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Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by alistairSH on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @09:34PM (#36501172)
Except almost all white-collar offices (in the US at least) went remote during the first 2-3 years of COVID. Most did so successfully. Yet, many now want to return to traditional office work with little evidence that’s a better way to work.
Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by voisin on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @09:44PM (#36501252)
> Most did so successfully.

There’s a lot of nuance being glossed over here and I don’t think this is clear cut.

Successfully for who? All stakeholders? Every department? Customers and suppliers too?

Does this success translate to a non-pandemic environment with lower expectations by everyone given the circumstances?

Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by alistairSH on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @09:29AM (#36506167)
Wife works for a retail bank. Front-line employees didn't go remote - they need to be in retail bank locations serving customers. Back-office employees were 98% in-office prior to COVID. In several weeks, the company pivoted to remote work, including procurement of laptops (most non-managers had desktops). During the 2.5-3 years of COVID-induced WFH, their engagement numbers and measured productivity went up.

I've heard similar stories from friends and family in similar workplaces.

While I realize that's all anecdotal, I haven't heard any stories countering this narrative.

All that said, I like being in the office a few days/week for all the reasons mentioned. But, my team is all remote (hired that way, mostly pre-COVID), so even when I'm at the office, I'm only chatting with peers on other teams, not the people I'm doing project work with.

Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by HDThoreaun on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @10:27AM (#36506996)
My company went permanent full remote. We are much less productive, velocity per engineer is about half what it was. I'll freely admit it's because the company is poorly managed, but in my experience tons of companies have leadership that isn't able to quickly pivot in the way needed for WFH to be successful. It requires a lot of effort to get remote engineers to communicate well and at least here it basically just doesn't happen anymore.
Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by CtrlAltDelete51 on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @10:04PM (#36501412)
You have a source for any of that?

Speaking personally, everyone I’ve spoken to on the matter (myself included) have zero desire to return to a traditional office.

Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by losteric on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @10:11PM (#36501469)
Are you referring to individual employees or the companies? Clearly many companies are mandating RTO despite remote/self-determined hybrid supported by a strong majority of employee sentiment (and often performance data)
Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by VirusNewbie on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @10:43PM (#36501640)
I like going to the office, i know many people who prefer it.
Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by RestlessMind on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @11:06PM (#36501776)
Heh, you ask for a source and then just provide a personal anecdote?
Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by lynx23 on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @12:28AM (#36502293)
How many people do you know? When WFH was mandated, I hated it. When the mandate was finally kicked, I loved going back to the office, and have spent almost every workday at the office, despite having the possibility to do 40% WFH if I wanted. No, I don't want that, thank you. Not a coder, working as admin. I like people, that is why I work in an office. And personal experience is definitely that working together with people who are currently at home usually slows down processes quite a bit. Besides, sometimes, WFH-people are just not reachable, because reasons... Daughter has sneezed the first time, or wife has decided she needs to go for her yoga class and coworker suddenly needs to care for a 4-year-old... And, god forbid, if you ever say anything when these blatantly shameless things happen, you are the bad guy.
Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by oregano on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @01:32AM (#36502667)
> Not a coder, working as admin

The working environment which is conducive to a successful developer vs a successful admin are, most likely (in my experience), two completely different environments.

Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by thegrumpyenby on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @03:58AM (#36503634)
Did you really just say that having care duties is “blatantly shameless” or has my reading comprehension decided to go out the window just this moment? I am surprisingly hoping for the latter because if you actually meant that, then it’s the most antisocial, classist, ableist take I have come across lately.
Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by HelloNurse on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @04:37AM (#36503875)
Maybe "admin" actually means "slave master".
Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by lynx23 on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @05:14AM (#36504119)
Nah, admin of course means rapist, didn't you know?

WFH-advocates turning to "arguments" like your post is one reason why I oppose this new trend of entitlement. You people really think you are on top of the world and everyone has to dance to your tunes, right? I hope the market will fix this. Go and find a WFH company that lets you slack-off from home all day long. And then, shut up!

Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by HelloNurse on Thursday June 29, 2023 @06:31AM (#36518651)
I'm afraid you just appear

1) pathologically envious enough to punish people because they work from home

2) motivated by ordering colleagues around, which becomes harder if not in person

3) unable to appreciate the comfort of working from home and the importance of having a life.

Do you, as an "admin", feel entitled to be "on top of the world"? Everyone has to dance to your tunes, right?

Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by lynx23 on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @05:03AM (#36504057)
Sure, as a disabled person, I totally like it when abled-body people like you call me "ableist", that is so funny that I almost forget how shitty that move is. Yes, you didnt know, I know, but, keep disability out of your arguments please, people with real disabilities will thank you for that.

And there is a difference between "care duties" and the "papa is at home so we can pester him with family stuff all day long". We have 2 weeks of extra leave for parents, they already have extra priviledges compared to non-parents. If someone declares a few days off because they have to fix something important with their family, that is fine and never was an issue.

But WFH people suddenly realizing at 10 AM that they can not be bothered to work for the next 3 hours is definitely unfair and overstretching the priviledges.

Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by verve_rat on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @07:59AM (#36505179)
If your colleagues are working less and getting their work done, getting paid the same, then maybe you should try working less too?

Unless you own the company what do you care?

Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by tom_ on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @06:54AM (#36504741)
I assume the point, not that it's being put very well, is that the bar for events that render one unavailable, possibly for some unpredictable period, is now lower. Things that previously might not even have registered can now take people away from their metaphorical desk, and there's no scope for simply searching the office until you find them. The average development project is a team effort, and as such, as a developer you are paid for short-notice ad-hoc availability for collaboration or questioning as well as for producing pre-planned individual work items that you mark done on Jira.
Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by nehal3m on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @06:21AM (#36504540)
"Besides, sometimes, WFH-people are just not reachable, because reasons... Daughter has sneezed the first time, or wife has decided she needs to go for her yoga class and coworker suddenly needs to care for a 4-year-old... And, god forbid, if you ever say anything when these blatantly shameless things happen, you are the bad guy."

This is obviously hyperbole for... living a life?

Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @12:34AM (#36502353)
I guess I’m one who likes the office. Not every day. But frequently. And I think I could build a culture with in-office time that would out-compete a remote-only competitor, domestic only or offshore hybrid.
Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by tilne on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @03:55AM (#36503610)
What part of this culture would make it more competitive than any remote-only equivalent? And how would you build it?
Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @07:40AM (#36505027)
> What part of this culture would make it more competitive than any remote-only equivalent?

Hiring, the same way RO outfits can access unique talent, and information transfer, particularly to newer team members. Also, in industries where over-documentation is an unnecessary liability.

Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by benjismith on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @03:24AM (#36503433)
I'm a software engineer, and I think the fully remote-work culture can often be less personally fulfilling.

I enjoy going to an office, having a change of scenery, interacting with people (both close friends and casual acquaintances), brainstorming ideas with a small group around a whiteboard, getting lunch with colleagues, etc, etc...

Sure, the "writing code" part of the job is easier when there are fewer distractions. And a crowded open office can be an annoying source of distractions.

And I definitely enjoy having lunch more often with my family, or hanging out with the dogs, or sitting out on my deck under the trees while I read my morning email.

But working in an office was nice too, and I miss it.

Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by alistairSH on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @09:30AM (#36506181)
A source for companies rolling out return-to-office plans? It's all over the news. Not sure what you're asking.
Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by RestlessMind on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @11:08PM (#36501787)
> with little evidence that’s a better way to work.

You are assuming that decision makers are dumb. I disagree with that. My null hypothesis is that they are smart, competent people and are doing the best decision according to data they are seeing.

Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by jupp0r on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @11:28PM (#36501911)
You are assuming that they see high attrition of their best talent as something bad. Sometimes they don't seem to care if the numbers in Excel look good.
Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by BaseballPhysics on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @11:45PM (#36502022)
> My null hypothesis is that they are smart, competent people and are doing the best decision according to data they are seeing.

