News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by tinus_hn on Monday July 17, 2023 @05:46PM (#36764524)
Nothing is free, and the EU policy of getting overrun with refugees needs to be paid for. And it’s going to be paid for by the lower and middle class. Ultimately you need enough shoulders to hold up the safety net, and because more and more people get added that only take funds from securities they never paid for, the safety net becomes unsustainable.
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by dougmwne on Monday July 17, 2023 @05:57PM (#36764630)
I’d like to point out that the open door policy to refugees came because Europe was trying to escape the demographic trap and the collapse of the social safety net. The hope was that young refugees would become net positive GDP contributors for decades, an idea borrowed from the US. If that has failed, it’s due to a failure of integration. Europe can actually be quite a racist place and in many ways the US is better at offering big opportunities to immigrants and encouraging them to become big tax contributors. The US’s secret sauce is that the only real cultural purity it has to protect is consumer capitalism.
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by lyu07282 on Monday July 17, 2023 @06:59PM (#36765250)
The US’s secret sauce is that is an empire that can, will and does constantly project its massive military and clandestine power around the world to further its interests at all times, while never having to deal with any of its blowback. And then americans laugh at the EU welcoming refugees you created in the first place, or pretend the EU is socialist while laughing at its massive energy crisis caused by its completely batshit insane liberalized energy market. We are ruled by atlanticist neoliberals you put there in the first place.
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by dougmwne on Monday July 17, 2023 @07:15PM (#36765412)
I’d largely agree with that, though I originally meant the secret sauce that gets better results out of immigrants.

The effects of empire go far beyond military. The monetary dominance serves as a hidden tax on all other currencies as the US enjoys more money creation than other central banks can manage. The US prints and the world gets the inflation consequences. Plus the cultural dominance lets the US reshape the world economy, legal systems and behavior to suit the interests of US companies. And yes, there is massive political interference and an absolute fit when foreign governments don’t bend the knee.

Your big mistake here is to imply some kind of us vs them. Regular Americans are not laughing at you, they are under the same boot heel that you are. This whole system is for the benefit of maybe a few thousand or tens of thousands of incredibly rich and powerful people. They don’t care about the citizenship of of the people they are exploiting. Actually, people in the EU have done a better job fighting back for more comfortable lives for all. Working class Americans are a lost cause.

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by selectodude on Monday July 17, 2023 @07:20PM (#36765457)
Pretty sure Europe's massive energy crisis is an own goal caused by replacing all their energy generation with Russian natgas.
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by actionfromafar on Monday July 17, 2023 @07:53PM (#36765818)
The own goal was buying the gas in the first place!
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by nonethewiser on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @12:06AM (#36767680)
Is that not what he just said? Surely a prime example is Germany shutting down nuclear and and bypassing Ukraine as a Russian natural gas hub woth Nord Stream 2. Whoops.
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by severino on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @03:00AM (#36768838)
That was not the mistake. The mistake was not to put NS2 into operation due to pressure from the US, and now, cutting ties with Russia while you keep shutting down your nuclear.
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by voz_ on Monday July 17, 2023 @07:14PM (#36765401)
This is nonsense. Blaming it on US policy is insanely narrow, and ignores years of colonial interest from almost every European nation.
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by philwelch on Monday July 17, 2023 @07:28PM (#36765548)
> We are ruled by atlanticist neoliberals you put there in the first place.

And who exactly was running continental Europe before that?

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by blibble on Monday July 17, 2023 @07:51PM (#36765792)
pretty certain it's the germans that decided to use the russian gas

meanwhile the US was pretty upset about the idea

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by dougmwne on Monday July 17, 2023 @08:07PM (#36765948)
It was economical to buy the Russian gas delivered by pipeline. The US wanted to sell its more expensive LNG. And it ended up getting its wish after it supported a western aligned Ukraine and while no one wants to claim responsibility for blowing up nordstream, someone definitely blew it up and it helped cement the US as the gas supplier of Europe.

I think the message is clear that it’s best not to upset the US.

