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Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by ahaucnx on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @09:22PM (#36501096)
Achim from AirGradient here. Nice to see my blog post getting some attention.

I think the underlying picture here really is that I and my co-founder are both heavily affected by air pollution in Northern Thailand and are seeing how it affects the health of thousands of people.

We believe strongly that air quality monitoring should be affordable so that people from poorer regions and countries can afford air quality monitoring and thus protect their health by knowing when the air quality turns bad. This is one of the reasons why we open-sourced our air quality designs and are working with many NGOs and Universities to bring accurate low-cost air quality monitoring to underserved communities around the world.

Since we are a self-funded company we do not have pressure to maximize profit but can work under the mantra "Impact first (and profit will follow if we do a good job)."

By the way, if you work in air quality research, we are currently running a global co-location test program and are interested in additional partners [1].

[1] https://www.airgradient.com/research/

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by throwoutway on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @09:51PM (#36501314)
This looks really cool! Could you confirm one thing though, which I can't find on your site after ~5 minutes of searching? Do your PM2.5 sensors truly measure PM2.5 or is it doing an approximation based on factors (many sensors supposedly do this).

If it's the former, it might be useful to make that more clear on your site as I could not confirm it.

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by ahaucnx on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @10:03PM (#36501405)
We use the Plantower PMS5003 sensor for PM2.5. This sensor has been extensively tested and is one of the most accurate low cost sensors.

All low cost sensors are using the laser scattering technique and thus do approximate the mass and not a direct measurement.

However tests show that PM2.5 is the most accurate and often PM10 in these sensors is not very good.

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by throwoutway on Thursday June 29, 2023 @03:57PM (#36525855)
Thanks for the response!
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by jauer on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @09:59PM (#36501371)
Their website mentions the sensor they use directly on the kits page. It's a Plantower PMS5003 which does actually count particles: https://www.aqmd.gov/docs/default-source/aq-spec/resources-p...
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by dhhagan on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @06:39AM (#36504646)
While the spec sheet does say that, it's not actually true. The PMS5003 is a truncated nephelometer (https://amt.copernicus.org/articles/15/655/2022/) that measures the total scattered light from all particles with diameters less than ~1 µm. This single scalar value (proportional to the total scattered light, as collected across a wide viewing range) is then correlated to a reference measurement of PM2.5 and typically correlates quite well in most urban areas where PM2.5 and PM1 are highly correlated. For more info on the difference between particle counters and nephelometers in this context, see https://amt.copernicus.org/articles/13/6343/2020/.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by jauer on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @11:43PM (#36516062)
TIL! Thank you for the detailed explanation and links to additional context.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by honk on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @10:46PM (#36501656)
Relevant disclaimer: I work for QuantAQ, another distributed Air Quality Monitoring company, my opinions are my own.

With proper calibration, the PMS5003 sensor AirGradient uses is a real and fairly good measurement of PM1 (<1 micron), which is often fairly correlated with (and makes up much of) PM2.5. However, the sensor cannot really see particles larger than 1 micron, which sometimes matters for PM2.5 (when the PM1:PM2.5 ratio changes, like wildfires), and very much matters for PM10. That's why QuantAQ uses a PMS5003 combined with a different sensing technology (an optical particle counter) to actually measure PM2.5 and PM10, not just extrapolate from a PM1 measurement.

We have a blog post here explaining more: https://blog.quant-aq.com/can-your-plantower-pms5003-based-a...

I love the work that AirGradient is doing making AQ sensing technology open and accessible, especially to hardware hackers. The BOM cost of the OPC sensor we use alongside the PMS5003 is more than the cost of the entire AirGradient kit, so it is valuable to have options in the market depending on application.

