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Re:How Many Sensors for Autonomous Driving? by mjh2539 on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @11:42AM (#36228317)
You'd think that governments would have some stake in providing infrastructure specifically for this. Underground magnets and radios along important roadways...that kind of thing.

What I'm getting at is, there's no reason to assume that the current amount of information presented on a roadway (stripes, lights, stopsigns, etc.) is sufficient for autonomous driving. Or maybe it is, but adding a few more inexpensive things would make it that much easier to achieve.

Re:How Many Sensors for Autonomous Driving? by jjoonathan on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @12:07PM (#36228735)
When the road quality, paint, and signage is decent, modern self driving stacks really don't have any problem seeing it and using it. Effort should be focused on improving those so that everyone benefits.

If Tesla (or any self driving player, but the Tesla FSD stack drives a million miles/day across the US right now) published a road quality score, home buyers would quickly start paying attention and then home owners would quickly start paying attention. This would push forward the political will to fix the roads, at least in places where low road quality is driven by budgeting problems rather than outright poverty.

Re:How Many Sensors for Autonomous Driving? by bonestamp2 on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @12:38PM (#36229322)
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Re:How Many Sensors for Autonomous Driving? by hanniabu on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @02:16PM (#36230973)
Better to not design cars that rely on parts of the infrastructure that won't be maintained
Re:How Many Sensors for Autonomous Driving? by bonestamp2 on Thursday June 08, 2023 @07:48PM (#36251015)
Exactly. We should only maintain the things that the people rely on, and build the cars to rely on those same things... at least for now. Once the cars are good enough that people are no longer in control of cars, then we can look at changing that standard to reduce the cost of infrastructure maintenance.
Re:How Many Sensors for Autonomous Driving? by amanaplanacanal on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @01:47PM (#36230445)
Almost nobody wants higher taxes to fix roads. Technical problems are easy compared to political problems. I think we are stuck with what we have.
Re:How Many Sensors for Autonomous Driving? by autoexec on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @02:23PM (#36231093)
> Almost nobody wants higher taxes to fix roads.

I think most people would argue that the taxes they're paying now should cover it and if that's not enough we could try things like diverting tax money from waste, eliminating earmarks, or maybe even start forcing corporations and billionaires to pay their fair share. People want nice roads and are willing to pay taxes for it, but the burden shouldn't fall entirely on the shrinking middle class.

Re:How Many Sensors for Autonomous Driving? by jjoonathan on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @01:53PM (#36230575)
Nobody wants to pay to fix roads... until their property values get dinged for having bad roads. That's my point.
Re:How Many Sensors for Autonomous Driving? by whowe444 on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @11:53AM (#36228503)
One reason to assume that the current amount of information presented on a roadway is sufficient is that humans can learn to drive in a matter of hours with only two vision sensors mounted on their heads.
Re:How Many Sensors for Autonomous Driving? by dbcurtis on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @12:21PM (#36228976)
> humans can learn to drive in a matter of hours with only two vision sensors

You use way more than two vision sensors in your head. But first, lets talk about those vision sensors. They are mounted on an articulated scanning platform with numerous degrees of freedom. The dynamic range is astounding, and that dynamic range can be easily augmented with shaded lenses that can be mounted and removed as needed via an extremely reliable pick-and-place mechanism. The vision sensors are really equipped with dual-sensing technology for day- and night-mode.

But, you also have extremely sensitive accelerometers in your ears. And force-sensing in your feet to measure applied acceleration/braking controls. And force-sensing in your hands to measure applied steering force, and measure road roughness. You also are sitting on a force sensor that serves as a back-up accelerometer. You have audio sensors that provide feedback about road surface, vehicle performance, and other agents sharing the road.

Re:How Many Sensors for Autonomous Driving? by jvm___ on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @12:32PM (#36229211)
Relevant short and long-term memory of every 3d object you've ever seen along a road-side and what the expected behaviour of those objects should be. Does a road-sign usually move by itself? No, maybe someone is carrying it. Is a ball coming from behind a car in a school-zone likely to be chased by a child...
Re:How Many Sensors for Autonomous Driving? by dbcurtis on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @01:46PM (#36230428)
> Is a ball coming from behind a car in a school-zone likely to be chased by a child.

Yeah, that kind of agent prediction is a biggie. Agent prediction is something journalists don't talk about much, but is a huge research topic for AV practitioners.