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by blibble on Monday July 17, 2023 @08:15PM (#36766020)
> It was economical to buy the Russian gas delivered by pipeline.

see I can understand this logic pre 2014, but post 2014 (i.e. Crimea), absolutely not

the euros paid to putin were used to re-arm and those weapons are now being used in Ukraine

and if he wins then Eastern Europe is next in line

but yes germans saved 2% on their gas bills for 10 years

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by FpUser on Monday July 17, 2023 @09:04PM (#36766422)
>"and if he wins then Eastern Europe is next in line"

I doubt Putin is suicidal. Eastern Europe is in NATO, hence protected.

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by blibble on Monday July 17, 2023 @09:11PM (#36766495)
it'll never be so obvious that NATO can declare it as an attack

you've seen the playbook in ukraine twice now

there will be an russian speaking minority in estonia/lithuania/... that will that rebel against anti russian oppression, guerilla warfare against the authorities, then they'll hold an rigged referendum, then a decade later the Russian government will formally annex what they've effectively controlled for years

he won't send tanks across the border that will trigger Article 5

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by FpUser on Monday July 17, 2023 @10:09PM (#36766922)
>"there will be an russian speaking minority in estonia/lithuania/... that will that rebel against anti russian oppression"

Well don't oppress them. Anyways in Ukraine Russian speakers are hardly the minority. In Baltic states however Russian speakers are true minority and do not matter much. They can't hold a referendum. Your logic does not make any sense to me.

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by blibble on Monday July 17, 2023 @10:21PM (#36767020)
they're not oppressed, that's the point
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by lisasays on Monday July 17, 2023 @11:00PM (#36767288)
In Ukraine Russian speakers are hardly the minority.

What's this supposed to mean?

Certainly it's not referring to the portion of native speakers.

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by FpUser on Monday July 17, 2023 @11:52PM (#36767609)
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by severino on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @03:02AM (#36768859)
> that will that rebel against anti russian oppression

So you mean it's OK to oppress people just because they are Russian, or speak Russian? And the bad guys are those against oppression?

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by sharikous on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @05:47AM (#36769969)
Eh but Wagner is not the Russian army, right? They are an "independent contractor" after all. And Russian speaking minorities may "suddenly" decide to rebel. And NATO may be not so eager to activate article 5 since they are not suicidal too.

Long story short I am not sure NATO Eastern Europe is protected 100%. Luckily for now Putin cannot afford another front but there is already some saber rattling between Belarus and Poland and Wagner is in Belarus.

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by nonethewiser on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @12:08AM (#36767694)
It was economical for Germany to partner with Russia at the expense of Ukraine.
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by SubjectToChange on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @03:00AM (#36768844)
Do you really believe that the USA would commit an act of war against Russia to… sell Europe natural gas?
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by dougmwne on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @03:58AM (#36769246)
The US supplies weapons, training, intelligence and logistics to just one side in an active war. Clearly “act of war” is a line they’ve been dancing on for awhile.

And I don’t know who did the sabotage, and I don’t know if it was on the suggestion of the US, but the winner certainly seems to be the US which has very effectively pulled Germany away from Russia and Russian energy markets.

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by boffinAudio on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @04:52AM (#36769630)
The US has been trying to sabotage German energy markets for a while:

https://gpil.jura.uni-bonn.de/2021/01/germany-rejects-u-s-sa...

It finally got its wish with the destruction of the NS2 ..

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by hirvi74 on Monday July 17, 2023 @11:34PM (#36767501)
> We are ruled by atlanticist neoliberals you put there in the first place

You all created us. So, you all are technically responsible for your own problems. ;)

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by sangnoir on Monday July 17, 2023 @07:17PM (#36765425)
> I’d like to point out that the open door policy to refugees came because Europe was trying to escape the demographic trap and the collapse of the social safety net.

Also, the US was bombing a couple of Middle Eastern countries then: creating the said refugees who could reach Europe on foot and/or boat, but not the American mainland .

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by dougmwne on Monday July 17, 2023 @07:32PM (#36765590)
It’s true, but as cold hearted as it is, they didn’t have to let them in. Poland sure decided to pick and choose. The Greeks are not having it either.

One day there will be a massive wave of climate refugees rushing out of the uninhabitable zone and there will be US soldiers in the border guard towers with flamethrowers. The US will welcome immigrants when it suits them and roast them when it doesn’t.