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by ahaucnx on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @11:12PM (#36501807)
Thank you for sharing this. Are you using the AlphaSense OPC?
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by aidenn0 on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @11:52PM (#36502070)
I'm just going to take a minute to be happy to see this friendly exchange of information in public between two people who are both knowledgeable about the subject and competitors.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by geerlingguy on Tuesday June 27, 2023 @11:47PM (#36502041)
Excellent overview; I think the space for air monitoring is only going to grow as time goes on, especially after COVID and with increased awareness of the downsides of airborne particulates and high CO2 exposure.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by alias_neo on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @04:25AM (#36503806)
I've been setting up PM sensors in my home since installing a log-burning stove last winter; I've found a couple of interesting things thus far; Notably, despite the FUD, air quality _in_ my home isn't affected by it.

What does affect air quality in my home massively, are the people parking their vehicles surrounding my home morning and afternoon as they drop off and pick up their children from the nearby school. I see a 10x ambient measure at these times. I was starting to think about how I could use BLE monitoring to track this somehow (the other thing my home is surrounded with at these times is devices broadcasting Bluetooth "beacons"(?)); could be an interesting experiment.

The next step for me is really knowing what and how something can be done about the pollution (generally speaking); Monitoring is great, but what's the next step?

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by hutzlibu on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @06:16AM (#36504497)
"Monitoring is great, but what's the next step?"

Short term: install air filters

Long term: banning ICE cars

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by electriclove on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @10:47AM (#36507245)
Long term: move to a different home
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by hutzlibu on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @11:21AM (#36507796)
Well, I did. But not everyone can. And long term it would be nice, if the cities would have breathable air again.

Also where there is good air, there ain't so many people.

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by fragmede on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @02:24PM (#36510465)
Longer term: move to a different planet.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by PantaloonFlames on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @01:17AM (#36502585)
How much would it cost me to install a modulair-PM on my rooftop, assuming I did the work? I’m just an individual, i just want transparent information. I don’t want to “contact sales” as it says on the link from that blog post.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by getwiththeprog on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @01:47AM (#36502755)
You could buy a Bosch BME680 or similar for $20 and add it to a Pi or Arduino.

A commercial model is around $200.

There are a lot of options so decide if you want to build it or buy it and plug it in!

Then you can list your data on a site like https://explore.openaq.org/

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by tlavoie on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @03:36AM (#36503513)
The BME 680 does temperature, humidity, barometric pressure, and VOC gas sensing. Maybe there's something reasonably-priced that does particulates, but this doesn't seem to be it. What's a good alternative?
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by Eisenstein on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @07:35AM (#36504992)
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by tlavoie on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @11:25AM (#36507857)
That looks awesome, thanks! I already have some ESP32 devices acting as weather sensors that log to a Raspberry Pi over MQTT. I might have to add this too.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by throwaway2037 on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @04:28AM (#36503823)
Very impressive. I looked up that Bosch device: https://www.bosch-sensortec.com/products/environmental-senso...

Then, I found a board from Adafruit. The chip is so tiny in the Adafruit photo!

https://www.adafruit.com/product/3660

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by honk on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @02:09AM (#36502899)
Thanks for the interest! We have transparent pricing here: https://quant-aq.com/pricing

Short answer, $1500 + $300 annually (includes cellular, realtime data calibration in our cloud, and full API access).

Relevant to the topic above, we are building for a slightly different market than AirGradient, and want to make sure we're an appropriate solution for potential customers -- you might genuinely be better served by a different product! As such, we're currently not optimized for low touch single sales to individuals, but it's something we'd like to improve in the future.

If you do contact sales, and we end up being a good fit for what you're looking for, we'd love to help!

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by pbronez on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @07:14AM (#36504843)
I’d be interested in a prosumer version of this that ditches the LTE and cloud system for wall power + WiFi or (ideally) PoE with a fully local backend via home assistant
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by ahaucnx on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @07:30AM (#36504949)
I am curious, how do you do real-time calibration in the cloud?
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by cloudripper on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @09:32AM (#36506204)
I'm a big fan of QuantAQ. Speaking from a PM10 perspective, your monitors perform on-par with high-cost regulatory monitors in a much smaller package and far lower cost. I also love the open API. That said, I would love to see a locally-hosted variety for environments where LTE/cloud is not accessible/preferred.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by throwoutway on Thursday June 29, 2023 @03:57PM (#36525861)
Great response, I learned something new! Thanks
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by gcanyon on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @02:01AM (#36502850)
Congrats on doing important work!

