News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by arianvanp on Sunday July 23, 2023 @08:03AM (#36834574)
Yeh you notice it as a customer.

I can't choose a password for my account; instead they assigned me a 6-digit PIN (Not kidding. A PIN).

When I registered my account at a local branch I gave them my dutch phone number. Their website's transaction page wouldn't load due to a JavaScript parsing error over the dutch phone number format. I called customer support and they basically reacted as if water was burning. They would promise to get back to me. 3 weeks later I still couldn't access my online bank account's transaction page. I ended up eventually manually editing the HTML in inspector in order to be able to navigate to the page where I could update my phone number to a German one and I never heard back from support.

I tried opening a depot account for trading stocks. It just says "Internal server error. your account id is incompatible. Please open an additional account with Deutsche Bank". I then tried this; had to go to KYC all over again; but I can't because I can't register two accounts on the 2FA app that is mandatory to have on my phone. Customer support adviced to get a second phone (??).

and I'm just a normal customer. It's impossible to bank with this bank. Every time I have to interact with them it feels like i'm in some weird fever dream.

Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by meibo on Sunday July 23, 2023 @08:20AM (#36834669)
That just sounds like a normal day of interacting with basic German IT infrastructure. It's all the same.
Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by andersa on Sunday July 23, 2023 @09:06AM (#36834950)
My personal favorite is the website for reporting large international transactions, which can only be using during regular working hours on weekdays.
Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by scanny on Sunday July 23, 2023 @02:06PM (#36837968)
What exactly is that? Is it for moving savings from a non-eu country into Germany ?
Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by andersa on Sunday July 23, 2023 @03:20PM (#36838722)
This thingy: https://extranet.bundesbank.de/ams

How they describe it: https://www.bundesbank.de/en/service/reporting-systems/exter...

Any single transaction exceeding 12500€ entering (or leaving) Germany has to be manually reported here. So for example if you're living in Germany and working remotely as a contractor for a US based company you'll probably have to report your income every month.

There are many exceptions that don't need manual reporting though, like if you're buying physical goods from overseas. I guess those are already automatically tracked through other ways.

For fun, I just tried to login at ~9:30 PM local time on a Sunday, and it said:

"Access Denied"

"You cannot access the resource you have requested at this time."

"The resource you have requested is protected by a policy restricting access to specific time periods. Your request has occured outside of those permitted time periods."

Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by pimeys on Sunday July 23, 2023 @03:41PM (#36838965)
For some of us, using a middle company such as Deel might be a good idea. They take some money for that, but you get a real German contract and don't have to care dealing with the local bureaucracy.
Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by tentacleuno on Sunday July 23, 2023 @08:30PM (#36841550)
> This thingy: https://extranet.bundesbank.de/ams

My favourite thing on that website is the script block inside a noscript tag that they actually expect to run. Things like that tend to suggest the developers have absolutely no idea how to code for a web browser.

Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by jarym on Thursday July 27, 2023 @08:25AM (#36892396)
That's one way to implement a feature flag I guess, not the way many sane people would choose.
Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by FirmwareBurner on Sunday July 23, 2023 @10:26AM (#36835589)
Germany, IT superpower by 2030. /s
Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by FreshStart on Tuesday July 25, 2023 @12:16PM (#36864673)
Year of the lynux desktop
Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by lobsterthief on Sunday July 23, 2023 @11:23AM (#36836196)
To be honest, average American IT infrastructure is the same; the larger the business, the worse it seems to be. Large tech companies like Google are outliers.
Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by lopatin on Sunday July 23, 2023 @12:04PM (#36836612)
I bank with Chase and the app is really good. Are there major US banks with crappy apps?
Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by cebert on Sunday July 23, 2023 @02:15PM (#36838063)
PNC Bank’s mobile app and website are pretty bad. The only reason I haven’t switched is due to friction and because I have my mortgage with them. The website won’t work unless I allow 3rd party scripts from Adobe to run. The UX is terrible too.
Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by doubleg72 on Sunday July 23, 2023 @09:34PM (#36842015)
Odd.. I use PNC website and app regularly and my one complaint is how difficult it is to find my account number. No need for third party scripts.
Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by paradox242 on Sunday July 23, 2023 @02:55PM (#36838476)
I was pretty impressed with the internal IT situation working at JPMC. It's not perfect, but reading this about Deutsche Bank I can see what the alternative is and it's rightfully horrifying.
Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by prmph on Sunday July 23, 2023 @08:10PM (#36841422)
Can second this. I'm not even living in the US any longer, and yet I have never had an instance where the Chase website or app failed to provide a wanted service or work as expected. Their I.T, at least from the customer point of view, seems top notch.
Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by drewda on Sunday July 23, 2023 @12:09PM (#36836669)
Last I heard, Google staff use Concur to handle travel... there's no escaping SAP (and similarly frustrating enterprise software) in large corporations, even FAANG ones.
Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by FirmwareBurner on Sunday July 23, 2023 @02:34PM (#36838254)
>Google staff use Concur to handle travel

I mean what else would they use?

Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by dacryn on Sunday July 23, 2023 @04:49PM (#36839684)
Zoho? Airbase? Rydoo?
Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by FirmwareBurner on Sunday July 23, 2023 @05:29PM (#36840038)
Nobody got fired for using Concur
Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by emeril on Sunday July 23, 2023 @07:23PM (#36841058)
maybe so but they took like a month to call me back about an implementation and I ended up using Certify at my company

works okay but the credit card integration is a complete sh*t show

Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by dmvdoug on Sunday July 23, 2023 @06:04PM (#36840348)
Is SAP good at anything aside from locking customers in? I ask this seriously because I am an outsider on this, but I have never heard a single good thing about SAP. NOT ONE.
Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by housemusicfan on Sunday July 23, 2023 @12:14PM (#36836718)
Rather, the large tech companies are some of the worst offenders, but it's coupled with egregious arrogance and a self-held belief that they're better and smarter than everyone else. Google is in an even more unique position as they can bully their way around the internet by breaking and influencing standards at their whims. Ever tried to get support from Google? Go ahead, I'll wait.
Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by jiggawatts on Sunday July 23, 2023 @06:43PM (#36840735)
That’s a conspiracy theory.

Reality is much mundane and boring: the person writing the web app has no vested interest in the app actually providing a good service for customers. His or her boss doesn’t care either.

It’s simple disinterest: the self-interests of the coders are too far removed from the interests of the customers.

If you’re a solo dev working on a startup and every lost customer is money gone from your pocket, you will pay attention to every little detail.

If you’re a cog in a giant soulless machine, you do the bare minimum and go home.

Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by cscurmudgeon on Sunday July 23, 2023 @03:33PM (#36838865)
Have you used Bank of America’s app? It is quite good.
Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by dmvdoug on Sunday July 23, 2023 @06:03PM (#36840338)
Not just business. My dad worked for the FBI in IT for about 15 years after he retired from the military. The stories he can tell….
Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by LaurensBER on Sunday July 23, 2023 @09:10AM (#36834975)
German speaking financial institutions are a special kind of IT hell. Perhaps it's a cultural love for rules in combination with compliance that evolves in a hellish bureaucracy, perhaps it's something in the local beer. We can only speculate but I've never worked in an environment as dysfunctional as the ones I've seen at big German companies.

To give a few examples:

- Running all services under a single Linux account, then requiring vendors to support password encryption in the startup scripts (everyone can access our production passwords!), then proceeding to store the production password in plain text in GIT and Confluence where everyone could read it.

- Everyone (including contractors) had access to the production environment through the testing environments, including unrestricted access to the production database (without requiring as much as a password). This was not deemed nearly as important as the passwords in the point above.

- I received an official warning for disclosing to AWS/GCloud that we did not have CI/CD setup but would be interested in getting one up and running at some point. This was considered to be "sensitive" information.

- Ansible deployments taking 12 hours (on a 6 server environment) because as it turns out, some random "security" settings slowed down SSH, incompetent people not really understanding what they we're doing did the rest.

- Ansible being blocked because someone in the security department read that it only required HTTPs access, turned out that they were reading the documentation for the WebUI.

- Requiring manual deployment of PR's to test environments and manual testing, the "evidence" + logs of doing this was to be documented in a Word document and attached to the PR.

- Automation and DevOps was banned because "The law does not allow us to do this"

- No rsync due to security reasons, great fun when you had to sync 200k small files :)

- PRs were kept around for months, so "senior" developers could estimate the risk. This included fixes that were hotfixed in production so that it was guaranteed to break again at the next 12 hour deployment (thus giving the same developers even more reasons to be even more "cautious" with all future PRs)

- Three different database schema's, three different database technologies, microservices, a React frontend, 50 outsourced developers for an internal CRUD application with 2000 entities, to be used by 10-20 users

- All .exes not on a whitelist were banned, so in order to run your application you just had to rename it to word.exe :)

- At one point external developers were hired, we requested a desktop for them that would allow them to "write" code. They got a locked down VM with notepad installed and nothing else

Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by Ingaz on Sunday July 23, 2023 @09:24AM (#36835078)
I worked for a Swiss firm and never noticed anything strange.

