:55PM (#36866526)
Right but the ability of you and many Americans to live in such low-density areas is fully supported by the massive amount of resources directed towards car-centric infrastructure. The problem you refer to- that public transit cannot service low density- is one which creates itself. Moreover, low-density means low tax revenue and infra is EXPENSIVE; more expensive in many cases than the low-density tax base can support. The net result is that revenue to build infra is generated in high-density areas and then spent on low-density ones, which weakens the public transit offerings in high-density areas and encourages more driving, which encourages more low-density living, and the cycle continues. This is not sustainable, and something will give eventually.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by igrekel on Tuesday July 25, 2023 @10:47AM (#36863070)
You point out one of the key things about making public transport work well as an alternative: frequency and reliability . And I don't mean reliability in the sense that it doesn't break down, I mean in the sense that you can rely that the service will be offered, no matter when. Now the funny part is that it's probably a lot easier to make a self driving train, airplane or bus on a controlled, dedicated lane than a self driving car to increase frequency and extend running hours.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by Hoasi on Sunday July 30, 2023 @06:02AM (#36929585)
Long-distance travel by train is a luxury compared to the car. Traveling by train, you can work, eat, read, watch a movie, and socialize.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by Applejinx on Monday July 24, 2023 @04:16PM (#36853623)
I've taken the Vermonter down through NYC and Philadelphia all the way to Baltimore. It's straight up awesome. Most affordable method of luxury travel. Even coach is more or less OK. The train from Boston to the DC area is even better.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by piva00 on Tuesday July 25, 2023 @01:55AM (#36858479)
> Except what people in America actually want to do, which is not ride a train outside of novelty.

It's not like there's a convenient alternative to be chosen, it's a country where for a lot of people the choice is either to have a car or to starve (by proxy, not being able to get to your job). Doesn't sound much like a choice about what Americans want to do.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by amitrip on Monday July 24, 2023 @12:02PM (#36850105)
he's only good at bs'ing, and too much people keep falling for it
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by stormfather on Monday July 24, 2023 @12:04PM (#36850150)
You're not looking at this with the right perspective. Hyperloop, EV's, solar panels, batteries, huge tunnels, reusable rockets. What's the common thread here?

This is obviously all the technology that Elon thinks is necessary to colonize Mars, and in each case he's doing the best he can to develop it on Earth. However its usefulness on Earth is a secondary concern.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by notahacker on Monday July 24, 2023 @12:49PM (#36850875)
Where does Twitter fit into being useful technology with which to colonize Mars?

Think the fact that the engineering problems Musk demonstrated some aptitude for finding solutions to were also vaguely related to his stated aspiration to colonise other planets actually perfectly fits the armchair speculation that Twitter is just an addictive distraction from hard science which he's pursuing out of sheer hubris, not because of any grand vision but because he said he could do better than the people in charge and people liked his posts

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by samr71 on Monday July 24, 2023 @03:36PM (#36853171)
Simply put, Twitter is a tool of immense political influence, and Musk has realized he needs to regime change the US and kill the "Woke mind virus" to ensure his Mars plans happen.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by notahacker on Monday July 24, 2023 @04:04PM (#36853474)
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest his Mars plans would be better served by a few well-placed lobbyists for public-private partnerships with NASA than by spending $44bn on making the platform he previously got to vice-signal on for free less popular...
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by eropple on Thursday July 27, 2023 @08:59AM (#36892743)
It was a tool of political influence before he killed it and the journalists who would cover and amplify political figures left because it is no longer interesting.

But, then again, "woke mind virus"--the cope, it's real.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by fomine3 on Monday July 24, 2023 @08:36PM (#36856210)
Earth-Mars async communication system is needed because it takes some minutes even in light speed. Twitter may work for it? I don't know.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by MPSimmons on Monday July 24, 2023 @04:35PM (#36853842)
I have personally asked Elon if this was his intent with Hyperloop and he said no. I don't know what to say other than that.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by ahahahahah on Tuesday July 25, 2023 @01:03AM (#36858123)
Yeah, he's pretty much the most trustworthy person on the planet and has never lied to serve his own ends. I mean, I guess there's still you that's the weak link in that chain of trust, but otherwise certainly if he said it it must be true.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by mullen on Monday July 24, 2023 @12:11PM (#36850268)
> As an example: The Boring Company.

Are they doing a better job that anyone else? Also, anything they make appears to have to be paired with Telsa's, which for mass transportation, is literally the stupidest idea ever conceived.

The Boring Company an Hyperloop are just Gadgetbahns to try to convince State and local governments to not make public transportation.

Now, if The Boring Company could make tunnels for cheap and then install real trains, then it might be a game changer but until then, it is not.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by hunta2097 on Monday July 24, 2023 @12:39PM (#36850725)
This is the best explanation of Elon's mindset that I have seen.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by Tiktaalik on Monday July 24, 2023 @08:30PM (#36856152)
The Boring Company is a complete laughing stock.