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Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by zpeti on Friday July 21, 2023 @02:51AM (#36810766)
> despite it leading nowhere worth visiting

Really? Every major technological (and cultural) advance since the steam engine has been from the US. Atomic bomb, Hollywood, internet, social media, AI, (wokeness?).

Granted, just like on an individual level, success != happiness, Americans are extremely unhappy and messed up IMO on average. But in terms of performance, they are friggin amazing, and have changed the world multiple times for the better.

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by 317070 on Friday July 21, 2023 @04:18AM (#36811370)
I mean, it's obvious that this is what you're being told in the US. But trust me, they tell people in the UK or in France the exact same thing. They cherry pick different examples though, but the story is the same. US/English/French-exceptionalism.

Not in Belgium though. I figure that in Belgium would be too obviously false.

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by glenngillen on Friday July 21, 2023 @04:59AM (#36811615)
I couldn’t believe the narrative of WW2 I “learned” when I visited the War Museum in New Orleans. It’s really quite remarkable how countries can simultaneously tell the truth while having widely differing narratives.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by aziaziazi on Friday July 21, 2023 @05:50AM (#36811940)
Reminds me an Hezbollah war museum in Lebanon. What a surprising history class, keeps me curious of what I war/read that is produce in “my” western country.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourist_Landmark_of_the_Resi...

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by fooblaster on Friday July 21, 2023 @09:28AM (#36813513)
what was incorrect about it?
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by bena on Friday July 21, 2023 @10:05AM (#36813902)
I've been there a couple of times. I wouldn't say it's outright incorrect, but everything is very US-centric.

The place is also massive, you do get a sort of mental fatigue going through, reading, and processing all of the stuff. We were there from opening at 9 and I think we left some time around 2 or 3. And while we made it through all of the building and exhibits, we were definitely spending less time on any one thing towards the end. So if there were any real errors, if they came towards the end of the day, I'd have likely just not been paying any real attention by that time.

There are little NFC cards you get that you can scan on various stations to hear about the person your card represents. There are various soldiers, leaderer, and Bob Hope (not kidding, you get to hear all about his USO tours).

But you hear about everything through the lens of its relationship to America.

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by glenngillen on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @02:58PM (#36960761)
To expand on this US-centricism (and to address the glib reply you got)... if this was your primary source of information for WWII you'd easily come away with the impression the US were the only country fighting the Axis. There's a few exhibits that present the number of US troops/vehicles/ships/etc vs the Axis to try and emphasis the scale of the challenge ahead of them. The contribution of most of the other Allied nations, and the fact they were fighting for years before the US fully entered, is so diminished that it seems irrelevant.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by agurk on Friday July 21, 2023 @05:06AM (#36811659)
Ah, but don't forget the Saxophone was a Belgian invention! Well the inventor was born in the Netherlands, but Belgium didn't exist then, and that territory is now in modern Belgium. And he did invent it after he permanently relocated to Paris. But still, through and through a Belgian invention!
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by jacquesm on Friday July 21, 2023 @08:31AM (#36813033)
You can have the sax, we'll take superconductivity, the microscope, the telescope, realism in painting, the Mercator projection, concurrent programming, and the capacitor ;)
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by peoplefromibiza on Friday July 21, 2023 @07:08AM (#36812398)
> Not in Belgium though

don't forget fentanyl

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by joenot443 on Friday July 21, 2023 @09:19AM (#36813416)
When I think of American inventions, my mind goes to the airplane, the transistor, the telephone, and more recently, GPS.

When I think of French inventions, the stethoscope, braille, and pasteurization are immediately obvious. Hot air balloons too I believe.

I donno, it doesn't seem like much of a competition to me. Hell, I'm a Canadian - we've got the snowmobile and insulin, to reference, not a whole lot else. I don't think it's unreasonable for one to observe that some countries have been more inventive than others.

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by 317070 on Friday July 21, 2023 @06:24PM (#36820771)
The French would claim the enlightenment, the republic, Voltaire, Rousseau, Sartre. Basically how societies around the world are organized and the modern way of giving meaning to life.

You might say those are a different categorie of things, and they would say it is a more important category of things and it therefore demonstrates French exceptionalism. Countries tend to demonstrate their exceptionalism on metrics they are good at.