As I am in Berlin right now I’ll remind us it wouldn’t be the first time people on top of a wall had kill on sight orders.

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by carlosjobim on Monday July 17, 2023 @08:21PM (#36766085)
> One day there will be a massive wave of climate refugees rushing out of the uninhabitable zone

Are you talking about Canada?

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by dougmwne on Monday July 17, 2023 @08:30PM (#36766172)
Sorry to break it to you, but by the end of the century Canada will be the bread basket of America. Go quietly and pretend like it was your idea and you may even get statehood.
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by gruez on Monday July 17, 2023 @08:35PM (#36766209)
Are you saying canada will be uninhabitable, or people will be going to canada?
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by refulgentis on Monday July 17, 2023 @09:11PM (#36766490)
No, the US was not causing massive Syrian refugee flows to Europe by bombing Syria.
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by nonethewiser on Monday July 17, 2023 @11:53PM (#36767615)
Which countries? I imagine they were already churning out refugees. Syria, for example.
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by bamfly on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @02:18AM (#36768554)
US intervention turned Syria from a relatively quick civil war (to be won by Assad and his Russian pals) to a conflict of interminable duration. Elements of the fight against Assad were connected to groups arising from the chaos in Iraq, in the wake of the US invasion (remember ISIS?) complicating matters and surely leading to even more suffering for non-combatants. IIRC the bulk of the refugee waves came after the initial clashes, when US aid and air cover let the resistance dig in for the long-term rather than getting quickly crushed by government forces and their allies. Somewhat later, the ISIS mess made it all even worse.

Whether all this was in some sense worth it for mysterious realpolitik greater-good reasons—I dunno. Looks pretty bad on its own, anyway. Not enough help to win—but just enough to keep the fight going forever. Doesn't make much sense to me unless the point was to accomplish exactly that (to disrupt Russian and/or Iranian interests in the area without pushing too hard? To keep Syria too distracted to mess with Israel? Destabilize Syria so it can't interfere with Iraq's fledgeling state? I have no idea what the real motivation is or was, but it sure as hell doesn't seem to have been "help the Syrian people"—if it was, we've screwed that up pretty badly)

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by misja111 on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @02:31AM (#36768652)
US didn't want to be involved in the Syrian conflict at all in the beginning. It were its European allies, in particular France, that were pushing to intervene and fight the Assad regime.

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/why-the-united-states-has...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-crisis-un-idUKBRE87...

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by bamfly on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @02:34AM (#36768671)
Interesting, thanks for the context.
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by misja111 on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @02:26AM (#36768611)
This is just plain wrong. The millions of refugees came from Syria. The US was hardly bombing Syria at all, it just bombed Libya. Actually it was mostly EU countries, in particular France, that pushed for fighting the Assad regime at the time. The Obama government didn't even want to be involved at first.
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by sangnoir on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @03:09AM (#36768894)
> The US was hardly bombing Syria at all, it just bombed Libya.

I was mostly thinking of Syria and Daesh, and had forgotten about Libya. A non-insignificant chunk of refugees headed to Europe transit through Libya - which didn't use to be the case before Gaddafi was deposed.

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by networkchad on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @03:50AM (#36769171)
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by modo_mario on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @04:03AM (#36769284)
I think you got things backwards. France wanted to bomb libya (as well as the UK) whils the US was a reluctant partner.

The US went for Syria/Assad leading the intervention and whilst France picked up it's involvement against ISIL & the like particularly after the Paris attacks it wasn't as big on it as Libya.

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by misja111 on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @05:32AM (#36769879)
France was also eager to bomb Libya, that's true. But the US really didn't want to intervene in Syria at first.

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/why-the-united-states-has...