I grew up in Southern California back when it was hard to see the mountains ten miles away on bad days.

I lived in Bangkok for two years. At the worst of the year I still wandered around maskless, thinking "feels like my childhood!" So for me it really didn't seem that bad, but I'm glad people are taking it more seriously now.

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by xctr94 on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @02:35AM (#36503104)
Looks like a great concept! I found the price relatively high compared to other solutions on the market, aren’t you concerned that you’re touting “affordability” as a selling point?
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by ra on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @04:24AM (#36503802)
Sub $100 USD is a pretty good price. What comparable products have you seen for less?
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by ahaucnx on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @05:58AM (#36504390)
Comparable products are typically 3x or more the price. A lot of costs are not BOM related, e.g. costs for tooling (e.g. plastic mold), certifications, testing & calibration etc.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by yardie on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @07:33AM (#36504982)
What AQMs are you finding for <$100?
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by supermatt on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @03:54AM (#36503605)
Just want to say - I received mine yesterday. I was expecting it to be held up in customs but it arrived with no hassle whatsoever via the postal service.

I got the presoldered version, kind of expecting it to be 100% assembled, but it was even better that I had to to "plug" the sensors and microcontroller in! It made me feel like I had achieved something myself, and gave an appreciation of how it works :)

The quality of the product looks excellent - inside and out. Although maybe some snap-in transparent plastic in front of the display would protect it from accidental damage? Not that there is any reason to ever touch it, so I guess its not really that important. It certainly doesnt detract from the overall build quality.

A minor niggle on adding the sensor to the online app - i didn't get any feedback that it had added, and when i tried a second time it told me that it was already added. Also, I cant see a way to add/edit places other than creating the one during setup. Probably a few other minor UX niggles I can send an email if desired? But overall it looks great!

I am very interested to see how the air quality changes during the next kiln firings. Thanks!

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by ahaucnx on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @05:23AM (#36504182)
Thanks for the feedback. We are working on making the onboarding easier and also improve the UI in general. Please get in touch with us if you have more feedback (you can use the support form on our website).
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by itronitron on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @05:01AM (#36504046)
I agree with the mission of your company and hope you find success, however after reading your website's Privacy Policy regarding the sharing of personal information I don't expect to ever revisit your site.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by charcircuit on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @05:17AM (#36504142)
I don't see anything unusual there just google analytics and that they comply with law enforcement.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by itronitron on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @05:44AM (#36504308)
The site doesn't provide an option to opt out of advertising/marketing cookies.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by ahaucnx on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @05:56AM (#36504381)
We currently don't do any paid advertising at all. But good point, we will look into this and it's definitely something we can improve.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by artemonster on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @05:51AM (#36504348)
Is it hard to skip MCU and output to raspberry?
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by tda on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @06:07AM (#36504446)
On a side note, I recently upgraded my airgradient-pro to and esp32 s3 based board (forgot which one but it is pin compatible with the esp8266 it came with).

I got everything to work with ESPHome, except for the BSEC version of the BME680 driver (I added a BME60 because I had one lying around. It worked fine with BSEC and ESPHOME on the ESP8266). I was thinking of sharing my experience, but I never got to it

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by pbronez on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @07:09AM (#36504816)
What benefit does the esp32 provide over the esp8266?
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by tda on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @07:57AM (#36505157)
I wanted to show some simple graphs on the display, but this quickly became too much for the esp8266
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by MegaThorx on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @07:36AM (#36504999)
Thanks for the awesome DIY version of the air quality monitoring solution. Due to this nice guide I already built 3 of the basic sensors and I just purchased one pro to support your cause.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by ahaucnx on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @09:15AM (#36505965)
Thank you!
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by kodah on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @07:51AM (#36505112)
Do you have any plans to do Radon monitoring? I currently use AirThings Wave+ because of a radon monitoring requirement.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by ahaucnx on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @09:08AM (#36505884)
We are not aware of any suitable radon module on the market that we could easily integrate. I think airthings use their own developed module.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by evandev on Friday June 30, 2023 @01:09PM (#36538567)
Wouldn't it be suitable to use something like ABPMAND001PG2A3[0] And set it up like this[1]?