(btw, the French list of inventions is actually quite long too. Bicycles, cars, airplanes, submarines. In fact, many of the things Americans and English also claim to have invented. Like Americans have the atom bomb, the French have radioactivity. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_French_inventions_an... )

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by RickyS on Friday July 21, 2023 @05:28AM (#36811795)
Quite frankly to list the Atomic bomb, Hollywood and social media among the "advances" is cringe to say the least.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by defrost on Friday July 21, 2023 @05:38AM (#36811853)
To be fair they did leave out highest per capita consumption and CO2 emissions, freedumb cars for everyone at the expense of public transport, efficiency and equitable urban planning, using guns as can openers and childrens toys, etc.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by midoridensha on Friday July 21, 2023 @05:59AM (#36811994)
>freedumb cars for everyone at the expense of public transport, efficiency and equitable urban planning

While America is the poster child for car culture, Europe isn't a panacea either: lots of cities built up post-WWII are car-bound hellscapes too. Lots of other places have bowed to worshiping at the altar of the automobiles too, it's not just the US.

As for equitable urban planning, Europe is going through a huge housing crisis now too.

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by ploum on Friday July 21, 2023 @07:24AM (#36812518)
What’s also funny is that between "Internet" and "social media", there’s a huge layer called "World Wide Web".

That layer (which is now often confused with Internet itself) is an European invention. (A Brit and a Belgian, sitting in an office on the border between France and Switzerland, could not be more european than that).

The point is not to be pro-european, just to say that if you list inventions and remove the components not invented in the US, you will end with a list of inventions from the US.

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by RickyS on Friday July 21, 2023 @08:13AM (#36812910)
I think the point is that defining authorship of intellectual products is a bit like putting authorship on words (even common ones). They are always part of a larger shared discourse. That is not to remove merit from individuals but to acknowledge that merit is not quantitative and could be stretched to fit political motives.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by HelloMcFly on Friday July 21, 2023 @08:43AM (#36813123)
I have to tell you, between those three things one of them is not like the other. But I'll be enjoying Barbie and Oppenheimer this weekend instead of getting into the typical nationalistic pissing contests that Americans usually start, and non-Americans can't help but get into a frenzy debating.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by brmgb on Friday July 21, 2023 @06:09AM (#36812054)
> Atomic bomb

Mostly foreign Jewish scientists who were neither taught nor started their research in the USA and came because of the situation in Europe. Even Oppenheimer had to go do his PhD in Germany.

> Hollywood

Both the camera, the first films and the foundation of filming come from the Lumieres and their company based in France and the films they made around the world.

> internet

Packet switching is from Batman in the UK. HTML was from a British engineer in Switzerland.

Even the rocket you sent to the moon was built by a German.

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by defrost on Friday July 21, 2023 @06:22AM (#36812124)
re Hollywood:

     The Limelight Department was one of the world's first film studios, beginning in 1898, operated by The Salvation Army in Melbourne, Australia.

    The Limelight Department produced evangelistic material for use by the Salvation Army, including lantern slides as early as 1891, as well as private and government contracts.

    In its 19 years of operation, the Limelight Department produced about 300 films of various lengths, making it one of largest film producers of its time.
Limelight spawned offshoot production efforts from former employees using end of life Limehouse equipment, eg: the 1906 feature length classic The Story of the Kelly Gang

    The original cut of this silent film ran for more than an hour with a reel length of about 1,200 metres (4,000 ft), making it the longest narrative film yet seen in the world.
The first proper 'Hollywood' feature length was the 1915 KKK film The Birth of a Nation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limelight_Department

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Story_of_the_Kelly_Gang

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_a_Nation

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by roenxi on Friday July 21, 2023 @07:55AM (#36812780)
Doesn't that reinforce the point though? Europe had all these brilliant, well educated people and didn't manage to rise above shooting each other until the civilisation on the continent was more or less reduced to rubble.

That isn't a result that makes Europe look clever. The major intellectual innovation out of that era was communism. The US approach outperformed Europe's by such a margin that it isn't worth comparing them.

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by zpeti on Friday July 21, 2023 @12:42PM (#36816082)
Wow, can’t believe you’re getting downvoted. This is exactly the point of my original post.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by brmgb on Friday July 21, 2023 @07:14PM (#36821282)
Because you think the US managed to get above shooting each other? Ah, my sweet summer child. Enjoy your mostly empty continent surrounded by oceans and the quirk of history who briefly put you were you are. It’s unlikely to last long.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by eesmith on Saturday July 22, 2023 @02:41PM (#36828626)
You don't think capitalism was a major intellectual innovation?