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by rafaelero on Monday July 17, 2023 @07:21PM (#36765472)
In a developed country, low-skilled labor will be a net negative even if well integrated. That's the definition of being below the average of the recipient country.
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by xxpor on Monday July 17, 2023 @07:26PM (#36765523)
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by rafaelero on Monday July 17, 2023 @07:37PM (#36765646)
The evidence is math. Even if you have a flat rate and everyone in the population is equally benefitted with social services, there are 50% of people who are contributing less than they take and 50% who are contributing more than they take. That looks even worse when we relax the flax rate assumption (most countries have progressive taxation) and the amount of social benefits a given segment receives (poor people tend to cost more). The only way to counteract that is if those low-skilled workers can generate more wealth (in the form of GDP and taxation) than they are consuming from public service, which of course will depend from country to country (the ones that have a higher social welfare will require higher output to be produced by the low-skilled immigrant to make the costs neutral).
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by jakewins on Monday July 17, 2023 @07:57PM (#36765854)
Isn’t this assuming people stay in fixed “compartments” over their lifetime?

My experience with social safety nets in EU is that they have been there when I’ve needed them - when I was a poor student, when I was sick — and now that I’m in a different life phase I pay that forward

Your math makes sense at any given instant, but who is on what side changes if you view it over time

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by rafaelero on Monday July 17, 2023 @08:06PM (#36765936)
Take a look at net contribution to Danish welfare state over time. https://www.economist.com/sites/default/files/images/print-e...
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by nonethewiser on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @12:00AM (#36767644)
Danish are the highest contributors with Western immigrants close behind. Non western immigrants contribute a lot less and MENAPT (middle east, north africa, pakistan, and turkey) are doing even worse.
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by lukas099 on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @09:56AM (#36772302)
The immigrants will have children that will be better-acclimated and contribute more, no?
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by rafaelero on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @11:20AM (#36773926)
The graph includes the descendents.
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by lukas099 on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @01:56PM (#36776662)
I see, thanks.
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by lukas099 on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @01:46PM (#36790342)
Approximately how many generations of descendants are included? Is it possible that intaking non-western immigrants is an investment that will pay off in the future, but the payoff has not materialized yet?
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by landemva on Monday July 17, 2023 @08:13PM (#36766000)
> 50% of people who are contributing less than they take

Do you have a citation for that broad brush number for what they take?

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by rafaelero on Monday July 17, 2023 @08:33PM (#36766185)
I was modeling a ficticious society with a normally distributed income, flax taxation and equally distributed social benefits. In reality it's more skewed and fewer than 50% are net positive.
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by nonethewiser on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @12:03AM (#36767658)
I’m curious - what would a citation give you? An authority you may trust or distrust? Do you not understand the dynamic he outlined?
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by lostmsu on Monday July 17, 2023 @08:35PM (#36766206)
> The evidence is math.

If there are 101 people, 100 making 101 sandwich per year and 1 doing nothing, and everyone needs 100 sandwiches per year, 99% are contributing more than they take. This works the other way too.

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by rafaelero on Monday July 17, 2023 @08:38PM (#36766229)
You are talking about economic output, and I agree it is very difficult for someone to be a net negative in this metric (someone would have to contribute almost nothing to the economy and take what they need to survive as donation). We are talking about a tax system with contributions and expenses. In this system, less than 50% are net contributors.
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by lostmsu on Monday July 17, 2023 @09:31PM (#36766632)
What are you talking about? The above system is 1% tax on everyone who makes something, and all expenses go to hit minimum 100 sandwiches for everyone. Clearly 99% are net contributors.
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by TheCoelacanth on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @11:07AM (#36773664)
> everyone in the population is equally benefitted with social services

Already your argument is falling apart. Government spending goes disproportionately to children and the elderly who don't work. Workers, even low skill ones, are almost always a net positive.

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by jhugo on Monday July 17, 2023 @07:35PM (#36765622)
Is there data on the average skill level of refugees?
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by dougmwne on Monday July 17, 2023 @07:25PM (#36765518)
In the US, the immigrant labor does not stay low skilled for long or was never low skilled in the first place. See: tech company CEOs
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by csmiller on Monday July 17, 2023 @09:43PM (#36766706)
I assume they were referring to seasonal farm worker types, who don’t seem to experience as much social mobility.
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by bipop5000 on Monday July 17, 2023 @08:53PM (#36766341)
are you assuming that all refugees entering the country are the bottom of the barrel?
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by rafaelero on Monday July 17, 2023 @08:55PM (#36766353)
I didn't say refugee. I said low-skilled labor.
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by nonethewiser on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @12:04AM (#36767662)
Refugees tend to be low skill.
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by crote on Monday July 17, 2023 @09:15PM (#36766524)
High-skilled labor often depends on low-skilled labor, though. If you want a chip factory, you'll first have to find someone to pour the concrete. There is no reason that being "below the average" has to imply being a net negative, both high-skilled and low-skilled labor are essential for a well-functioning economy.
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by carlosjobim on Monday July 17, 2023 @08:19PM (#36766062)
That's just untrue. Open door for refugees has always been motivated by humanitarian reasons by European rulers. Otherwise other immigrants would do just as fine or better.
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by onetimeusename on Monday July 17, 2023 @08:19PM (#36766076)
> due to a failure of integration.

