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Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by thefz on Monday July 24, 2023 @07:03AM (#36845887)
It is wrong to conflate economic success with intelligence.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by audunw on Monday July 24, 2023 @07:26AM (#36846112)
Or to think intelligence in one domain transfers to another. There’s a long history of Nobel prize winners having stupid ideas outside the domain where they did the work for which they’re celebrated.

It’s silly to think that Elon isnt incredibly talented and smart in some ways. That doesn’t mean he’s universally talented and smart.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by hourago on Monday July 24, 2023 @07:51AM (#36846379)
> It’s silly to think that Elon isnt incredibly talented and smart in some ways.

EVERYBODY is "incredibly talented and smart in some ways".

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by monkeywork on Monday July 24, 2023 @08:02AM (#36846512)
sadly no they aren't... thus the word "incredibly" -> "to a great degree; extremely or unusually."

Most people are average, many are below average.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by pessimizer on Monday July 24, 2023 @08:21AM (#36846771)
The average person knows orders of magnitude more about many subjects than you do. Average doesn't mean that you're half-good at everything.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by lesuorac on Monday July 24, 2023 @08:43AM (#36847080)
Sure but that's just a singular person out of billions.

The remaining what 4 billion people that are below the average person can easily be worse at everything then the 4 billion above the average person.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by notsound on Monday July 24, 2023 @10:06AM (#36848222)
Could you elaborate on this statement? Approximately how many people do you think fit into this "worse at everything" category?
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by lyu07282 on Monday July 24, 2023 @08:25AM (#36846836)
liberals talking about billionaires always gives me a brain aneurysm, but regardless I'd just like to point out that whatever talent and intelligence Musk possesses in your minds, is very inconsequential in comparison to his families wealth through ownership of an emerald mine in apartheid South Africa.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by tome on Monday July 24, 2023 @08:35AM (#36846976)
Somewhat ironic, since the mine was in Zambia.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by reaperman on Monday July 24, 2023 @10:09AM (#36848271)
This falls under the "curse of dimensionality"[0]. There are so many tasks/patterns/parts of life that humans can develop specialized skills in that most humans (nearly every human?) are exceptional at something. It might be "identifying the best cardboard scraps and arranging it to make a bed on the sidewalk which is optimally comfortable", or "knowing how to make one specific family member smile" but it'll be something.

If you were to enumerate every skill that improves the life of at least one human, there are probably more than 10 billion such skills which require complex analysis, deep experience, and aptitude to execute at a high level. That's enough for everyone to have something they're "best" at.

One of my favorite quotes is: "If you judge a dolphin by its ability to fly, you are the idiot."

If you're speaking of "generalized intelligence", i.e. some metric which collapses the dimensionality to just a few axes, then obviously you start seeing a more classic distribution where many people are "dumber" than you. But you'd still lack many, many life skills necessary to comfortably take over their life were you to magically swap places with them.

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_dimensionality

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by bbarnett on Monday July 24, 2023 @10:19AM (#36848409)
are exceptional at something

Not even remotely true. At best, most humans are good at something. Not exceptional. That's massively rare.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by jcranmer on Monday July 24, 2023 @10:24AM (#36848505)
Given the curse of dimensionality, I actually think most humans could be exceptional at something--just that something might be incredibly specific, like "washing dishes while hopping on one foot and having fifteen people tickle you with feathers."
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by bbarnett on Monday July 24, 2023 @10:31AM (#36848610)
You're just wrapping hope and "everyone's special!" in a ball of fluffy, warm "lookit this!"

I'm sorry, but most people have nothing, even the tiniest exceptional thing, about them. There's no latent kingfu master, hidden in pandas.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by brnaftr361 on Monday July 24, 2023 @11:58AM (#36850043)
Neither of you really have a conclusion. Your modality is overly-reductionist. His is overly broad. In both cases it's impossible to reliably measure. What had ought to reasonably be concluded, then, is that we're entirely ignorant as the the capacities of an individual. From that agnosticism, then, we can build a framework of expectations. And that is entirely elective - if you want to say that nobody is exceptional, you'll seek to reinforce that. If one elects to search in every individual for some special capacity, that's what they'll find. I don't know about you, but between those two framings I'd prefer the latter.