Both founders are German speaking. Good guys.

Although that was a small firm not a giant

Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by arianvanp on Sunday July 23, 2023 @09:31AM (#36835139)
Switzerland is nothing like Germany from my experience.

(I worked for a Swiss company from Germany. That's how I ended up here.)

Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by LaurensBER on Sunday July 23, 2023 @09:47AM (#36835247)
I work for a small Swiss firm at the moment as well, the smaller firms are a lot better especially in Zurich where Google also has a big office (and Meta and Nvidia have smaller offices) so there's lots of cross pollination.

The firm in my post above is very much a Swiss firm though, you've probably heard of them, they're not a bank.

Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by luplex on Sunday July 23, 2023 @09:25AM (#36835089)
Most likely it's a lack of talent, and lack of political will to actually take IT seriously.
Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by FirmwareBurner on Sunday July 23, 2023 @10:29AM (#36835630)
>Most likely it's a lack of talent

Lack of talent is not an issue in Germany. German unis and schools produces great devs. The whole "talent shortage" in Germany is propaganda from companies engaging in wage suppression, and actually a shortage of pay that keeps decent devs away from shit companies.

It's more the lack of good pay to motivate people, but the main issues are the immovable and outdated bureaucracy without any wish to address it, and the heavy top - down approach where top management is clueless and dysfunctional, scaring away the top talent over time and only ensuring that equally clueless yes-men stay.

These large German "ships" are only good at bureaucracy, maintaining the jobs and status quo for those at the top, not innovation or customer satisfaction.

My favorite about German companies is project management done in Excel, and bosses who don't want to use Jira and demand their seniors send them emails explaining the current work status. You can't make this up.

Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by progbits on Sunday July 23, 2023 @11:39AM (#36836352)
Developer hoping for management to use Jira? Now I've seen it all.

Just kidding, nightmarish as it is, beats emails and excel for sure.

Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by intelVISA on Sunday July 23, 2023 @11:00AM (#36835962)
> - PRs were kept around for months, so "senior" developers could estimate the risk. This included fixes that were hotfixed in production so that it was guaranteed to break again at the next 12 hour deployment (thus giving the same developers even more reasons to be even more "cautious" with all future PRs)

Classic strategy :D, those aren't seniors: they're Gods.

Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by monetus on Sunday July 23, 2023 @05:30PM (#36840046)
For some reason, I think forcing the use of a word document in a PR is the funniest part of these anecdotes. Thanks for sharing.
Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by nunez on Sunday July 23, 2023 @06:35PM (#36840655)
> DevOps was banned because "The law does not allow us to do this"

I want that on a shirt lol

Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by rk1079 on Monday July 24, 2023 @09:21AM (#36847576)
I have some of these too.

- technologies had to be evaluated to be allowed on the network. This process took years. Git (as a replacement for subversion) had been in evaluation for over 14 years at the time.

- network authentication mechanisms made building an http/s Webservice internally impossible without the security teams approval which takes months.

- ironically the 'rules' around 'security' were regularly broken and not audited when it was convenient for someone with the clout to make something happen.

Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by lpfnrobin on Monday July 24, 2023 @01:13PM (#36851226)
Achtung baby
Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by ano-ther on Sunday July 23, 2023 @01:58PM (#36837885)
They sent me a very phishing looking email.

From a domain like db-service.com, only text “there is a problem with your account, please call xxx”, with xxx a number that was nowhere to be found on their website.

Turned out to be a legit inquiry from some audit department.

Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by paulddraper on Sunday July 23, 2023 @02:36PM (#36838263)
I would imagine a water fire to be a very interesting phenomenon, no?
Re:Deutsche Bank's “dysfunctional” IT division (2018) by vstollen on Sunday July 23, 2023 @06:45PM (#36840758)
Similar experience with Comdirect. They also have a 6-digit pin.

When I asked support why I have to pay for my depot (even though its free if I have a checking account) they said they signed me up under two separate customer IDs, but they cannot simply consolidate them. I have to open a new depot and transfer my stocks.