News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by VWWHFSfQ on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:17PM (#35979915)
I didn't mind them deleting the antivax garbage
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by mrangle on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:27PM (#35980034)
Of course you do not mind. But that means that you have no room for complaint when they delete something that you consider to be "not garbage".
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by anamexis on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:38PM (#35980166)
Yes you do. Agreeing with some moderation does not mean you must agree with all moderation.
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by bakugo on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:42PM (#35980230)
Calling censorship "moderation" doesn't make it not censorship.
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by anamexis on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:46PM (#35980286)
Ok. Agreeing with some censorship does not mean you must agree with all censorship.
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by bakugo on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:52PM (#35980376)
No, it doesn't, but you're a hypocrite if you don't.

If you think there's nothing wrong with the idea that "censorship is good as long as I'm not the one being censored", I don't know what to tell you.

Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by vkou on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @04:01PM (#35980497)
Not everyone is a speech absolutist, that doesn't make them hypocrites.

In fact, as speech absolutists have taken over a few platforms, we've discovered that the primary hypocrisy surrounding speech is that there's a lot of people who claim to be speech absolutists, but aren't when push comes to shove.

Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by lern_too_spel on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @04:10PM (#35980611)
If you eat bread, you must also eat shit. If you don't, you're a hypocrite.

It's astounding how many people are incapable of making judgments except along artificial lines given to them by sophists.

Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by kbelder on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @05:03PM (#35981251)
"Now, Madam, we're just haggllng over price."
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by josephcsible on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @07:26PM (#35982506)
Censorship is a good thing as long as only things I don't like get censored!
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by uoaei on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:41PM (#35980216)
This is a false equivalence only unless you are a moral nihilist.
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by cyberbanjo on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:20PM (#35979943)
Everyone wants a censor on their side, but they rarely are
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by mywittyname on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:45PM (#35980272)
In this particular case, it's about wanting information from the people actually researching a subject vs people making stuff for political or business purposes.

Even if researchers are wrong initially, because of lack of data, they are still acting in good faith. Which you can't say for people who are spreading made up or poorly sourced information to make a buck.

Society generally frowns upon allowing people to blatantly lie or act in bad faith order to sell products. While that might be a form of censorship, it's one that society largely benefits from having in place.

Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by tracker1 on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:49PM (#35980330)
There were plenty of knowledgable scientists including those with specific familiarity that were censored because it didn't fit the media narrative at the time.
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by VancouverMan on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @04:12PM (#35980645)
> Even if researchers are wrong initially, because of lack of data, they are still acting in good faith.

A researcher or other "expert" should have at least some sense of when the data being used are limited, flawed, or even unavailable.

Under such circumstances, the only way to act in good faith would be for such a person to say something along the lines of, "I don't know" or "It's not possible to say at this time."

Such a person making some other authoritative pronouncement (even with caveats attached), especially if it turns out to be incorrect, should not be seen as "acting in good faith".

Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by drexlspivey on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:48PM (#35980318)
In this particular case, what product was sold by antivaxxers or how did they make money?
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by Danjoe4 on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:30PM (#35980071)
Much of the "antivax garbage" turned out to be true. In hindsight, do you still believe that censoring true but inconvenient information is morally acceptable?
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by berkle4455 on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:36PM (#35980136)
> turned out to be true

Like the microchips?

Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by edgyquant on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:40PM (#35980207)
They did not say all
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by berkle4455 on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:51PM (#35980369)
How about none of it.
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by AlecSchueler on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @04:14PM (#35980660)
They also gave no reason to believe the "most" claim. What actually are the things that were proven to be true that were censored as misinformation?
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by WillPostForFood on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:43PM (#35980254)
Truth is messy. The vaccine is an amazing achievement and saved many lives. Understating the health risks to young men (myocarditis), and overstating the efficacy fed the anti-vaxxers, and was a disservice to science and healthcare.
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by f6v on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @04:02PM (#35980505)
And we haven’t even talked about the prevention paradox.
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by suoduandao2 on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:54PM (#35980412)
you're avoiding the question.
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by berkle4455 on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @08:55PM (#35983029)
The fuck I am, which antivax conspiracy theor(ies) were actually proven true?
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by suoduandao2 on Thursday May 18, 2023 @06:35AM (#35986179)
That in some patients there might be adverse health effects from the vaccine. That the us funded gain of function research in novel coronaviruses. That the virus would mutate faster than the vaccine rollout and Covid would go seasonal.

And you’re still avoiding the question.

Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by digging on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @04:03PM (#35980519)
How much? Do you have any links to discussions or data that were against covid vaccination and turned out to be truthful and useful? I'm really curious because I've never heard of this in my personal information bubble, despite trying to widen it as much as I can.
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by f6v on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @04:04PM (#35980540)
It’s not inconvenient and more importantly not information. It’s annoying and not based on facts. I’d love to see any actual research done at a molecular biology lab that’d back an anti-vax fantasy. And then there’s the whole epidemiology level…
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by surgical_fire on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @04:27PM (#35980834)
> Much

[Citation Needed]

Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by bunbun69 on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @04:56PM (#35981175)
Imma need a source
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by TobyTheDog123 on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:37PM (#35980162)
This word is quickly becoming a part of the "does not mean anything" crew from its constant overuse and involvement in strawman-ing.
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by flangola7 on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:35PM (#35980129)
100% agree.
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by nomel on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:34PM (#35980115)
I somewhat agree. I don't mind if true falsehoods/spam is removed. The problem was, the "anti vax" label was applied to far too much, including things that were later found to be true.

The article I was looking for was about intravascular injection of the vaccine, and its possible relation to adverse effects, which now has merit in 2023 [1].

[1] https://pure.hud.ac.uk/en/publications/inadvertent-injection...

Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by Phil_Latio on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @04:04PM (#35980531)
"remains at the injection side" was one of the more blatant lies. The funniest lie was "a corona virus outbreak of a novel strain in close distance to a biolab which does experiments on corona viruses ... is without a doubt of natural origin!"
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by nomel on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @06:58PM (#35982291)
> "remains at the injection side" was one of the more blatant lies.

Correct: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9313234/

Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by NoMoreNicksLeft on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:25PM (#35980017)
How is your attitude not equivalent to "I can't trust myself to see things I disagree with, I am so weak-willed that there is the horrific danger that I will start believing them"?

There are reasons someone might want to find those links, even if they disagree with them. When Google hides them from you without your consent or ability to opt out, they're treating you as if you were a child. Or perhaps more like livestock.

Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by hablog on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:39PM (#35980191)
> I can't trust myself to see things I disagree with, I am so weak-willed...

The thing is, this likely is true for him. Most people are not equipped to deal with the onslaught of aggressive memes from the internet. Unfortunately, this is an unsolved social problem, and "export my memetic censorship reflex to MEGACORP" is a pretty bad way of doing things.

I think a likely way of solving this problem (protecting not-especially-high-mental-horsepower people from getting BTFO by the internet, contracting transmissible psychological diseases and so on) is that religious organizations will start offering (voluntary, in first world countries) censorship services to their members. Your DNS queries or whatever will go through the Vatican/Synod/whatever central DNS server, which will prevent you from looking at porn sites. This would probably be a very socially positive outcome for the bottom 90-something percent of people on the "strength of memetic immune system" distribution.

Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by rurp on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:52PM (#35980379)
> religious organizations will start offering (voluntary, in first world countries) censorship services to their members

I have seen something similar to this in the wild. Members of a church install spyware on their home computer that church officials can access to snoop on their internet traffic for "accountability" reasons. Members are shamed for looking at any content deemed wrong.

One young man got in trouble for looking at SFW images of models. Turned out he wasn't even the one who had visited the site, it was his sister looking at fashion ideas.

Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by hablog on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @04:39PM (#35980977)
Yeah, a friend of mine found a (non-religious) service like this for help with porn addiction. Not my cup of tea, but I could see it working for many people.
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by yamtaddle on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @04:15PM (#35980676)
> The thing is, this likely is true for him.

It's true for basically everyone. Smart people, "rationalists", et c., fall for scams, nutty scientific or conspiracy theories, advertising, romantic political or economic ideas, cults or scam-religions, and other crap all the time.

Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by hablog on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @04:38PM (#35980970)
So a fortiori, it's true for him too!

I wouldn't necessarily exclude myself from the set of people who would benefit from externally managed filtering.

Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by jbm on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:39PM (#35980184)
> I am so weak-willed that there is the horrific danger that I will start believing them

That's what "Manufacturing Consent" isn't it? That entire concept seems sound and passes the smell test. People see things repeatedly from authoritive-sounding people and they believe it (in the case of the book, by governments and their catspaws).

There is no reason a search and social bubble wouldn't wind up with a similar outcome.

Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by NoMoreNicksLeft on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @04:31PM (#35980887)
Is my authority defiance resource just cranked up to 11? I don't even like those groups I tend to agree with, and when I do find myself agreeing with them I silently sit there wondering if that somehow means I am wrong.

I only said it sarcastically about the original commenter because it's difficult to believe that anyone could truly be like that. Sure, we're all aware of the dregs who seem to form their political beliefs from Uncle Creepy's Facebook meme pictures, but I've always believed those people to be nothing more than a (sizable) minority.

Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by systems_glitch on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @05:07PM (#35981285)
It's estimated that 50-70% of the world has no inner monologue.
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by ziziyO on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:40PM (#35980202)
Humans really are that simple. A lie, when repeated enough, can become truth.
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by kevin_thibedeau on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:43PM (#35980246)
Everything related to the lab leak has been systematically suppressed for spurious reasons despite no proof that it isn't a possibility. I had Chinese national friends and colleagues (most of them party members) talking about it in January 2020 from Chinese sourced media before Western media had any awareness at all on the matter.
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by f6v on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @04:00PM (#35980481)
> despite no proof that it isn't a possibility

Because you don’t get to come up with a “theory” and dump the burden of the proof on someone else. That’s incredibly stupid. Not how how science and common sense work.

Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by STM32F030R8 on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @04:17PM (#35980715)
Since when? It may not be a good argument but should we be deplatforming people over it? Go to Reddit front page right now and try to find something that isn’t a poorly argued political post. What’s the difference? Just because you may disagree with someone it doesn’t mean they NEED to be silenced.
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by stonogo on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @04:21PM (#35980766)
Politics is about how you think things should be run. Science is about what we have evidence for. They are not the same thing.
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by ipaddr on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @04:28PM (#35980853)
Science is about coming up with a hypnosis or theory and testing it.

The evidence comes at the end not before the theory

Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by muti on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @05:06PM (#35981281)
We don't give any credence to untested hypotheses
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by stonogo on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @08:53PM (#35983013)
We generally don't employ hypnosis. Sometimes we even skip the hypothesis step, because "what the hell is that" is enough to start generating data. Don't confuse all of scientific research with the scientific method; it's just one method of investigation.
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by f6v on Thursday May 18, 2023 @02:39AM (#35984744)
A theory is usually based on some prior knowledge or observations. But let’s forget that for a second. In the anti-vax case, their argument is: “All your research in favor of vaccinating the population is wrong. We don’t have any evidence for it, but you should turn your public health policy 180 degrees!”. I don’t why it’s so hard to grasp the issue.
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by josephcsible on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @07:22PM (#35982478)
Are you saying that people shouldn't get to publicly say anything that they don't have proof of?
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by f6v on Thursday May 18, 2023 @12:39PM (#35990528)
I think in practice free speech should be limited if it’s clearly damaging. In case of anti-vax movement, it’s just crystal clear that allowing them to spread the word was detrimental to public health. So I’m in favor banning those who use their rights to free speech to undermine the policies and efforts that are put forward to save lives.

And I see how the concept of “misinformation” can be used very broadly to silence political opponents. But I do wish there was a perfect solution.

Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by josephcsible on Thursday May 18, 2023 @01:25PM (#35991276)
> I think in practice free speech should be limited if it’s clearly damaging.

The problem with that position is, who decides what counts as "clearly damaging"? What if the government and media were extremely anti-vaccine and chose to censor pro-vaccine speech instead, calling it "clearly damaging"?

Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by Lendal on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @04:02PM (#35980511)
I don't think it's spurious to require evidence first before spreading possibly false narratives.
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by SketchySeaBeast on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @04:01PM (#35980499)
> despite no proof that it isn't a possibility

That seems like a slightly tortured double negative.

Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by BizarroLand on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @04:52PM (#35981145)
It's like the argument between internet atheists and internet Christians.

Christians say God exists

Atheists say God doesn't exist.

Christians tell the atheists to prove that God doesn't exist.

Atheists say you can't disprove a negative.

Christians take that as winning the argument.

Atheists take that as Christians being stupid and close minded.

Atheists counter with telling the Christians to prove God does exist.

Christians say you have to take it on faith.

Repeat ad nauseum extremis infinitum.

Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by Jcampuzano2 on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:46PM (#35980289)
I can see both sides to the argument.

I personally don't mind deletion of antivax stuff because I'm not antivax. But I can see the point of view those mentioning what happens when there is deletion/censorship of things in the future that I could have interest in.

We also do know that there exists "some" subset of things that were mentioned that seemed antivax on the surface but did actually turn out to be true or at least somewhat true. But these were usually not outright false claims, but informed speculations or very niche.

It was such a dividing topic that any form of skepticism however small was seen as an attack. This as someone who is vaxed and has gotten every booster available.

Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by ifyoubuildit on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @05:18PM (#35981379)
> I personally don't mind deletion of antivax stuff because I'm not antivax

The term antivax is a problem.

Very few people are actually anti all vaccines, and nobody should be pro all vaccines for everyone all the time. There have been actual truly failed vaccines, are you "antivax" if you wouldn't volunteer to take them? Should articles about past failed vaccines be censored from the internet? Of course not.

The term is sloppy and careless, but people love it, probably because it lets you be part of a team. But everybody means something different by it.

Nobody should presume any new implementation of a class is good just because there have been previous successful implementations. Reality doesn't make things so easy for us.

Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by apienx on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @03:51PM (#35980360)
I'd much rather see the antivax garbage debunked. Think of it as a form of vaccination for the mind.
Re:DuckDuckGo owns the #2 position in mobile market share in... by colordrops on Wednesday May 17, 2023 @04:26PM (#35980820)
Nonsense. There isn't some super clearly defined line between pro-vaxx and anti-vaxx across the thousands of issues and questions related to covid. Science isn't anti- or pro- anything. Particular beliefs that were labeled "anti-vaxx" were often just not clear or understood yet.

Also, it's not the job of a search engine to be your nanny. What if you are researching conspiracy theories or opposition beliefs, even if you don't believe in them? How would you find them?