Then there's the objectivist train wherein no expectations are allowed, one must duly profess their ignorance and make baseless measurements in estimation and comment on the distribution of faculties per individual and the degree of resolution to which these measurements are allowed to take place - and it isn't to the degree which any great conclusions can be drawn, I assure you. There is no means by which you can splay out a person's whole and examine them. Time spent with one or two is time spent neglecting some other specimen. Not to mention the interference added by environment. And even in the best of cases that time spent may only be revelatory of some minute fraction of the whole, where again only some shallow conclusions may be drawn and they're only conclusive insofar as the observer has decided they are at some point in the context of time and space within their ever-evolvong system because there's hardly a tape measure suited to the infinite degrees of freedom that exist in the world.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by bbarnett on Monday July 24, 2023 @12:19PM (#36850401)
In both cases it's impossible to reliably measure

Just look into the endless pit of nothingness, the void that is a myriad of vacant, rent-by-the-hour hotel rooms, that is the average person's eyes!

There is nothing there. I think they're all chatgtp clones!

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by datavirtue on Monday July 24, 2023 @11:01AM (#36849130)
Undecided. Society is not doing a good job of teasing talent out of people. The only exceptional thing is that some talent is exposed at all...despite our best efforts to stifle it.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by bbarnett on Monday July 24, 2023 @11:52AM (#36849935)
Exceptional talent shines with the intensity of 37.6 suns. It doesn't need help to be seen, it just is.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by reaperman on Monday July 24, 2023 @03:18PM (#36852981)
“I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops.”

― Stephen Jay Gould, The Panda's Thumb: More Reflections in Natural History

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by bbarnett on Monday July 24, 2023 @10:03PM (#36856949)
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by datavirtue on Tuesday July 25, 2023 @03:13PM (#36867836)
Nonsense. If Julius had not been isolated with his tutors he would be dumb as a rock.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by evilduck on Monday July 24, 2023 @10:44AM (#36848868)
This is trivializing exceptional skill dimensions and exceptional achievements by equating them to the mundane and unremarkable ones.

The curse of dimensionality doesn't imply all skills are equal, only that finding meaningful exceptions in high dimensional data by just data analysis is hard, but we as a society don't find and filter for exceptionality in a data driven way like that, we have a very limited set of dimensions we assign to "success" (financial means being a big one). Someone making a great cardboard bed on the street will never be one of those dimensions.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by bombolo on Monday July 24, 2023 @09:49AM (#36847967)
Well the lobotomy and several nobel price for peace winners prove that nobel prize winners have stupid ideas also within their domain.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by honzabe on Monday July 24, 2023 @11:04AM (#36849177)
I think being smart is more of a state of a person than a property of a person, kind of like health. Genetics plays a role in it (you can be born unhealthy) but so does the environment. I think extreme success in the modern world creates a very unhealthy environment for the state of your smartness.

After all, if I am to believe what Mercier and Sperber are saying in "The Enigma of Reason", reasoning evolved not as a tool to find the truth and make good decisions but as a social tool - to convince others to cooperate with you, to justify your actions in front of the others, to secure your social status. If your cultish following showers you with cheers no matter what you say or do (especially if you label your critics by that label that your followers hate - woke, ideological, racist, censors, or whatever), how can you not lose contact with reality?

That is the simplified version of my explanation for the phenomenon of previously really successful people saying and doing borderline insane stuff. I could name 10 famous people in the last 3 years that IMO fit that pattern.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by nborwankar on Monday July 24, 2023 @12:54PM (#36850942)
“Everyone is ignorant but in different things” Feynman.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by lb4r on Monday July 24, 2023 @09:50AM (#36847971)
Around a decade ago it was considered pretty dumb to spend all your time and money building rockets and electric cars. I sometimes wonder how high the bar is set for 'intelligence.'
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by tsunamifury on Monday July 24, 2023 @10:28AM (#36848550)
Did you know that neither spacex not Tesla were founded by musk?

But I give him credit for scale and gtm. I just think he doesn’t get social software

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by jakubwojciech on Monday July 24, 2023 @10:34AM (#36848679)
So, who founded spacex?
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by nebula8804 on Monday July 24, 2023 @11:09AM (#36849260)
Tesla I get but SpaceX? According it its wikipedia he directly started this company.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by Uzza on Monday July 24, 2023 @11:10AM (#36849276)
Elon Musk is the founder of SpaceX in every meaning of the word.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by EricE on Monday July 24, 2023 @11:19AM (#36849434)
I never understood this obsession with who founded what. How is founding something useful if it doesn't grow? Elon has a *demonstrated* talent for taking good ideas and making them wildly successful. Granted he seems to be off on a very weird tangent with Twitter and it will be interesting to see where it leads, but it would be dumb to just dismiss him as a childless out of control billionaire (seriously?).