That came out of Europe, and well after the steam engine.

And, I think you mean "Marxism", not "communism"?

Communism in the West predates capitalism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_communism lists examples like Tommaso Campanella's 1601 work "The City of the Sun" and Morelly's 1755 work "The Code of Nature" as some of the works which predate Smith's 1776 work "The Wealth of Nations".

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by caleb-allen on Friday July 21, 2023 @08:20AM (#36812953)
If film was invented in France, why didn't France become the film hub of the world, then, instead of Los Angeles? If packet switching is from the UK, why didn't the UK build a world wide network instead of DARPA? If HTML was invented by a Brit in Switzerland, why didn't the UK or Switzerland become a hub for the world wide web instead of silicon valley?

You say that the rocket sent to the moon was built by a German, as if that's points against the United States. To many Americans that isn't a bad thing. It is a foundational American value to adopt culture, skill, and ambition from abroad.

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by atq2119 on Friday July 21, 2023 @09:09AM (#36813324)
> If film was invented in France, why didn't France become the film hub of the world, then, instead of Los Angeles?

The US wasn't disrupted by WWII nearly as much as France. The US also has a larger domestic monolingual market, so there's more potential for network effects.

By the way, this is true even today. The EU is a larger unified market than the US, but linguistic divisions are still a significant barrier.

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by tharkun__ on Friday July 21, 2023 @09:13AM (#36813357)
This viewpoint is funny given the full on American individualism thing. "one superhero invented the Atomic bomb. And he was American!"

When pointed out that it wasn't one American but many imported people from around the world then suddenly things shift to "well of course, that's because only the US allows lots of individuals from around the world to work together as a team to do great things".

Which one is it?

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by xeromal on Friday July 21, 2023 @10:43AM (#36814393)
It's not really incongruous because Americans don't really have an origin besides the original natives. What makes us great is our immigrants. We're all immigrants.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by tharkun__ on Friday July 21, 2023 @10:58AM (#36814591)
What original natives? You mean the Asians that migrated down to what's now Canada and the US?

In the end it's a definition of how far back you want to look to define "original natives". And the further back you go the more inexact are the "facts". Do we all come from this one place in Africa in the end? Are we 100% Homo sapiens Or How much Neanderthal is in us? Does it depend on which migration wave our ancestors were part of?

Meaning by extension of your logic if I choose the right cutoff Europe is African actually so the Atomic bomb was invented by an African!

Personally I think that the cutoff should be somewhere around second or third generation immigrants. Specifics can depend on how much integration with existing local culture happens or how much individual silo groups cling to their country of origin. And then there's of course the "eradication of previous inhabitants" that sometimes happened. The majority population of the US has roots in Europe, yes. But US culture" is definitely distinct enough now to stand on its own.

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by ToValueFunfetti on Friday July 21, 2023 @11:35AM (#36815029)
First and second generation immigrants make up ~25% of the American population (roughly even split). Drawing the line such that a quarter of Americans aren't American doesn't seem right to me.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by tharkun__ on Friday July 21, 2023 @02:12PM (#36817350)
That's a fair enough way to think about this from some angle. Specifically I guess the citizenship one which clearly makes people Americans way earlier than my scenario.

It's not as easy as that though on a more philosophical level and from various different angles. E.g. think yourself back to the days those Asian tribes presumably came to America. I read it was three waves. Was the first wave the only true "native Americans" then and the second wave was an immigrant already? That became "native" when and how then? (never mind that there was no such thing as citizenship of a country at that time)

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by xeromal on Friday July 21, 2023 @11:00AM (#36814622)
lol
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by flappyeagle on Friday July 21, 2023 @12:15PM (#36815640)
The American point of view is that anyone who adopts America as their home is American. I don’t care what a piece of paper says. You move here and make your home here, you’re one of us.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by Freedom2 on Friday July 21, 2023 @04:18PM (#36819104)
Does every state share this view?
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by flappyeagle on Saturday July 22, 2023 @09:36AM (#36826103)
Yes every state shares this view. They may not assume you’re American upon meeting you but if you tell someone you are, they will almost certainly accept it.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by brmgb on Friday July 21, 2023 @07:08PM (#36821219)
The American point of view is that people are American when it allows Americans to keep to their narrow minded patriotism and aren’t when it doesn’t suit it.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by flappyeagle on Saturday July 22, 2023 @09:37AM (#36826121)
What’s an example of “aren’t when it doesn’t suit it?”
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by vic-traill on Friday July 21, 2023 @10:58AM (#36814583)
> ... the rocket you sent to the moon was built by a German

