People without good enough “father figures” turn out emotionally volatile. I see it in myself, and I see it in others. Sometimes, emotions should be observed and not yielded to. “Toxic masculinity” is just taking this to the extreme of disregarding all emotions. “Toxic femininity” is just yielding to all of one’s emotions. It mirrors the narcissist:BPD relationships (absent, cold, and self-absorbed man; next to the hysterical, ever-present, and needy woman).

A healthy person has cultivated both aspects of themselves in moderation (learning to listen to and identify one’s emotions, and having the good judgement to know when they should and shouldn’t be allowed to continue) — this is usually best done by emulating others with this healthy outlook, most commonly with a healthy mother and father (but with the dissolution of gender norms, gender doesn’t matter on the surface, so long as the people involved have nurtured both parts well).

The best way to raise boys is in a village with all sorts of people to learn from. The worst way is to neglect them and let them figure out life for themselves.

The best way to raise boys is to become a good man.

They said "accept him", as a direct object.

Not "accept the fact that he had negative qualities", which is something entirely different.

Forgiveness is all about detachment. Forgiveness is not only good for the forgiven, it is good for you, too. If you let hate fester in you, it will incline you toward wrath. Hate the sin and not the sinner. Love and pray for your enemy.

i'd even go as far as saying that forgiveness is primarily good for you or me. the accused may not even need to know that they have been forgiven.

Now, that doesn't mean you should just act as if nothing happened. Actions have consequences, and those consequences should be determined by the gravity of the actions.

"Abuse" is a vague term and often people mean very different things by it. Some people call their father throwing a fit of anger or cussing their kids out about something every now and then "abuse". And then other people use the same term to refer to really diabolical stuff, like child-buggering. With the less serious and more understandable stuff, you should also take into consideration what your father was going through at the time, and how that might have influenced his actions and his judgment. When I got older and began to understand what my father has had to deal with (including me lol), it really made me not care at all about some of the rough-ups we had. So I mean whether or not you should want to patch up the relationship with your father should really be determined by the character of the abuse, the extent of it, the circumstances, et cetera. This should also determine what exactly "patching up" that relationship means - like what kinds of boundaries you set, and so on.

i pretty much feel the same when i look at my experience growing up.

But... I don't let that define my life. I miss mom, and I always will, but I made peace with it and have moved on. You can't just spend your life sobbing into a pillow or grinding my teeth in rage, at some point you have to go back to just living again.

That would stand if you considered every guy talking shit about their father as "bad" men, regardless of how they behave otherwise.

I agree having a settle relationship with one's father is better, but people with legitimate grief against their father and having objective disgust about what they did as human beings shouldn't be a disqualifying situation.

I'm also a bit perplexed by the opposition between hating someone and accepting them. You can acknowledge what someone did for you, see where they come from and accept they are who they are, while hating their guts.

Are their children supposed to "accept" him regardless, and feel bad about themselves if they can't?

Keeping toxic people in your life, regardless of their gender, is not something that somehow makes you a better or stronger person. And most psychologists with licenses agree.

And it's important to accept those things we cannot change, lest they torment us.

The animus in the culture right now is divided between those who have some acceptance of their fathers, and those who don't. It's not just a right/left thing either, as that animus decides whether someone chooses to be an unworthy person who blames, betrays, and justifies their own cruelty to others because of what they imagine they suffered themselves - or not. Understand who he was and consider that a lot of the anger at "The World," was really just pent up anger at him. Personally, I think a key role of a father is to moderate the urges for cruelty, vanity, conceit, self pity, and other vices that mothers often overlook and forgive, and mainly by example.

Sorry, but this pseudo-intellectual nonsense.

Granted, some children who don't "accept who their fathers were" fall into the borderline spectrum that you're referring to. Or are needlessly resentful of their parents due to simple human failings, such as a single lapse of judgement at some key moment. Of course.

But a very significant portion have perfectly valid reasons for "not accepting who their fathers were". And it would be psychologically unhealthy for them to try to force themselves to do so.

Any more than any other victim of violent (or comparable) crime needs to "accept their attacker for who they were". Or force themselves to "understand" their attacker's motives. Let alone forgive them for anything.

Because I’m not the one that raped his nine year old daughter over and over and then lied to his brothers about it, then finally fessed up right before they tried to hire a hitman to kill the mother of his children.

I’m not the man who, when his estranged adult son finally got up the courage to come over and demand answers in the vain hope that maybe he could grow and learn from a contrite man, instead answered “your sister was the one who started it, she was asking for it”.

I am, in fact, the son of said man. I have two daughters. How exactly do I learn to be an example? Because the clear bar to meet, set by my forebears is “don’t abandon your kids and don’t rape your girls and great job! Gold Star! Dad of the year! Oh and I mean, if shit goes sideways, just abandon those losers and start another family, it’ll be fine!”

How can I not be a little wary of the depths of darkness to which the male soul can go? I don’t hate all men but I am very, very wary. Men can be absolutely the most depraved and terrifying brutes. Satan himself would gasp at the things men can come up with to indulge their sick pleasures and perversions.

There are a lot of grievances that are very very real. We shouldn’t deny them. I personally suspect girls are put at a much higher risk of abuse when they have a stepfather vs their biological father. I would never put my girls in a situation where they’d be in the company of a man that isn’t closely related to them and vetted (a la grandpa didn’t abuse my sisters so he’s okay). Sleepovers are absolutely not allowed. But these are the sorts of things that will get you in a lot of trouble to say in polite society. I don’t care. I just want my daughters to grow up without any men laying their hands on them.

Anyway I’ve spent enough time writing and rewriting this. I’m going to read my kid a story. I hope maybe this changes your mind in some way that is productive. I definitely think boys should be raised differently than however the hell my dad was raised.

I won't pretend to know her family struggles, but the public lynching of present fathers is becoming a strong dark theme.

At 5yo, he threatened to take me to the sheriff's and adopt me out because I was "horrible".

Was told constantly to "man up", and ignore any sort of emotions I was having.

He also beat me. Naturally, that was perfectly acceptable in the 80's, even in public. Instead, it was called "spanking".

He would buy toys, then take them away to take a hammer to them, or otherwise destroy them in front of me.

Told me that I'd never amount to anything and that I should just join the military cause thats where stupid people go.

Anything bad that happened to me was always my fault. Didn't matter what it was. My fault.

It also didn't work out that my mother was/is an enabler and a narcissist (and, well, abused by him too).

I don't care what people call this. Patriarchy, etc. Those're just labels. But did they hurt me until I figured out how to undo the damage of childhood? Damn straight they did. And I wont perpetuate these abuses on any other.

And I've met people like you, motohagiography , that defend these sorts of abuses as the general mantra "man up". I find defending obvious assaults and child abuses to be disgusting.

And, well, burying my dad did finally put a nail in that coffin, so to speak.