There was zero way Twitter could have survived on the path it was going; if not for drastic changes he instituted - mainly in dramatically cutting costs and overhead - they would have been dead anyway. They are no longer bleeding. They have lots of debt, thus they still need to do something new to pay it off, but at least they aren't accruing more debt like they were before.

Twitter was a niche player anyway - it was disproportionately used by techies but was far from having a broad penetration so why not move in a bold, new direction? Its current model is already known to be untenable long term - even before Elon bought them.

The real issue is ads are no longer going to be enough to sustain the tech giants (ads were mostly a scam of bot farmed clicks, over promised results, etc.). I wouldn't worry about Twitter now X - it will survive, whether this crowd feels it's for them or not. What I'm really interesting in seeing is how Google, Facebook and others are going to remain relevant. In the near term I would expect layoffs to accelerate since that's the lowest hanging fruit for these companies, but at some point they are likely going to have to come up with something more substantial and of actual value.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by tsunamifury on Monday July 24, 2023 @12:28PM (#36850548)
okay...
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by lb4r on Monday July 24, 2023 @11:27AM (#36849556)
Did you read what I wrote? When did I ever claim that Tesla or SpaceX were founded/not founded by Musk?
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by throw4206969 on Monday July 24, 2023 @10:51AM (#36848994)
Cad ee
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by permo-w on Monday July 24, 2023 @10:10AM (#36848285)
well there's the alternative theory that this is a deliberate ploy to destroy the largest platform for grassroots public organisation the world has ever seen
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by pyreticRitual on Monday July 24, 2023 @10:33AM (#36848667)
If this happened like a year or two after Arab Spring I’d more receptive to the idea, but a decade later?
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by permo-w on Monday July 24, 2023 @11:27AM (#36849549)
I would imagine unionisation is higher on Elon's list of concerns, although the Saudi backers will likely have that in the back of their minds too
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by tsunamifury on Monday July 24, 2023 @10:13AM (#36848334)
By a billionaire mostly funded by government contracts…
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by thefz on Monday July 24, 2023 @05:10PM (#36854242)
Ahh, the fourth-dimension chess.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by permo-w on Monday July 24, 2023 @05:21PM (#36854366)
if I was as rich as Elon Musk, there'd be plenty of businesses I'd be buying and scuttling, no advanced thinking required
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by cde-v on Monday July 24, 2023 @10:12AM (#36848309)
It is even more wrong to conflate someone’s parents’ economic success with intelligence.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by parineum on Monday July 24, 2023 @10:46AM (#36848914)
Elon Musk is massively more successful than his parents.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by ImPostingOnHN on Monday July 24, 2023 @11:04AM (#36849171)
I think you missed the point of the post you're replying to:

elmu's current wealth is owed in large part, perhaps the most, to wealth he received from his rich, apartheid African jewel mine owning parents: that is the money with which he was able to get the rest of the money

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by parineum on Monday July 24, 2023 @11:10AM (#36849275)
I understand that but and I think you missed the point of my post.

If I had multiplied the advantage provided by my upbringing in the same way that Musk had, I'd be massively wealthy (but not nearly as wealthy). From a relative perspective, Musk is still a massive success.

I haven't come close. I'm ahead in some ways and behind in others.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by ImPostingOnHN on Monday July 24, 2023 @11:23AM (#36849475)
I think you're missing an even greater point: if someone (perhaps, self-admittedly, not you) had been gifted the wealth elmu was, they could have turned it into more wealth the way elmu has

though, don't get down on yourself and where you started vs. where you are: the relationship obviously isn't linear: the richer you are, the easier it becomes to turn 1 dollar into 2 dollars, especially when your family is wealthy, too

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by parineum on Monday July 24, 2023 @11:50AM (#36849908)
> had been gifted the wealth elmu was, they could have turned it into more wealth the way elmu has

I definitely would have not done that. I am not that ambitious and I guarantee I would have been happy to achieve practically nothing while enjoying the comforts of my upbringing.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by ImPostingOnHN on Monday July 24, 2023 @12:15PM (#36850322)
> I definitely would have not done that

I understand and acknowledge that, and tried to account for it in the full sentence, of which you only quoted half. The relevant portion is italicized below:

> if someone (perhaps, self-admittedly, not you) had been gifted the wealth elmu was, they could have turned it into more wealth the way elmu has

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by parineum on Monday July 24, 2023 @12:47PM (#36850848)
Isn't that completely torpedoing your point though? Elon might have had a head start but he still lapped me 16 times on the way to where he is now.