whose failure? Why are Europeans the default racists? The US is not even integrated and is going through large scale migration right now that has never happened before so the success of US integration is still too early to say. What does integration look like because the US has ethnic enclaves, everyone knows that.

It's absolutely right that the US promoted demographic change to Europe who followed foot but the migrants lack the skills who arrive and I don't think this even solves the problem. It may exacerbate the demographic trap for various reasons.

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by fakedang on Monday July 17, 2023 @10:51PM (#36767230)
European people aren't called racists as much as they are called deluded and self-righteous. The European govts were so confident of being in the right that they failed to counter the social changes happening in their own backyards, while lecturing other countries on their policies.

And by Europeans here, I mean the EU, the govt of some individual WE countries and a small minority of vocal activist personalities who haven't got any other purpose in life. Most run of the mill folks I meet are either strongly opposed or negatively indifferent to migrants, in direct opposition of their govts.

Most countries could have just said no to migrants, like Poland, Greece and Switzerland did. But they all wanted to play the self-righteous card.

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by modo_mario on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @04:22AM (#36769420)
I think you forget that many of the southern countries that did say no to immigrants (recognizing that most of those did not intend to stay in their countries but they ended up stuck with them when faced with more closed borders) pushed for a redistribution scheme. In fact when italy didn't have french backing for this they did what a few balkan countries had been doing and simply bussed migrants to the border which caused a quick reversal of stance.

Additionally many blame the likes of Merkel for the self righteous stance unaware of the fact that she (and her Dutch partners and such) had the greatest effect on building down inflow with an agreement she started brokering with turkey well before her famous comment. On the other hand fences and hard rhetoric in Hungary or the like did not visibly affect the numbers of incoming refugees.

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by fakedang on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @10:36AM (#36773082)
The redistribution scheme was pushed by the Northern countries though. The southern countries would oppose the immigration, and redistribution was sort of the compromise the Northern countries wanted to keep the inflow of cheap labor.

The Turkish agreement is meaningless - if all of Europe had been vehemently opposed to importing immigrants, immigration would have stopped at the Turkish-Syrian border. Immigration did not happen because of the Syrian war - it was a constant trend. What opened the spigot was the fall of hard regimes in North Africa such as Libya, Tunisia and North Africa (something EU biggies like France, Netherlands, Germany supported because "dictators bad!"), which led to their own borders becoming much weakened.

Third, no immigrant wants to settle in Hungary because they're immigrants, not refugees. And as immigrants, they're simply choosing the country with the best welfare. There was even an article in 2016ish I read (I'm sure there are loads) where an interviewee said that he was taking his family from Greece all the way to Sweden because the welfare benefits were better.

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by gruez on Monday July 17, 2023 @08:38PM (#36766227)
>I’d like to point out that the open door policy to refugees came because Europe was trying to escape the demographic trap and the collapse of the social safety net.

This sounds like post hoc justification. If you want immigrants, wouldn't you want to pick the best and brightest, rather than whoever washes up on your shore?

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by 8note on Monday July 17, 2023 @11:15PM (#36767380)
Depends on what you need -- chemical engineers can make for good pizza delivery guys, but that's not making the best use of them
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by gruez on Monday July 17, 2023 @11:26PM (#36767446)
But all things being equal, wouldn't you rather have an immigrant who

* speaks the local language

* is highly educated (eg. post-secondary degree)

* is young

* has expertise in an in-demand industry

than one who is missing one or more of the above? For non-refugees, you can screen for the above factors and only admit the ones who are qualified, but for refugees you can't.