0: https://www.digikey.com/short/rhbvm452 1: https://www.instructables.com/Radon-Mitigation-Monitor/

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by lwouis on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @07:53AM (#36505126)
Hello,

Thank you for sharing this.

I'm genuinely wondering how our nose is not a good enough sensor. Are there common cases that affect large areas like the one you live in, where the pollution is not smellable?

Thank you

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by gbajson on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @07:59AM (#36505174)
In my area in the winter you always sense air pollution.

But with just a nose it's hard to say if it's 100 μg/m3 of or 200 μg/m3 of PM2.5.

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by olyjohn on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @06:32PM (#36513565)
I never could smell the pollution in Bangkok. I don't think people in LA could smell the smog. Certainly when we had wildfire smoke here near Seattle a couple years ago, I could not always smell it. Sometimes when it was heavy, you could smell smoke right when you went outside, but not always... and your nose gets used to it really quickly. But like, that was pollution you could see, the skies were dark and orange. Not really typical pollution levels that people live in every day.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by hosteur on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @08:02AM (#36505192)
Hello. I would love to buy your products. However, I am stopped by the fact that I have to enter email and agree to terms before I can even see shipping options and costs. Please consider making the shopping process easier and more pleasant.

I am in EU and concerned that it might not be feasible for me to order your products due to high import fees, tax, customs, VAT, etc. that I would probably need to handle myself. Do you plan on establishing a dealer in EU or a shipping site in EU such that items can be shipped from within EU without customers having to deal with the customs, tax, etc?

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by ahaucnx on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @09:07AM (#36505865)
Currently we ship all kits from Thailand but setting up some fulfillment in the US and EU could be something we might do in future. Currently most customers do not get charged customs and VAT.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by louison11 on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @09:54AM (#36506514)
Please do! Maybe Amazon is the easiest way to do so? On top of reducing delays, you'd reduce uncertainty. Here in Portugal, the problem isn't really custom fees - but customs completely blocking/losing/returning the product. Really hard to get packages from abroad to get through our super incompetent custom services. But that's not a problem if it comes from within EU.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by lokar on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @11:36AM (#36508021)
You want counterfeits? Selling/buying on Amazon is a good way to get them.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by BizarroLand on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @01:11PM (#36509412)
Amazon is terrible for small companies. Sure, it boosts your income and customer reach, but that's just the cheese to get you in the trap.

After you are locked into their ecosystem, they prevent you from selling for less elsewhere, even on your own site, they coerce you into paying them ad fees to boost your listing in their search results, and if you don't pay them enough they will put your competitors above you and redirect searches that are specifically for your product to other similar items.

Then, if despite all of that you do well, they will find some company in China to make an "Amazon Basics" version of whatever it is that you're selling and then undercut you on price and boost their listings above yours.

You might even say that this is a win for consumers since they get fast cheap access to products, but the product quality is always a race to the bottom and because this happens so often it results in the death of product innovation from good companies because they have to spend so much brainpower and energy keeping the Amazon machine happy while it consumes them.

Ebay is a little better, but that is also rapidly enshittifying as well.

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by hombre_fatal on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @04:29PM (#36512139)
Even if all that’s true, Amazon let’s me buy things knowing when I’ll receive it and with the confidence that I can return it (and always for cash) without jumping through hoops.

That makes it better than buying from indie sites just about every time.

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by BizarroLand on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @06:12PM (#36513358)
I've heard that you should vote with your wallet for what is important to you.