Speaking as a senior manager at a smallish software company (300 people), absolutely, decision makers are in my experience smart and competent.

But what they don't do is necessarily make decisions based on data.

I don't believe for a second that most RTO debates are based on meaningful measurement. As with a lot of corporate decisions, I suspect it's a lot of HIPPOs, fingers in the air, and herding behavior.

Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by Agentlien on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @01:30AM (#36502653)
When I joined my current employer the biggest drawback was that unlike my previous job they did not allow remote work. Managers were against it because they were paranoid about people slacking off.

The pandemic hit, we transitioned to remote work, I was happy. Everyone quickly adapted and learned how to efficiently work from home. About two years later, two things happened:

1. Surveys and postmortems showed that remote work lead to increased employee satisfaction and productivity at our company.

2. Company leadership started talking about a mandated return to office.

People of course challenged this decision, pointing to the data, and no real explanation was given. Those who wanted to returned to office, but the mandated return was indefinitely postponed and eventually silently dropped as the manager primarily pushing for a return left the company.

Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by fzeroracer on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @12:05AM (#36502148)
> My null hypothesis is that they are smart, competent people and are doing the best decision according to data they are seeing.

That's precisely the problem. The decision makers suffer from extreme confirmation bias and Dunning-Kruger effect. So what happens is they run surveys, polls etc which are loaded and indicate that employees would 'love' to return to the office. They mandate RTO and are then surprised when people leave en masse because the data they've collected is wrong.

Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by BLKNSLVR on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @01:58AM (#36502826)
> You are assuming that decision makers are dumb

That's only a single aspect, whilst it's also a very wide aspect.

They may not be dumb, they may be "politically smart" and their KPIs are easiest to meet when their subordinates are in the office.

They may not be dumb, but they feel less powerful (and therefore that their position as decision maker is more vulnerable) when their workforce is outside of whipping distance.

They may not be dumb, but their idea of "normal" is not what covid hath wrought, and therefore a return to the office is a return to "normal", and thus a heaving sigh of relief can be had that we're now past that extended weirdness.

They may not be dumb, but they may not be able to understand that people are motivated differently from themselves and from each other. "I work better in the office, therefore y'all do too". (admittedly there's a bit of dumbness in that one, however that's far from saying it's unrealistic or rare).

> according to data they are seeing

Anecdotal warning: Outside of the "best of the best" kinda places, my experience is that most decision makers work on 'feel' and not data - whether data is available or not.

Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by pmontra on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @03:15AM (#36503365)
KPIs adapt to circumstances but the thing about power is correct. I seen many power plays and the size of the "army" of the managers and how much they could assert control were important parts of them. If employees are dispersed they can't help the "generals" too much.
Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by pgeorgi on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @04:41AM (#36503900)
The "best of the best" places are also managed by feel and not data. There's even some kind of rationalization for that: at a sufficiently high management level, they have to make a decision every 30 seconds on average. That's mostly gut-driven by necessity...

Thing is, that normally works out, but large shifts like the "new normal" during the pandemic can take a while for the gut to pick up, and so the default is to get back to the known-good state...

Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by flaminHotSpeedo on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @02:07AM (#36502885)
Let's flip this around: do you (or decision makers) have any evidence that remote work is worse? Without that data, and barring ulterior motives (such as attrition without severance), reversing the status quo and enforcing return to office is, by definition, not a sound data-driven decision.
Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by danjac on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @03:10AM (#36503333)
They might be making the "best decision", but best decision for whom? Their own career, social standing and property investment portfolio? Or the best decision for the company and employee well-being and productivity?
Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by caskstrength on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @04:10AM (#36503720)
> My null hypothesis is that they are smart, competent people and are doing the best decision according to data they are seeing.