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by amrocha on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @01:50AM (#36768340)
No, because then you have no one to do manual jobs because the native well educated youth won't take those.
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by gruez on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @09:15AM (#36771629)
>then you have no one to do manual jobs

And that's fine, because those jobs can either be automated, outsourced, done domestically (ie. driving yourself rather than getting delivery), or at worst case paying more. All things being equal I'd rather have a chemical engineer who can do chemical engineering and deliver pizza, than someone who can only deliver pizza.

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by amrocha on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @03:58AM (#36783299)
It's not that easy, because:

- not all jobs can be automated

- manual laborers make less money

If you see immigrants all around you doing great, while you clean toilets and struggle to feed yourself, that breeds resentment of your government.

And sure, it's easy to say the jobs should just pay more, but that's not the reality today, and if your choice is working a shitty job or starving then that's not really a choice at all.

I would also rather have the chemical engineer, but I think it would be even better to live in a society where both the delivery driver and the chemical engineer are net positives to society.

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by Joeri on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @06:48AM (#36770332)
Refugees have a selection mechanism as well because you have to be enterprising and resourceful to travel all the way to the EU. The US became big by taking in the unwashed masses fleeing Europe, and I think much of its entrepreneurial spirit goes back to that origin story.
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by gruez on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @09:09AM (#36771558)
>Refugees have a selection mechanism as well because you have to be enterprising and resourceful to travel all the way to the EU.

I never claimed that refugees have no selection effects, but is that selection effect comparable to proper immigration screening?

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by smileysteve on Monday July 17, 2023 @11:34PM (#36767498)
The US needs agricultural workers (and fills this with h2b visas) and restaurant (including fast food) staff over the last 10 years but accelerating with the baby boomer retirements (also accelerated by COVID).
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by dougmwne on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @03:50AM (#36769177)
I think a lot of it comes down to political possibility. Lots of EU countries are quite homogeneous and have thousand year old cultures. Importing labor is a harder sell than in the US where everyone is just a few generations removed from immigrants anyway. Europeans were sold the humanitarian angle to get the door open.
Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by kalleboo on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @03:57AM (#36769233)
Immigration is unpopular in the polls. If you're doing proper, structured labor immigration, it needs a political debate on who we want and in how many numbers. With refugees you can just pull on the heart strings, "how can we turn away people fleeing from war?"

The US has something similar with its illegal immigration from Mexico. Every politician since Clinton has pledged to stop illegal immigration but nobody actually does anything about it, because they know that that their labor is essential to the country, and replacing the illegal immigration with legal immigration is too much of a political sore point.

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by pas on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @05:33AM (#36769886)
it's not always unpopular, it's unpopular when the integration costs (as in both actual budget but also cultural/psychological) become bigger than what the population expected.

for example look at Hungary. immigration is very unpopular at the polls, yet now the same government that created this sentiment through endless propaganda passed laws to allow more immigration of laborers, because the new Chinese battery factories that are under construction will require a lot more unskilled labor than which is available. they try to limit any kind of anchoring, no family unification, no visa for non-working spouses, etc. but it's not clear that this will actually attract enough workers...

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by tinus_hn on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @02:36AM (#36768676)
I don’t doubt the intention and I don’t blame those people either; if you work really hard and still live in poverty it’s only logical to move to a country where you can live reasonably on handouts. It’s just not sustainable.

The statistics are clear, these are just facts.

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by raverbashing on Tuesday July 18, 2023 @04:08AM (#36769317)
> idea borrowed from the US. If that has failed, it’s due to a failure of integration.

Yeah, that sounds like 'blaming the victim'

This is not a magical solution where you bring people and the GDP magically increases

It works in the US due to a variety of factors, but I agree with you that being a bit less racist at the same time pushing them to success (read: sink or swim) helps. Oh and the US has much less tolerance for people who come with bad intent and deports a lot more

Re:the US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the... by jen20 on Monday July 17, 2023 @09:08PM (#36766471)
This is at least as much (if not substantially more) to do with boomers who have entitlements wildly unimaginable to anyone younger.