And since you make note of expected behavior of objects... my all-time favorite bug report out of Waymo (that made the public news) is a classic classifier/predictor/planner corner case leading to deadlock. Classifier identified a cyclist and labeled as "stopped" if cyclist has foot on the ground, and "moving" if both feet on pedals. Predictor would plot a trajectory for moving cyclist, planner decides action based on predicted agent behavior. So... Waymo vehicle and cyclist on two corners of 4-way stop. Cyclist is stopped, doing a perfectly balanced track stand with both feet clipped in. Feet on pedals so cyclist is labeled as moving agent... planner yields right-of-way to cyclist according to rules-of-the-road. Deadlock -- nobody moves.

Re:How Many Sensors for Autonomous Driving? by jvm___ on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @03:19PM (#36232062)
Isn't that how Waymo killed a pedestrian/cyclist? It couldn't decide if she was a cyclist or pedestrian, as she was walking and pushing her bicycle, so it never braked.

She was homeless so the shape of her bike wasn't a proper bike so it got confused.

Re:How Many Sensors for Autonomous Driving? by magicalist on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @04:01PM (#36232698)
Uber, and it probably could have braked but the emergency braking was purposefully disabled.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Elaine_Herzberg

Re:How Many Sensors for Autonomous Driving? by dbcurtis on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @05:21PM (#36233759)
Yes, Uber, operating in Level 3, and safety driver was watching a movie on phone at the time.

Very different circumstances. I don’t think this was a classifier defect. Not that I was ever a fan of Uber’s development program, but in this case I can’t fault the platform.

Re:How Many Sensors for Autonomous Driving? by throw2022110401 on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @12:41PM (#36229384)
Even if it's sufficient why settle for that? We should take advantage of the best or most practical technologies available.

Most automobiles don't run on legs and airplanes are not flapping their wings either.

Re:How Many Sensors for Autonomous Driving? by mattnewton on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @12:06PM (#36228721)
The US DoT estimated $340 billion lost in traffic accident damage and just over 42,000 people’s lives lost in 2021. I think we accept that largely because it is diffused across lots of people. Self driving cars would centralize some of this liability and so they have to be an order of magnitude safer before they are accepted to replace our current system. And the existing “system” of human brains has millions of years of R&D; I think anyone in the industry should be accepting any unfair advantages we can get in the name of safety.

After all does anyone care if the plane they are in is flapping its wings?

Re:How Many Sensors for Autonomous Driving? by dymk on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @12:34PM (#36229239)
We use a lot more than our eyes to drive, and people aren't trusted to start driving until they're in their teens - so closer to 15 years of training. And we're still not all that good at it.
Re:How Many Sensors for Autonomous Driving? by jvm___ on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @12:13PM (#36228838)
Plus the knowledge and intuition that, for example

Firetruck >_____________< Fire Hydrant

Something that looks flat but is actually a fire hose means you should stop instead of driving over it - this was actually issue in Phoenix(?)

A homeless lady was killed by a self-driving car. She was walking a loaded bicycle, at 2am, on a road that doesn't usually have pedestrians. The self-driving car couldn't decide if she was a bike or a human so it didn't brake and the human-driver backup had zoned out as the car had made 99.99% of the correct decisions.

A self-driving car is like a jigsaw puzzle - there's one way to do it right, and infinite ways for it to be completely or subtly wrong.

"What do you see" and "What does it mean"

Humans and cameras have the same "What do you see" input, but the "What does it mean" category hasn't been conquered by cars.

Re:How Many Sensors for Autonomous Driving? by bluGill on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @01:05PM (#36229720)
Humans haven't mastered that either. The question is which is statistically better, not which is perfect.
Re:How Many Sensors for Autonomous Driving? by autoexec on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @02:26PM (#36231169)
If a human screws up while driving and they end up in a wheelchair they have no one but themselves to blame, but if software puts someone in a wheelchair who otherwise wouldn't have been that person isn't going to care about "statistically better". They shouldn't care either. If carmakers want to take control away from a person, they had better do at least as well the person would 100% of the time.
Re:How Many Sensors for Autonomous Driving? by bluGill on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @05:54PM (#36234155)
I lost a good friend who was hit by a car while he was walking. Your entire argument is wrong because of That situation.
Re:How Many Sensors for Autonomous Driving? by autoexec on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @09:11PM (#36235895)
It's not as if pedestrians are any safer. A self driving car that hits a person because it gets confused where a human wouldn't have is just as bad. When lives are on the line, taking control from the human requires that the machine must be at least good as the human would be in every situation or we're better off leaving humans in control with machines augmenting their abilities.

It's great that we have cars that can warn us when there's something in our blind spot, something behind us while we back up, or when we drift out of our lane. Until the software can perform as well as we can, any more than that is a liability.