I agree. They are seeing the data that their skills of busy-bodies bouncing between meetings and impromptu conversations at other employees desks don't translate well to remote work and they understand that their nice 3mil$ house in the valley will cost much less in couple of years if everyone embraces full remote, so they are doing their best to preserve the status quo.

Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by Ialdaboth on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @05:17AM (#36504141)
Decision makers are politicians, their job is to take the most politically efficient decision according to data. Deciding if it was the best decision to take or not is the job of historians.
Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by WalterBright on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @12:16AM (#36502221)
I've done a lot of remote work over the decades. It starts out well, because you know your coworkers well. But, over time, those relationships fade, and people come and go at work. You lose the connection with them, and they with you.

It's hardly all roses.

Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by soligern on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @12:19AM (#36502237)
It’s all roses. I see my coworkers in person once a year at the Christmas party. Other than that I’ve only every worked with them online since I started working here 2.5 years ago. It’s all roses.
Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by _rm on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @01:18AM (#36502588)
Classic HN, any pitch for a shade of grey gets met with either "no it's white!", followed by "what? everyone knows it's always black!".
Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by verve_rat on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @07:54AM (#36505129)
People are complex and different. If something is white for one person, and black for another, when you put them next to each other you get... black and white.

Reducing people's different experiences to a homogeneous grey mush is overly reductive.

Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by smaudet on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @12:31AM (#36502315)
This is what is meant by the "big corps haven't cracked it".

More progressive corps embraced online socializing earlier, and honestly that's all I need. To be sure something is lost socially by not being in person, but the workplace is not social-drinks club, or if it is that's where your productivity went.

You still build connections with people you only meet online, older folk might have more trouble with that, which makes sense why they might struggle to manage if they heavily depend on "making friends" to do their job.

Training and onboarding can be issues, but barring a straight up lack of talent generally focused efforts are probably better than just assuming the new employee will "make connections" and learn via osmosis.

Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by raverbashing on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @03:46AM (#36503567)
This. Keeping a connection takes some effort

And yes this might mean going to the office once in a while or to a company event etc

Not an unsurmountable problem but it's not negligible neither (as much as it is slowly growing)

Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by flkiwi on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @12:55AM (#36502483)
>You lose the connection with them, and they with you.

I work in an organization with 10s of thousands of workers across the United States. I will never, in the best circumstances, see more than a handful of them in person, other than in-person team meetings, which have themselves become increasingly rare as the team is more geographically diverse than ever and travel budgets are slashed due to ready electronic collaboration tools. So ... what connection? I mean, I don't really care about having a personal connection with these folks anyway. I like them and enjoy having a positive professional relationship with them, but they're my coworkers and we have amazing tools to build those relationships. If some of them become friends, that's fine, but it's not anywhere close to a prerequisite for me to be successful and fulfilled at work.

My entire career I've worked successfully with people I never met who live on the other side of the planet. The whole discussion about the necessity of in-person collaboration over the last 3 years has struck me as one of the weirdest things I've ever seen. I haven't had a conference call in 3 years. I cannot emphasize how revolutionary and positive that change is. I see my coworkers' faces more now than I ever did in the past thanks to Zoom and Teams. It's nothing short of miraculous how much better things are now.

In return for giving up a pointless commute to use a different Internet connection and for spending less time pandering to bosses who want to promote buddies who look like them instead of competent leaders, I can spend more time with people and things I actually care about and more time doing work I love. Every single bit of this new arrangement is roses.

Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by Tade0 on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @02:00AM (#36502845)
I've been in my current project for over two years now, never met the team in person, but we have a good connection - chiefly because we insert some chit-chat into the meetings.
Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by Kiro on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @02:23AM (#36503019)
I don't think most did so successfully. A lot of companies did it without any sort of software or procedures to support remote working and never managed to implement it during the time. They still rely on Skype.

Tech companies are not representative.

Re:Damaging Results of Mandated Return to Office – It's Wors... by nottorp on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @05:02AM (#36504049)
When I started working remotely we had icq and a private irc server :)