Even an oblique reference deserves the Tom Lehrer reference [0] :-)

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjDEsGZLbio

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by peoplefromibiza on Friday July 21, 2023 @07:05AM (#36812372)
> Every major technological (and cultural) advance since the steam engine has been from the US

[citation needed]

It's interesting to me how people who talk of advancements of our civilization in such an absolute manner are often the ones who know less about our civilization.

I would argue that synthetic bovine insulin is much more important than Hollywood or social media, but YMMV.

I would also argue that the telescope, the printing press, the telephone, the cinematograph and the world wide web together had the biggest impact on human culture since the invention of writing and agriculture, they basically boostrapped the modern society as we know it.

I would also argue that steam power is known since the ancient Egypt and that the steam engine is from the 16th century, USA wasn't even a thing back then

> Atomic bomb, Hollywood, internet, social media, AI

accidentally proving that leading nowhere worth visiting

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by reisse on Friday July 21, 2023 @08:40AM (#36813103)
Reinforcing the point, I'd argue the Haber-Bosch process was more important than synthetic insulin.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by MrScruff on Friday July 21, 2023 @07:51AM (#36812753)
The atomic bomb is a good example, a massive endeavour (130,000 people and 2.2 Billion), and some of the initial insights came off the back of the work of the Maud committee in the UK who did some of the early running in this area.

The US is exceptional in many ways and can solve problems no other nation could, of that there is no doubt, but I would agree that the exceptionalism does extend to marketing itself as well.

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by jrtaml on Friday July 21, 2023 @08:22AM (#36812978)
The atomic bomb was built by Jewish scientists from Europe who fled from the Nazis.

Rockets were built by German scientists who were (voluntarily) picked up by the U.S.forces after WW2.

Let's take a look at Sun Microsystems. Bechtolsheim is German, Khosla is from India (if I'm not mistaken).

The Google founders are children of immigrants.

ChatGPT was built by a guy with a Russian name. If Altman takes credit, that's just very American.

Most open source contributions come from Asia, Russia and Europe. Americans commercialize them, take credit and start bullying the original contributors.

I'll give you Hollywood and Bernays. Americans are great at reality distortion.

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by bryanrasmussen on Friday July 21, 2023 @08:25AM (#36813001)
much of Hollywood was made by immigrants of various sorts, which picked up during the 30s when lots of people fled Nazi Germany and settled there and helped make the great movies of the next few decades - case in point https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Wilder
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by bryanrasmussen on Friday July 21, 2023 @08:22AM (#36812980)
I mean you're saying this in a subthread that has mainly focused on Einstein.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by eesmith on Friday July 21, 2023 @08:35AM (#36813061)
Even in the realm of "engines", who invented the four-stoke engine (operating on the Otto cycle)? Who invented the diesel engine?

Who developed the compound steam turbine?

Who developed penicillin?

The "Green Revolution" depends on synthetic nitrogen fertilizers. Who developed the Haber process?

Hint: none of them were from the US.

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by doctor_eval on Friday July 21, 2023 @09:38AM (#36813600)
Let’s not forget fire, the wheel, the printing press - and, of course, the aqueducts.
Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by antihipocrat on Friday July 21, 2023 @09:46AM (#36813685)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tizard_Mission

History is more complex than what we learned in school. Many of the great advances in technology now attributed to the USA were actually transferred as part of a trade deal in return for support in WW2.

Re:Hollywood Movie Aside, Just How Good a Physicist Was Oppe... by zpeti on Friday July 21, 2023 @12:40PM (#36816039)
Replying to my own post:

Funny how everyone is pointing out all these inventions were by immigrants in the US.

And that’s the point. The US takes the best of the world and reaps the rewards of their work. And also makes those people wealthy in the process. Everyone wins except for the countries that lost those genuiuses.

And despite my pro US stance, I’m actually from Eastern Europe, and my country lost a lot of talent to the US.