Re:How Many Sensors for Autonomous Driving? by bluGill on Thursday June 08, 2023 @09:04AM (#36241199)
> machine must be at least good as the human would be in every situation or we're better off leaving humans in control with machines augmenting their abilities.

That isn't quite right. There can be situations where the human is better, so long as in the majority of situations the machine is better. This is why I said it is a statistical question. I'm not demanding perfection, I'm asking for better than humans overall. Of course if the machine knows it is in a situation where it isn't as good it is fine to make the human drive.

Re:How Many Sensors for Autonomous Driving? by louniks on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @12:07PM (#36228742)
Except we don't, not really. We're still leveraging 15 or so years of experience living the real world and walking on sidewalks and crossing streets and observing how other humans drive cars and being passengers in cars before we ever try driving ourselves. Not to mention, some humans definitely don't learn to drive in a matter of hours, they need weeks if not months.
Re:How Many Sensors for Autonomous Driving? by ethanbond on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @11:50AM (#36228442)
Even "inexpensive" things spread over millions of miles of roadway gets pretty expensive. Let's start with the basics of reliable painting and safe road surface.
Re:How Many Sensors for Autonomous Driving? by spookie on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @11:49AM (#36228435)
I'm not sure if this would help. It might be somewhat inexpensive, but at scale? I don't know.

Most roads aren't even properly painted ._.

Re:How Many Sensors for Autonomous Driving? by beefield on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @12:06PM (#36228722)
I'd be happy to have autonomous driving in just a few roads, namely highways. I really do not understand why there is practically zero interest in getting me out of the wheel where it would be both the easiest and the most useful. I'm more than happy to drive the bits within the city of I just could rest in between. Both embedding some kind of track in the highway my car can follow or a wireless peloton technology behind trucks should be orders of magnitude easier problem to solve than full self driving.
Re:How Many Sensors for Autonomous Driving? by ClumsyPilot on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @06:24PM (#36234480)
When I did my driving test, I have to drive through a road that was not painted. I was still expected to drive without crashing into anything.
Re:How Many Sensors for Autonomous Driving? by foobiekr on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @12:03PM (#36228669)
The problem space in self driving is the set of unexpected and uncommon events. Pretty much any solution can do lanekeeping fine.
Re:How Many Sensors for Autonomous Driving? by MetaWhirledPeas on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @11:49AM (#36228426)
It will need to be visual, so that people can immediately recognize compliance, in addition to machines.
Re:How Many Sensors for Autonomous Driving? by lb1lf on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @12:14PM (#36228853)
Not necessarily; I find it doubtful a person can stay alert and ready to take the wheel at a moment's notice after the car has minded its own business for however long.

Hence, either /you/ drive, or /the car/ drives. If the car doesn't understand what is going on, it should stop. (Humans really suck at monitoring boring, monotonous processes. We cannot expect people to do so in a self-driving car for hour after hour on the off chance something happens.)

Re:How Many Sensors for Autonomous Driving? by MetaWhirledPeas on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @01:33PM (#36230162)
> I find it doubtful a person can stay alert and ready to take the wheel at a moment's notice after the car has minded its own business for however long

I don't mean so people can navigate; I mean so people can complain to a city or district when a road is improperly marked.

Re:How Many Sensors for Autonomous Driving? by hn_throwaway_99 on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @01:35PM (#36230221)
This would never be feasible. To start, forget underground magnets and radios. If you just started with properly painted lines, always-functioning traffic signals, and correct street signs, autonomous driving would be much, much easier than it is now.

But the vast majority of the difficulty in autonomous driving is simply dealing with the messiness of the real world. For example, many of the most serious and notable autonomous driving crashes have been the result of faulty road conditions (e.g. https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/25/21153320/tesla-autopilot-... - in that case, the driver wasn't paying attention, but the fact that lane markers were worn down is what caused Autopilot to lose lane tracking, and the fact that crash attenuator in front of the barrier was damaged and not replaced contributed to the driver's death).

Government can't even keep decent lane lines on the roads, and thus I think an autonomous driving system that had to depend on magnets or radios (that failed if those were out) would be even more of a non-starter.

Re:How Many Sensors for Autonomous Driving? by hermitdev on Wednesday June 07, 2023 @02:14PM (#36230940)
> If you just started with properly painted lines, always-functioning traffic signals, and correct street signs, autonomous driving would be much, much easier than it is now.

If you had this, driving period would be safer, automated or not. And that's before getting into inclement weather conditions where, say, lines or signage may not be visible.