If everyone had the exact same head start he did (or didn't, it seems disputed), we all wouldn't have achieved what he has. Just because he had a head start that we would all have liked to have doesn't mean we all could have accomplished what he has.

It'd be like dismissing an MLB pitcher throwing a perfect game because his parents could afford to send him to private coaches.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by ImPostingOnHN on Monday July 24, 2023 @01:13PM (#36851229)
> Isn't that completely torpedoing your point though?

why would it? You aren't everybody, or anybody else but you, so saying you wouldn't want to do it doesn't really have any affect on the point (especially since we're discussing ability, not ambition)

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by TigeriusKirk on Monday July 24, 2023 @12:20PM (#36850411)
>had been gifted the wealth elmu was

How much wealth was he gifted with? Order of magnitude would be a sufficient response.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by DoesntMatter22 on Monday July 24, 2023 @11:27AM (#36849558)
Is there actual proof he inherited the money?
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by jasfi on Monday July 24, 2023 @11:40AM (#36849749)
He said that there's no proof the mine ever existed. He also said that his parents wealth didn't help him that much. Which is why he also never bothered much about the mine.

I'm going on memory here, but that's what I remember.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by ImPostingOnHN on Wednesday July 26, 2023 @01:39PM (#36881659)
given elmu's long, strong history of dishonest public statements, "he said" should be considered evidence that the opposite is true, if anything
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by DoesntMatter22 on Wednesday July 26, 2023 @03:34PM (#36883610)
He seems to have been incredibly honest thus far including on his own failures.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by marknutter on Monday July 24, 2023 @11:44AM (#36849805)
No, this is an unverified meme that refuses to die because "rich people bad".
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by ROTMetro on Monday July 24, 2023 @12:12PM (#36850279)
Nope. Just some guy who happens to be Elon's dad making these 'claims' but other than that single person's 'claims' nothing. /s
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by nancyhn on Monday July 24, 2023 @10:55AM (#36849043)
It is wrong to think it has nothing to do with intelligence, especially repeated success.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by guerrilla on Monday July 24, 2023 @11:39AM (#36849734)
No it's not. Money is a positive-feedback loop. No intelligence required.
Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by nancyhn on Monday July 24, 2023 @11:44AM (#36849804)
Lottery winners and the like tell a different story, don't they?

And do you think an 80 IQ founder == 120 IQ founder all else being equal?

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by elishah on Monday July 24, 2023 @01:07PM (#36851144)
> And do you think an 80 IQ founder == 120 IQ founder all else being equal?

Musk and Bezos seem to have come to roughly similar outcomes, so evidence suggests yes.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by guerrilla on Monday July 24, 2023 @02:31PM (#36852368)
The people who play lotto's are very uneducated, so it's selection bias. None of them were taught how to manage money because they never had any.

Founders aren't the ones with the money. They're making it for someone else and then being paid for that.

In any case, it's what happens on average that matters, not minuscule exceptions. Money makes money.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by fireant on Tuesday July 25, 2023 @01:48AM (#36858438)
Does that imply that everyone who started with more money than Musk now has even more money than Musk? Or perhaps it implies that you just can't ever get poorer?

I don't think its possible, or fair, to reduce success to a single digestible dimension.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by guerrilla on Tuesday July 25, 2023 @02:18AM (#36858627)
You deny that investment costs money? You deny that investment makes money? The more you make, the more more you invest; the more you invest, the more you make. Exceptions are irrelevant to the norm.

And somone had to come out the winner in a stochastic Market. It just halpened to be Musk. No competence requirer, at all.

Re:Twitter has officially changed its logo to ‘X’ by boringg on Monday July 24, 2023 @11:36AM (#36849683)
Yet humans have done that since the dawn of time and will continue to do it until the end of humanity.