Whatever Amazon has to offer is not worth what it costs to me, so I vote in other ways by shopping elsewhere, and should I have something to sell I will use other means to sell it.

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by papertokyo on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @07:14PM (#36513999)
The post describes why Amazon is bad as a small businesses selling original products, not whether it's good as a customer.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by DropInIn on Thursday June 29, 2023 @01:16PM (#36523445)
Just a note on not selling for cheaper:

Register a second company that is exclusively for distribution on amazon, with that company selling at the higher price.

Best done using corps

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by ajyotirmay on Saturday July 01, 2023 @01:44PM (#36552771)
Hi, I get your point. Thus, whenever I'm looking for a product on amazon, I go to the website of manufacturer and try to get the intended product from there.

It can be a bit of hassle sometime, like having to pay for shipping or the delay in receiving it compared to amazon prime, or the option for return.

But apart from covering the shipping (which sometimes is okay for a product with higher value), I prefer to use the original website instead of Amazon. Few reasons being:

1. Genuine product 2. I don't want to help Amazon grow its huge empire 3. I want to support independent companies

So, hearing your comment, I'm glad I'm doing the right thing

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by balfirevic on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @09:39AM (#36506283)
> I am in EU and concerned that it might not be feasible for me to order your products due to high import fees, tax, customs, VAT

EU dealer would have to pay the same import fees and VAT. It would be less of a hassle, but probably not cheaper.

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by hosteur on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @09:51AM (#36506478)
> EU dealer would have to pay the same import fees and VAT. It would be less of a hassle, but probably not cheaper.

In my country (and I guess many other EU countries - although it varies from country do country), it is a huge hassle and expensive too. And if you make any mistakes in the red tape you get hit with all sorts of ridiculous fees. Also, the package is usually delayed in customs for weeks or months. Whereas packages shipped from within EU typically arrives within next business day of them arriving in the destination country.

So avoiding the hassle is well worth it in order to get to the EU market.

Also, it may actually be cheaper. In my country, the local post office adds a "handling fee" of 30 EUR just for the service of informing you that you need to pay customs, VAT, etc. on the item. At least this is 30 EUR that can be saved on each item.

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by RegnisGnaw on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @09:09AM (#36505886)
Interesting none of the kits from AirGradient seem to do PM0.3, which is the big thing I want (due to smoke).
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by cloudripper on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @09:19AM (#36506017)
Thank you for sharing more about AirGradient and its origins. I appreciate the impact-driven mission. I will checkout the details of your co-location program and may have a few sites that would be a good fit.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by ahaucnx on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @09:28AM (#36506145)
Great! Please get in touch with us via the support form on our website if it is a fit.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by stinos on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @11:26AM (#36507881)
Just wondering, do you have any comments on https://smartairfilters.com/en ? The premise is a bit similar as yours.
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by hedora on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @10:13PM (#36515516)
I have some (hopefully) constructive criticism.

I looked into your product, but needed a monitoring solution, not a hobby project. I ended up paying a bit over $1000 for a (more capable) ambient weather solution, which meets the requirements in your blog post (with the possible exception of repairability).

Anyway, I’d have paid about 2x your pre-soldered kit price for a thing that came pre-assembled, with software preloaded, and an idiot proof way to publish the results to local devices and/or cloud services.

I am comfortable with soldering irons, writing embedded software, etc. However, I have plenty of money, but no time. I’m sure you could make large margins off of people like me, and plow it back into additional products.

Best of luck! You’re doing cool stuff!

Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by daveisfera on Friday June 30, 2023 @03:07PM (#36540503)
What’s your thought on that air quality monitor released by Amazon? I’d love to see the cost come down even more, but it looks like the most affordable option on the market right now
Re:The hidden cost of air quality monitoring by garfieldnate on Sunday July 02, 2023 @04:04PM (#36565118)
Where are the actual source code and hardware designs? Being marketed as open source, I expect a link to repositories in the footer at least.